officials who fail to protect children would face jail

officials who fail to protect children would face jail

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R666

Original Poster:

183 posts

225 months

Tuesday 3rd March 2015
quotequote all
"Senior public officials who fail to protect children would face up to five years in jail under new measures being considered by the government.
Under the proposals, being unveiled by PM David Cameron, the crime of "wilful neglect" would be extended to cover children's social care and education.
There would also be unlimited fines for individuals and organisations shown to have let children down. "

And about time too. The apologists for what happened in Rotherham and Oxford (and no doubt dozens of other cities yet to be discovered), those who knowingly covered up these despicable crimes are no better than the perpetrators. Why we need a new law is a shame, I would have thought aiding and abetting, misconduct in office or perverting the course of justice would have covered it? Maybe a combination of all four would do the trick.

Also, should extend to withdrawing their tax funded pensions and pay offs, and include a ban from holding any public office at all, working in government, being involved with children (sex offenders register)

marshalla

15,902 posts

200 months

Tuesday 3rd March 2015
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How far up the chain will this go ? Could we see the members of various cabinets and committees facing gaol time as a result ?

RobinOakapple

2,802 posts

111 months

Tuesday 3rd March 2015
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As long as they restrict it to WILFUL neglect then I can't see a problem with it, apart from actually proving it in a court of law. But if people are to face prison because they didn't have enough resources or authority to do the job, then that would be very wrong.

Edited by RobinOakapple on Tuesday 3rd March 10:10

Jasandjules

69,825 posts

228 months

Tuesday 3rd March 2015
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Why, is there an election looming?

Bluebarge

4,519 posts

177 months

Tuesday 3rd March 2015
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I can see this leading to an abandonment of common sense in decision-making in favour of doing everything possible to avoid criticism, or potential prosecution; much finger-pointing but little action will result, and it will prove very difficult to recruit people to work in child protection. As stated above, if this fails to take account of lack of resource, it would be an absolute disgrace.

It would be far more effective if officials were actually made accountable for their actions - that means police officers being sacked rather than allowed to take early retirement; local govt officials being suspended rather than shuffled off somewhere else in the system, and politicians doing the decent thing and resigning when there have been failings on their watch.

This is pre-election window-dressing at best - expect more of the same from all of our currently useless crop of politicos.

Digga

40,206 posts

282 months

Tuesday 3rd March 2015
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Why don;t public officials get properly fired? What;s wrong with public sector HR policy?

How, for example, did the tt who was 'running' Stafford hospital during its worst years manage to drift into another public health sector job (plus pension etc. etc.) in the very next county?

R666

Original Poster:

183 posts

225 months

Tuesday 3rd March 2015
quotequote all
RobinOakapple said:
As long as they restrict it to WILFUL neglect then I can't see a problem with it, apart from actually proving it in a court of law. But if people are to face prison because they didn't have enough resources or authority to do the job, then that would be very wrong.

Edited by RobinOakapple on Tuesday 3rd March 10:10
Though a valid point I don't see anyone in Rotherham claiming lack of resources. They shut down the unit reporting the abuse to further their own agenda.

Given the gravity of the crime, I would have thought as in a business setting, If you don't have resources yourself, you have to report that upwards, and that person likewise needs to do the same. Until you find someone who can allocate resources.

Plans to make whistleblowing In this area would also make a big Impact f implemented correctly.

Bluebarge

4,519 posts

177 months

Tuesday 3rd March 2015
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R666 said:
Though a valid point I don't see anyone in Rotherham claiming lack of resources. They shut down the unit reporting the abuse to further their own agenda.

Given the gravity of the crime, I would have thought as in a business setting, If you don't have resources yourself, you have to report that upwards, and that person likewise needs to do the same. Until you find someone who can allocate resources.

Plans to make whistleblowing In this area would also make a big Impact f implemented correctly.
Am with you on the whistleblowing but resources are scarce in local govt and everyone claims they "need" more. The problem with this type of law is that it skews the decision-making: faced with a decision to allocate cash between schools or care for the elderly and child protection, all the cash will go to child protection even if it doesn't genuinely need it, because otherwise councillors could face jail time. That's why this type of knee-jerk legislation never works.

mph1977

12,467 posts

167 months

Tuesday 3rd March 2015
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RobinOakapple said:
As long as they restrict it to WILFUL neglect then I can't see a problem with it, apart from actually proving it in a court of law. But if people are to face prison because they didn't have enough resources or authority to do the job, then that would be very wrong.

Edited by RobinOakapple on Tuesday 3rd March 10:10
the simple answer to that scenario , is that when someone at the practitioner levle is reported for that, at least 2 levels of management above will also have to be investigated .

all too often we see FTP in health professionals used to cover up inadequacies of support and management at the next couple of levels in the structure ...

RobinOakapple

2,802 posts

111 months

Tuesday 3rd March 2015
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mph1977 said:
RobinOakapple said:
As long as they restrict it to WILFUL neglect then I can't see a problem with it, apart from actually proving it in a court of law. But if people are to face prison because they didn't have enough resources or authority to do the job, then that would be very wrong.

Edited by RobinOakapple on Tuesday 3rd March 10:10
the simple answer to that scenario , is that when someone at the practitioner levle is reported for that, at least 2 levels of management above will also have to be investigated .

all too often we see FTP in health professionals used to cover up inadequacies of support and management at the next couple of levels in the structure ...
FTP?

And who is going to pay for all of these investigations and the investigators?

mph1977

12,467 posts

167 months

Tuesday 3rd March 2015
quotequote all
RobinOakapple said:
mph1977 said:
RobinOakapple said:
As long as they restrict it to WILFUL neglect then I can't see a problem with it, apart from actually proving it in a court of law. But if people are to face prison because they didn't have enough resources or authority to do the job, then that would be very wrong.

Edited by RobinOakapple on Tuesday 3rd March 10:10
the simple answer to that scenario , is that when someone at the practitioner levle is reported for that, at least 2 levels of management above will also have to be investigated .

all too often we see FTP in health professionals used to cover up inadequacies of support and management at the next couple of levels in the structure ...
FTP?

And who is going to pay for all of these investigations and the investigators?
Fitness to practice

the investigations all ready take place employers / regulators / police it;s just the managers of the chosen sacrifice are treated as victims / valuable witnesses rather than accomplices or the actual transgressor.

Thorodin

2,459 posts

132 months

Tuesday 3rd March 2015
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The continual bleating from local authorities about lack of resources and 'cuts' is getting a bit too much. With every grant from central government in the past there has been the predictable rush to build and service grandiose edifices to the greater glory of officialdom. Support systems have been constructed to cope with hugely expensive growth of non-productive personal empires which are now proving to be what they always were - millstones. From new council offices, many of which have had specially commissioned heraldic crests mounted, to stretch limo's for the corporations to float on, the mountain of vanity projects seems unlimited. Cloth, the cutting of, and means spring to mind to enable sufficient funding for social services etc. Now the latest: Bercow wants billions to rebuild Parliament.

RobinOakapple

2,802 posts

111 months

Tuesday 3rd March 2015
quotequote all
mph1977 said:
Fitness to practice

the investigations all ready take place employers / regulators / police it;s just the managers of the chosen sacrifice are treated as victims / valuable witnesses rather than accomplices or the actual transgressor.
Best to avoid initials unless they are universally accepted.

We are talking here about prison- investigations to the level of court evidence, not internal discipline.

Digga

40,206 posts

282 months

Tuesday 3rd March 2015
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Bluebarge said:
this type of knee-jerk legislation never works.
It would not be necessary if the correct internal disciplinary outcomes and career penalties were applied.

Bluebarge

4,519 posts

177 months

Tuesday 3rd March 2015
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Digga said:
t would not be necessary if the correct internal disciplinary outcomes and career penalties were applied.
Agree 100% What's needed is accountability, not new laws. How many times do we have enquiries into incompetence where public bodies are found to be culpable where any fker actually gets fired? Usually someone from the PR dept is sent out to look sad in front of the cameras and promise that "lessons will be learned" and "new procedures are in place" and then they carry on exactly as before, all the while building up a whopping pension paid for by you and I.

MKnight702

3,096 posts

213 months

Tuesday 3rd March 2015
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If this crap idea ever became legislation I predict a huge increase in families having their children wrongfully removed by the authorities to err on the side of covering their arses and not risk going to jail.

mph1977

12,467 posts

167 months

Tuesday 3rd March 2015
quotequote all
RobinOakapple said:
mph1977 said:
Fitness to practice

the investigations all ready take place employers / regulators / police it;s just the managers of the chosen sacrifice are treated as victims / valuable witnesses rather than accomplices or the actual transgressor.
Best to avoid initials unless they are universally accepted.

We are talking here about prison- investigations to the level of court evidence, not internal discipline.
i don;'t think you understand the levle of evidence required for Fitness to Practice, while some parts of the process are dealt with on balance of probabilities ( the excuse for that is 'public protection') the quality of evidence for a successful fitness to practice case will have to stand up to court level scrutiny ( an FTP panel is like the most switched on Mags bench where it just so happens that one of the mags is a expert on the issues at hand - like mags they are also advised by a seperate to the prosecution Barrister / Advocate ) the prosecution always uses Counsel / Advocates and any sensible defendant will have Counsel/ Advocate ( funded by their professional association / union ).

the prosecution is also funded by the defendant through their several hundred pounds a year registration fees

carinaman

21,224 posts

171 months

Tuesday 3rd March 2015
quotequote all
R666 said:
And about time too. The apologists for what happened in Rotherham and Oxford (and no doubt dozens of other cities yet to be discovered), those who knowingly covered up these despicable crimes are no better than the perpetrators.
They are utter scum:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-26388164

The police officers that pressurised former Detective Constable Shirley Thompson that tried to do something about the child abusing associates of William Goad and their victims are also scum.

RobinOakapple

2,802 posts

111 months

Tuesday 3rd March 2015
quotequote all
mph1977 said:
i don;'t think you understand the levle of evidence required for Fitness to Practice,
You are obviously involved with this stuff in your work, but if you want to comment on it to people who have other lines of work it would be desirable to at least outline what 'Fitness to Practice' means in this context.

There's plenty about my line of work that you don't understand, but if I wanted to talk about it here I would put it into terms that you did.

fido

16,752 posts

254 months

Tuesday 3rd March 2015
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MKnight702 said:
If this crap idea ever became legislation I predict a huge increase in families having their children wrongfully removed by the authorities to err on the side of covering their arses and not risk going to jail.
And people jumping off bridges because their career is finished - this can only work if there is somewhere for whistleblowers to report to. A good example is teachers who can anonymously report to OFSTED.