GT3 Over revs - AGAIN!

GT3 Over revs - AGAIN!

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Discussion

m33ufo

4,959 posts

230 months

Thursday 5th March 2015
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ArcticGT said:
M33ufo your "guru" is most definitely wrong, or you've interpreted what they've said wrongly.
Re the 996.

Unfortunately for me (at the time), I was categorically advised that you couldn't get into either of the two rev ranges on a 996 by just accelerating into the limiter.

Back to the OP's car. Porsche will only renew warrantly on a 997 (without further investigation), if there are no hits beyond range 2. My problem with that car would be having to jump through costly hoops at every warranty renewal. And come resale, having to endure the same questioning over RR hits and likely offer a price reduction to compensate.

Edited by m33ufo on Thursday 5th March 15:25

996GT2

2,649 posts

209 months

Thursday 5th March 2015
quotequote all
m33ufo said:
Unfortunately for me (at the time), I was categorically advised that you couldn't get into either of the two rev ranges on a 996 by just accelerating into the limiter.
Whilst I was getting used to my 997 GT2 I hit the limiter in 2nd gear a few times, this added a few hundred RR1 ignitions - I was surprised by that as I thought it would only add 10 or 20. I've since worked out a technique to shift without doing this and the RRs have stayed the same for the last few years (apart from when Porsche had the car!)

I think it's a different thing with GT3s as the RR1 hits are only logged a few hundred RPM over limiter - so GT3 over-revs generally mean proper over-revs I guess, rather than rev limiter bouncing.




thegoose

8,075 posts

209 months

Thursday 5th March 2015
quotequote all
m33ufo said:
Re the 996.

Unfortunately for me (at the time), I was categorically advised that you couldn't get into either of the two rev ranges on a 996 by just accelerating into the limiter.
Sorry, but you were told wrong (as another poster has already pointed out). My 996 (Carrera) has no range 2's, on a down-shift I've never got the wrong gear nor changed down too early (which is how RR2's occur), and last time I read the ECU data it did show a recent RR1, which was commensurate with me having recently hit the limiter before up-shifting.

thegoose

8,075 posts

209 months

Thursday 5th March 2015
quotequote all
996GT2 said:
Whilst I was getting used to my 997 GT2 I hit the limiter in 2nd gear a few times, this added a few hundred RR1 ignitions - I was surprised by that as I thought it would only add 10 or 20.
As per the example that started this thread, 40 ignitions is under 1/10th second so a few hundred sounds about right based on what you've written.

BigO1977

Original Poster:

39 posts

175 months

Thursday 5th March 2015
quotequote all
m33ufo said:
Re the 996.

Unfortunately for me (at the time), I was categorically advised that you couldn't get into either of the two rev ranges on a 996 by just accelerating into the limiter.

Back to the OP's car. Porsche will only renew warrantly on a 997 (without further investigation), if there are no hits beyond range 2. My problem with that car would be having to jump through costly hoops at every warranty renewal. And come resale, having to endure the same questioning over RR hits and likely offer a price reduction to compensate.

Edited by m33ufo on Thursday 5th March 15:25
Incorrect I'm afraid - I spoke to the Main dealer yesterday about renewal of the warranty - they wouldn't need to investigate any more than on any other vehicle. No hoops to jump through at renewal time. The car was over revved over 600 hours ago - that's nearly 20,000 miles ago. The technician said that they don't even second glance a car that has over revs over 500 hours ago. However, within 0-100 hours is a different matter..... 4+ RR and they'll compression test the engine before Germany sanctions the warranty - a hoop, yes, but hardly a long and painstaking process. This is what Porsche said yesterday, so I'd favour their advice over anyone else - they're the ones that warrant the cars at the end of the day....... Not Dave down the road that used to have a Covin 911 replica with a fiesta engine. If we can't trust what the main dealer says, there's no hope for anyone buying a second hand GT3.

996GT2

2,649 posts

209 months

Thursday 5th March 2015
quotequote all
The advice is clearly different at different OPCs then as my car was compression tested with RR3 events from 600 hours ago - as I mentioned above they sold me the car with these already on it 2 years earlier. They told me that it didn't matter how long ago it was if it had a RR3+ logged it would need a compression test before a warranty would be applied.


I don't think there's clear guidance from Porsche on this as different OPCs treat it differently, it's all just a load of horsest they use as and when to book more hours in the workshop.


BigO1977

Original Poster:

39 posts

175 months

Thursday 5th March 2015
quotequote all
996GT2 said:
The advice is clearly different at different OPCs then as my car was compression tested with RR3 events from 600 hours ago - as I mentioned above they sold me the car with these already on it 2 years earlier. They told me that it didn't matter how long ago it was if it had a RR3+ logged it would need a compression test before a warranty would be applied.


I don't think there's clear guidance from Porsche on this as different OPCs treat it differently, it's all just a load of horsest they use as and when to book more hours in the workshop.
I can only comment on my local Porsche garage in Sollihul TBH - and I know they need to take their pound of flesh from every transaction!
I tried to leverage a preferential order on the new RS - unfortunately, they've been taking orders for 5 years and they have 20 orders for every 3 cars that will be made available to the dealers. It seems you can't even buy your way in these days! Maybe my transition to the i8 couldn't come at a better time!

ro51ter

4,395 posts

196 months

Thursday 5th March 2015
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BigO1977 said:
ro51ter said:
Be shocked if any op offered you anymore than 55 to 60k for that car.

Great how people try and talk up values!

The Gt3 world is now full of greed and not about car enjoyment.
Market strength and value has nothing to do with greed - if you were selling a GT3, you'd want the best money you could possibly achieve. To confirm, I've enjoyed every second of ownership and every mile of driving in the GT3 - it's an awesome car and not many others run it close - I'm also going to enjoy spending the significant amount of money I've made through 15 months of ownership. £55 - £60 k - that's less than I bought it for. You're completely out of touch with the market.


Edited by BigO1977 on Thursday 5th March 06:09
I'm aware of the both the current and previous Porsche GT market. I'm also realistic in what an opc would need to make out of a car like this one to stay in business.

We can all try and drive our car prices up, didn't this happen in the late 80s early 90s




BigO1977

Original Poster:

39 posts

175 months

Thursday 5th March 2015
quotequote all
ro51ter said:
I'm aware of the both the current and previous Porsche GT market. I'm also realistic in what an opc would need to make out of a car like this one to stay in business.

We can all try and drive our car prices up, didn't this happen in the late 80s early 90s
I think it's happened much more recently than that with the old 'last of the air cooled' promotion. Look at 993's and much more recently 964 prices, not to mention the RS and homolgation specials. The older classic 911's are increasing in value exponentially. The 911 world has gone crazy - the 991 GT3 is attracting a £40k + premium even though it's supposedly lost the 997 GT3's 'feel'. All a load of b******s if you ask me - they're all great machines in their own different way. I can't even begin to imagine what the RS is going to be advertised for when the first deliveries come through this year. Out of my price range i'd imagine! I'll end up wishing I hadn't sold my GT3. What can we do........ Find another marque? Not likely.

ro51ter

4,395 posts

196 months

Thursday 5th March 2015
quotequote all
If someone offers you over 75k rip there arm off!

Then wait two years until it all comes crashing down due to greed!

Failing that if you have true passion for a Porsche gt brand just keep driving it and enjoying it smile

These cars are made to be enjoyed, not bought as a possible quick money maker...... You are a long time dead!

IMIA

9,410 posts

200 months

Thursday 5th March 2015
quotequote all
BigO1977 said:
ro51ter said:
I'm aware of the both the current and previous Porsche GT market. I'm also realistic in what an opc would need to make out of a car like this one to stay in business.

We can all try and drive our car prices up, didn't this happen in the late 80s early 90s
I think it's happened much more recently than that with the old 'last of the air cooled' promotion. Look at 993's and much more recently 964 prices, not to mention the RS and homolgation specials. The older classic 911's are increasing in value exponentially. The 911 world has gone crazy - the 991 GT3 is attracting a £40k + premium even though it's supposedly lost the 997 GT3's 'feel'. All a load of b******s if you ask me - they're all great machines in their own different way. I can't even begin to imagine what the RS is going to be advertised for when the first deliveries come through this year. Out of my price range i'd imagine! I'll end up wishing I hadn't sold my GT3. What can we do........ Find another marque? Not likely.
You know what thinking about it if prices are up at £80-85k in your shoes I'd hold on to your car. There can't be many good crash free original panel cars out there. The RR 1-4 is irrelevant IMO. I think the GT3 may even follow in the footsteps of the 964 RS if it isn't already. Also nice to look under both a GT3 and a 964 RS and see virtually identical crankcases....

m33ufo

4,959 posts

230 months

Thursday 5th March 2015
quotequote all
BigO1977 said:
m33ufo said:
Re the 996.

Unfortunately for me (at the time), I was categorically advised that you couldn't get into either of the two rev ranges on a 996 by just accelerating into the limiter.

Back to the OP's car. Porsche will only renew warrantly on a 997 (without further investigation), if there are no hits beyond range 2. My problem with that car would be having to jump through costly hoops at every warranty renewal. And come resale, having to endure the same questioning over RR hits and likely offer a price reduction to compensate.

Edited by m33ufo on Thursday 5th March 15:25
Incorrect I'm afraid - I spoke to the Main dealer yesterday about renewal of the warranty - they wouldn't need to investigate any more than on any other vehicle. No hoops to jump through at renewal time. The car was over revved over 600 hours ago - that's nearly 20,000 miles ago. The technician said that they don't even second glance a car that has over revs over 500 hours ago. However, within 0-100 hours is a different matter..... 4+ RR and they'll compression test the engine before Germany sanctions the warranty - a hoop, yes, but hardly a long and painstaking process. This is what Porsche said yesterday, so I'd favour their advice over anyone else - they're the ones that warrant the cars at the end of the day....... Not Dave down the road that used to have a Covin 911 replica with a fiesta engine. If we can't trust what the main dealer says, there's no hope for anyone buying a second hand GT3.
Unfortunately, it doesn't even matter what your OPC says. It's all down to Porsche themselves and in my experience they'll be asking for further investigation prior to renewal of warranty.

Ultimately, it's all hassle, and we could all do without that.

BigO1977

Original Poster:

39 posts

175 months

Thursday 5th March 2015
quotequote all
IMIA said:
You know what thinking about it if prices are up at £80-85k in your shoes I'd hold on to your car. There can't be many good crash free original panel cars out there. The RR 1-4 is irrelevant IMO. I think the GT3 may even follow in the footsteps of the 964 RS if it isn't already. Also nice to look under both a GT3 and a 964 RS and see virtually identical crankcases....
If I had the room, this thread wouldn't even exist. I bought the car to keep and enjoy - I've enjoyed and have no room to keep. I suppose due to my expensive hobby, I've neglected to invest in a 3 car garage. I've only got a single garage and it's full of crap.

fioran0

2,410 posts

171 months

Thursday 5th March 2015
quotequote all
Steve Rance said:
Too much hysteria relating to rev range incidents in Mezger engines. It is a racing unit that will take 12000 rpm buzzes and hold together. I buzed a 996 Cup to nearly 12k when i missed a downshift at Castle coombe. We fitted a new clutch after quali and it ran for the races - which it won - and for another 50 hours until the end of the season. All the internals were checked during the refresh and were absolutely fine with no sign of any wear or damage.

These engine get abused all of the time in racing environments and regularly record 11-12000RPM on thier motec loggers. I dont know of any engine that failed as a result or - more tellingly - of any team that thought it appropriate to consider an immediate rebuild/refresh. They are a £40k unit to replace so if there was a hint of the need for a rebuilt, it would get done and they take a huge ammount more abuse in a racing environment compared to the road
Steve,
Be wary drawing comparisons in that way. The street engines are not the race engines when it comes to high rpms. The extra stuff that's added and/or changed on to the street engines reduces the headroom and very much forms weak points.
Motorsport reckon anything over 10k rpm should be opened and looked over to make sure but the reality is that they tend to be robust; and the clutch pressure plates break first saving the engine in practice (on the 996 anyways). The rivets pop on the restraining straps.
The variocam stuff very specifically alters the landscape with the street units (though is not the only factor or component change).
These parts cannot take the over-revs in the way the race units can.
Sadly there is not the data from street units to properly quantify precisely where limits are, and the variocam in particular responds in a complex way to dynamic events. Since not all over-revs are created equal its very difficult to set guidelines on what's ok and what's not.

I suspect this is some of the reason for the rev limit quagmire in the first place; and the shifting sand responses from Porsche over the years when it comes to the road cars is a response to a situation in which they know there's potential for problems but its impossible to neatly quantify it.

Don't get me wrong. I hate the over-rev situation and how messy it is. It's also disappointing that every mention of it turns into a blockbuster thread when stuff about cars withers quickly.



BigO1977

Original Poster:

39 posts

175 months

Thursday 5th March 2015
quotequote all
fioran0 said:
Steve,
Be wary drawing comparisons in that way. The street engines are not the race engines when it comes to high rpms. The extra stuff that's added and/or changed on to the street engines reduces the headroom and very much forms weak points.
Motorsport reckon anything over 10k rpm should be opened and looked over to make sure but the reality is that they tend to be robust; and the clutch pressure plates break first saving the engine in practice (on the 996 anyways). The rivets pop on the restraining straps.
The variocam stuff very specifically alters the landscape with the street units (though is not the only factor or component change).
These parts cannot take the over-revs in the way the race units can.
Sadly there is not the data from street units to properly quantify precisely where limits are, and the variocam in particular responds in a complex way to dynamic events. Since not all over-revs are created equal its very difficult to set guidelines on what's ok and what's not.

I suspect this is some of the reason for the rev limit quagmire in the first place; and the shifting sand responses from Porsche over the years when it comes to the road cars is a response to a situation in which they know there's potential for problems but its impossible to neatly quantify it.

Don't get me wrong. I hate the over-rev situation and how messy it is. It's also disappointing that every mention of it turns into a blockbuster thread when stuff about cars withers quickly.
The point of the thread was not to discuss the generic GT3 over rev situation but to specifically question why an engine with an over Rev in range 4 over 600 hours ago (approx 20,000 miles), that has received a compression test and been given a clean bill of health, by way of a main dealer warranty, would be considered a 'risk'? OR is this just another lamination of a subject that will continue to do the rounds on the forums until something more interesting comes along....... Like how the new RS has lost some of the 'poise and precision' of past RS's and should be avoided at all cost (approx £50k over list) wink

fioran0

2,410 posts

171 months

Thursday 5th March 2015
quotequote all
Did that ship not sail around page 1? Better swim faster if you wanna catch it.
My post was replying to Steve's. How one views that in the wider discussion is up to individuals I guess.

BigO1977

Original Poster:

39 posts

175 months

Thursday 5th March 2015
quotequote all
fioran0 said:
Did that ship not sail around page 1? Better swim faster if you wanna catch it.
My post was replying to Steve's. How one views that in the wider discussion is up to individuals I guess.
Best get my flippers on then.

SidewaysSi

10,742 posts

233 months

Thursday 5th March 2015
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I think this constant increasing in prices doesn't help anyone-those with these cars or dealers.

The Wolf

105 posts

110 months

Thursday 5th March 2015
quotequote all
My 997.1 RS had about 100-200 ignitions in Stage 1 (at 100 hours) and about 27 in Stage 2 (at 50 hours). Came with Porsche Approved, so didn't hesitate for a second.
I did some research at the time and found the following interesting (especially that stage 1 is logged as from 8400 RPM):





Up until 3 Porsche will maintain warranty and allow to extend it - as from 4 only after a thorough check-up.






One doesn't need a moneyshift to log Stage 1's. It happens in hurried upshifts. As one transitions between WOT and clutch down, letting out the clutch too early will "unload" the engine and allow it to spin ever-so-slightly above the rev limiter. Nothing serious as we all know, but that's how the occasional Range 1 shows up even for cars properly driven.






It is very possible to cause a range 1-3 over-rev situation without ever having done anything wrong. When you run WOT (wide open throttle) up to the rev limiter and the ECU cuts you off, then you dump the clutch to pick the next gear, there's so much intertia within the engine that the revs continue to climb. That's why you'll see just about every used Porsche that people are looking at come back with Range 1-3 over-revs, but often for very short periods. For example, you might see just 30 "ignitions" at Range 3, meaning just 10 Revolutions. That's not caused by somebody missing a shift because a 5-2 money shift is going to record much more.






Rev ranges - 997 GT3:
Create the VAL before deleting the fault memory. Overspeed events are documented as follows in the VAL:
Rev range 1: 8,400 -1 ... to 9,200 -1
⇒ Maximum permitted engine speed exceeded; engine damage possible.
Rev range 2: 9,200 -1 ... to 9,400 -1
⇒ Maximum permitted engine speed exceeded; engine damage possible.
Rev range 3: 9,400 -1 ... to 9,600 -1
⇒ Maximum permitted engine speed exceeded; engine damage possible.
Rev range 4: 9,600 -1 ... to 10,000 -1
⇒ Maximum permitted engine speed clearly exceeded; engine damage probable.
Rev range 5: 10,000 -1 ... to 11,000 -1
⇒ Maximum permitted engine speed very clearly exceeded; engine damage very probable.
Rev range 6: over 11,000 -1
⇒ Engine damage has generally occurred.




Hope this helps.

m33ufo

4,959 posts

230 months

Thursday 5th March 2015
quotequote all
The Wolf said:


Up until 3 Porsche will maintain warranty and allow to extend it - as from 4 only after a thorough check-up.

I'm guessing this info is quite old? You've needed further investigation for range 3 hits for a few years.