RE: G-Wagen vs Defender: PH Blog
Discussion
KillerHERTZ said:
Thats because thats the Mastonry, which is Chav, a standard one isnt.
Since they started selling the G-Wagon again in the UK they've only sold high powererd over-chromed (in my mind) bling/chav mobiles, which is a real shame for me as I'd be tempted by a lower end diesel model that I'm sure they sell in Europe.jason61c said:
The British army wanted to use G wagen's as they were quite a bit better during all the tests, however it was considered 'un-British' to use superior German stuff at the time!
Its funny because the only times and place I have heard this is on the internet forums like this one in recent years, the one person I have met who was involved in any way in doing comparable testing with the G said exactly the same as this article i.e. that it lack axle articulation.'Mr Land Rover' seems rather limited in his knowledge, or blinded by loyalty. The G-wagen was and is, a military vehicle, the Range Rover never was. They hardly made a 'fatal error' if, unlike the Defender the continued production for it's intended use is assured for many years. If talking about fatal errors, Mr Land Rover should consider why Land Rover was long ago displaced by the Land Cruiser across Africa, Australia and elsewhere.
johnOjohn said:
'Mr Land Rover' seems rather limited in his knowledge, or blinded by loyalty. The G-wagen was and is, a military vehicle, the Range Rover never was. They hardly made a 'fatal error' if, unlike the Defender the continued production for it's intended use is assured for many years. If talking about fatal errors, Mr Land Rover should consider why Land Rover was long ago displaced by the Land Cruiser across Africa, Australia and elsewhere.
JLR made a conscious decision not to seek to develop the Defender to cope with IEDs - presumably because they decided it was the wrong platform for an IED resistant vehicle. The MOD was strongly criticised by a senior SAS officer about the use of Defenders in Afghanistan because there were too many fatalities caused by IEDs. I think JLR made the right decision. How does the G-Wagen cope with IEDs?
It strikes me that all that is happening to the Defender is what happens periodically to the Unimog, to maintain or improve its utility the fundamental underpinnings need to be refreshed. This can be done whilst protecting the core purpose of the vehicle. Enjoying the outgoing models and looking forward to JLRs next generation Land Rover.
Max_Torque said:
The downside is that the Landrovers famously flexible construction has become it's Achilles Heal today, being vastly expensive and time consuming to assemble, and lacking in the necessary "precision fit" of todays robot welded, pressed steel unibodies.
Interestingly traditional land rover's are once again becoming in demand in places like Africa as modern ECU reliant car's are nearly impossible to repair in the field.Lack of technology is still the Defender's strength it would seem
It's an interesting contrast the G Wagon v Landy.
The core difference lies in the difference between the British manufacturer and the German.
Both vehicles benefited from their key customer being their respective States. What the British did was look at all these sales and make the typical assumption that the British Govt would always buy the Land Rover and as a result they didn't need to invest in it. Only investing when pushed into a corner and forced to. Conversely, the Germans took the revenue from their State sales and reinvested it in keeping the G Wagon as up to date as plausible and more importantly, expanding sales by continually seeking out new overseas buyers.
What we have now is the Defender non existent in State buying and non existent in overseas markets while the extremely similar and yet much less flexible G Wagon is still being bought by the German State and by many considerable overseas buyers.
Both cars are superb at what they do. It has been the people behind the Land Rover who have failed it pretty much from day one with their incompetence, laziness, arrogance and typical British automotive fear of change. And now it has reached the point that JLR have no choice but to pull the plug.
As a mild aside, people talk about how they were ubiquitous around the globe but conveniently forget that this was in parts under British governance or British business utilising State backing. Once that went there was almost over night no reason to buy the Land Rover. No reason because they didn't actually need the best 4x4 but the most robust and for the price that meant buying Japanese. Combined with quite a lot of politics re end of Empire and the new Asian demand for global resources etc.
Back to the modern cars, as someone who has driven both and Rangies then I can safely say that for road use the modern G Wagon beats the modern Landy, hands down but can't even get a sniff close to the league that a Rangie is in. A G Wagon would kill it's occupants trying to keep up with a Rangie, either through fear, exhaustion or the inevitable crash.
The core difference lies in the difference between the British manufacturer and the German.
Both vehicles benefited from their key customer being their respective States. What the British did was look at all these sales and make the typical assumption that the British Govt would always buy the Land Rover and as a result they didn't need to invest in it. Only investing when pushed into a corner and forced to. Conversely, the Germans took the revenue from their State sales and reinvested it in keeping the G Wagon as up to date as plausible and more importantly, expanding sales by continually seeking out new overseas buyers.
What we have now is the Defender non existent in State buying and non existent in overseas markets while the extremely similar and yet much less flexible G Wagon is still being bought by the German State and by many considerable overseas buyers.
Both cars are superb at what they do. It has been the people behind the Land Rover who have failed it pretty much from day one with their incompetence, laziness, arrogance and typical British automotive fear of change. And now it has reached the point that JLR have no choice but to pull the plug.
As a mild aside, people talk about how they were ubiquitous around the globe but conveniently forget that this was in parts under British governance or British business utilising State backing. Once that went there was almost over night no reason to buy the Land Rover. No reason because they didn't actually need the best 4x4 but the most robust and for the price that meant buying Japanese. Combined with quite a lot of politics re end of Empire and the new Asian demand for global resources etc.
Back to the modern cars, as someone who has driven both and Rangies then I can safely say that for road use the modern G Wagon beats the modern Landy, hands down but can't even get a sniff close to the league that a Rangie is in. A G Wagon would kill it's occupants trying to keep up with a Rangie, either through fear, exhaustion or the inevitable crash.
Edited by DonkeyApple on Friday 6th March 18:52
Sorry but the current Defender is a complete dog plagued with serious issues, its a loser in my book.
I've owned three of the last generation Defenders all used off road.
1 x 2007 90
1 x 2010 110
1 x 2013 110
Whilst the 2007 & 2010 did not suffer from the dreaded gearbox issues the 2013 did leaving me totally screwed for shooting. Both were used offroad throughout the shoot season. The ground covered is quite serious and I often found myself in difficulties re the power and drive train on the Defender. The last straw was when the gearbox started to seize in November of last year.
I decided to switch to a G Wagon, although its 3 times the price the difference is simply night and day. The G Wagon offers a level of compliance offroad that the Defender simply does not offer. Bear in mind that I have driven the same fields for nearly 9 years where I know every bump, rut and undulation. I know what to expect! The build quality is on a different planet and has a rear door that will stay open even on an incline, some that Landrover have failed to sort in half a century.
I'm still amazed that even with the run out models they still have no chassis protection other than a lick of paint, a gearbox that's going to fail, a windscreen that always leaks and headlights that resemble a candle (and rust).
The only thing the Defender has going for it in my opinion are the looks.
I've owned three of the last generation Defenders all used off road.
1 x 2007 90
1 x 2010 110
1 x 2013 110
Whilst the 2007 & 2010 did not suffer from the dreaded gearbox issues the 2013 did leaving me totally screwed for shooting. Both were used offroad throughout the shoot season. The ground covered is quite serious and I often found myself in difficulties re the power and drive train on the Defender. The last straw was when the gearbox started to seize in November of last year.
I decided to switch to a G Wagon, although its 3 times the price the difference is simply night and day. The G Wagon offers a level of compliance offroad that the Defender simply does not offer. Bear in mind that I have driven the same fields for nearly 9 years where I know every bump, rut and undulation. I know what to expect! The build quality is on a different planet and has a rear door that will stay open even on an incline, some that Landrover have failed to sort in half a century.
I'm still amazed that even with the run out models they still have no chassis protection other than a lick of paint, a gearbox that's going to fail, a windscreen that always leaks and headlights that resemble a candle (and rust).
The only thing the Defender has going for it in my opinion are the looks.
ChrisRS6 said:
How on earth people like the defender is beyond me?
I had one for two years through work and it was the most dreadful, unreliable , uncomfortable vehicle ever!!
A post war relic trying to be 21st century.
^^^ er, people like it precisely because it is dreadful, unreliable and uncomfortable!I had one for two years through work and it was the most dreadful, unreliable , uncomfortable vehicle ever!!
A post war relic trying to be 21st century.
I mean, i have a washing machine, it washes clothes. You open the front, put the clothes in, press a button, and half and hr later, they are clean. There is ZERO interaction or personality, hence i have absolutely no "connection" to my washing machine!
A Defender needs looking after, it needs love and attention to continue to function, and precisely because of that, people fall in love with them!!
Max_Torque said:
^^^ er, people like it precisely because it is dreadful, unreliable and uncomfortable!
I mean, i have a washing machine, it washes clothes. You open the front, put the clothes in, press a button, and half and hr later, they are clean. There is ZERO interaction or personality, hence i have absolutely no "connection" to my washing machine!
A Defender needs looking after, it needs love and attention to continue to function, and precisely because of that, people fall in love with them!!
Couldn't have put it better.I mean, i have a washing machine, it washes clothes. You open the front, put the clothes in, press a button, and half and hr later, they are clean. There is ZERO interaction or personality, hence i have absolutely no "connection" to my washing machine!
A Defender needs looking after, it needs love and attention to continue to function, and precisely because of that, people fall in love with them!!
JPF40 said:
Whilst the 2007 & 2010 did not suffer from the dreaded gearbox issues the 2013 did leaving me totally screwed for shooting. Both were used offroad throughout the shoot season. The ground covered is quite serious and I often found myself in difficulties re the power and drive train on the Defender. The last straw was when the gearbox started to seize in November of last year.
This has nothing to do with the Defender fundamentally and everything to do with the godawful drive train land rover have shoved into it.Put a Toyota engine/gearbox and axles on the thing and it would be the best thing since sliced bread.
skyrover said:
This has nothing to do with the Defender fundamentally and everything to do with the godawful drive train land rover have shoved into it.
Put a Toyota engine/gearbox and axles on the thing and it would be the best thing since sliced bread.
That would a Toyota Landcruiser Put a Toyota engine/gearbox and axles on the thing and it would be the best thing since sliced bread.
It was MB UK who positioned the G against the RR. They were twice the price of the LR at the time but they came with hose out rubber interiors at the start.. MB UK spec'ed them up with carpets etc. MB UK then failed to support G so it died in the UK .. they finally have got a grip a decade or two later as chrome bling machines but still live axles so a FFR is a different plane for a road car.
The quality is night and day.. a G propshaft is about twice the diameter of a Disco one .. so about 4 times as strong. Saying that LR front axle king pin design is better, and the wheel bolts. The front axle on the G is a bit fragile if jumped heavily but that steel body shell will do that .. but at least the occupants survive a roll..
The G predates the Defender..but not the series LRs..
mgrays said:
That would a Toyota Landcruiser
It was MB UK who positioned the G against the RR. They were twice the price of the LR at the time but they came with hose out rubber interiors at the start.. MB UK spec'ed them up with carpets etc. MB UK then failed to support G so it died in the UK .. they finally have got a grip a decade or two later as chrome bling machines but still live axles so a FFR is a different plane for a road car.
The quality is night and day.. a G propshaft is about twice the diameter of a Disco one .. so about 4 times as strong. Saying that LR front axle king pin design is better, and the wheel bolts. The front axle on the G is a bit fragile if jumped heavily but that steel body shell will do that .. but at least the occupants survive a roll..
The G predates the Defender..but not the series LRs..
A land cruiser with the defender's modular construction would be my ideal vehicle It was MB UK who positioned the G against the RR. They were twice the price of the LR at the time but they came with hose out rubber interiors at the start.. MB UK spec'ed them up with carpets etc. MB UK then failed to support G so it died in the UK .. they finally have got a grip a decade or two later as chrome bling machines but still live axles so a FFR is a different plane for a road car.
The quality is night and day.. a G propshaft is about twice the diameter of a Disco one .. so about 4 times as strong. Saying that LR front axle king pin design is better, and the wheel bolts. The front axle on the G is a bit fragile if jumped heavily but that steel body shell will do that .. but at least the occupants survive a roll..
The G predates the Defender..but not the series LRs..
I'm a fan of both the Defender and the Gelaendewagen.
As to the argument that the G-wagen only exists because of military contracts, you've obviously never been to America! For some reason, the G-wagens have become the preferred status symbol vehicle, at least in my area. They are everywhere! On some days, it's impossible to drive anywhere without seeing at least two or three. Interestingly, almost all of them are AMG models. G55 and G63 AMGs are the most common. I prefer the pre-facelift version without the blingy lower fascia and LEDs.
Unfortunately, as LR stopped importing the Defender here in 1997, the remaining ones command high prices. Six-figures for examples in good condition is not uncommon!
I've wanted one ever since I played this as a kid, back in the good old days of Windows 95:
As to the argument that the G-wagen only exists because of military contracts, you've obviously never been to America! For some reason, the G-wagens have become the preferred status symbol vehicle, at least in my area. They are everywhere! On some days, it's impossible to drive anywhere without seeing at least two or three. Interestingly, almost all of them are AMG models. G55 and G63 AMGs are the most common. I prefer the pre-facelift version without the blingy lower fascia and LEDs.
Unfortunately, as LR stopped importing the Defender here in 1997, the remaining ones command high prices. Six-figures for examples in good condition is not uncommon!
I've wanted one ever since I played this as a kid, back in the good old days of Windows 95:
smilo996 said:
You spend too much time in the UK. It has been bought by over 35 country's military forces and Over 12,000 vehicles have been delivered in over 50 versions to zee Germans alone
Wel done.
I am German and in total I've spent 1 week in the UK in my whole lifetime sofar...Wel done.
Coming back to your original argument, do you honestly believe that Mercedes is keeping the production line open because it delivered 12000 of them since 1993? You are deluded.
Just as an FYI, the war is over.
Gassing Station | General Gassing | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff