'No less than' 76 in a 50
Discussion
R8Steve said:
I've not accepted it yet, i have 21 days to decide whether i wish to do so.
Do i want to go through the hassle of taking a day off work, hiring a solicitor, going to court, etc for a gamble on whether i win or not? No, probably not as that will all add up to about a grand in itself. As the policeman knows, i'll work this out and just pay it to avoid the hassle/cost. Sad but true.
Tangentially related but I had a breakdown in my car once and had it recovered by the company whose name is at the start of the alphabet twice. Recovery driver - despite my expressed concerns about the fact the car was lowered - dragged it onto the flatbed and managed to scrape the front splitter quite badly. It was buckled by the time the car was on, and as I was with a girlfriend and it was cold, dark and wet out and the damage had already been done I didn't stand on ceremony and resolved to deal with it later.Do i want to go through the hassle of taking a day off work, hiring a solicitor, going to court, etc for a gamble on whether i win or not? No, probably not as that will all add up to about a grand in itself. As the policeman knows, i'll work this out and just pay it to avoid the hassle/cost. Sad but true.
Spoke to the breakdown company who said they would send their assessor out who proceeded - unsurprisingly - to back them up and claim that the damage must've been a result of my negligence, that I must've kerbed it prior to the breakdown. Claim dismissed.
Took legal advice and was straight up told that I had a fair chance of success but that the costs of litigation would likely exceed the cost of a repair or replacement of the splitter. So that's what I ultimately ended up doing, for much the same reasons - factoring in time off, loss of use of the car, etc it would've just been too much aggro.
I was in the right, but the company was never held to account.
Unfortunately the cost of seeking justice for matters such as that, and in your case, can easily exceed the cost of settlement. Even if you (or I) won on the day in court you would've expended some effort, suffered some stress, etc in getting there. I swear these things are often pitched at a level where it becomes financially imprudent to litigate - had your FPN been for £1000 I guess like most you'd have pushed it further, gummed up the legal system for a day, etc. As it is, for £100, it becomes a matter of pure principal alone to pursue litigation - and even then with the system stacked the way it is, with a statement being enough evidence to convict you, your odds of success are poor.
julian64 said:
Honestly I think you're getting your knickers in a twist here. If someone had nicked your car and was stopped speeding you would hope the poilce would be asking questions to see how easily you answered them. Asking someone what they do for a living and fitting it to an expected income and then relating that to the car seems to be a reasonable thing to do.
Other than that if your car gets nicked and the scrote accidently gets pulled over for speeding you would be happy for the policeman to ask no questions for fear of making him feel awkward?
It would be tough for the police otherwise. Not allowed to profile based on age sex colour, now not allwoed to profile by asking questions!
Roll on star trek mind melding.
You're probably right, as i said though, i'll get over it after a rant. If you had been privy to the full 'interrogation/lecture' you would see where i was coming from. It's a bit of a stereotype to assume based on the answer of job/income whether you can or can not afford something right enough.Other than that if your car gets nicked and the scrote accidently gets pulled over for speeding you would be happy for the policeman to ask no questions for fear of making him feel awkward?
It would be tough for the police otherwise. Not allowed to profile based on age sex colour, now not allwoed to profile by asking questions!
Roll on star trek mind melding.
Durzel said:
R8Steve said:
I've not accepted it yet, i have 21 days to decide whether i wish to do so.
Do i want to go through the hassle of taking a day off work, hiring a solicitor, going to court, etc for a gamble on whether i win or not? No, probably not as that will all add up to about a grand in itself. As the policeman knows, i'll work this out and just pay it to avoid the hassle/cost. Sad but true.
Tangentially related but I had a breakdown in my car once and had it recovered by the company whose name is at the start of the alphabet twice. Recovery driver - despite my expressed concerns about the fact the car was lowered - dragged it onto the flatbed and managed to scrape the front splitter quite badly. It was buckled by the time the car was on, and as I was with a girlfriend and it was cold, dark and wet out and the damage had already been done I didn't stand on ceremony and resolved to deal with it later.Do i want to go through the hassle of taking a day off work, hiring a solicitor, going to court, etc for a gamble on whether i win or not? No, probably not as that will all add up to about a grand in itself. As the policeman knows, i'll work this out and just pay it to avoid the hassle/cost. Sad but true.
Spoke to the breakdown company who said they would send their assessor out who proceeded - unsurprisingly - to back them up and claim that the damage must've been a result of my negligence, that I must've kerbed it prior to the breakdown. Claim dismissed.
Took legal advice and was straight up told that I had a fair chance of success but that the costs of litigation would likely exceed the cost of a repair or replacement of the splitter. So that's what I ultimately ended up doing, for much the same reasons - factoring in time off, loss of use of the car, etc it would've just been too much aggro.
I was in the right, but the company was never held to account.
Unfortunately the cost of seeking justice for matters such as that, and in your case, can easily exceed the cost of settlement. Even if you (or I) won on the day in court you would've expended some effort, suffered some stress, etc in getting there. I swear these things are often pitched at a level where it becomes financially imprudent to litigate - had your FPN been for £1000 I guess like most you'd have pushed it further, gummed up the legal system for a day, etc. As it is, for £100, it becomes a matter of pure principal alone to pursue litigation - and even then with the system stacked the way it is, with a statement being enough evidence to convict you, your odds of success are poor.
julian64 said:
Honestly I think you're getting your knickers in a twist here. If someone had nicked your car and was stopped speeding you would hope the poilce would be asking questions to see how easily you answered them. Asking someone what they do for a living and fitting it to an expected income and then relating that to the car seems to be a reasonable thing to do.
Other than that if your car gets nicked and the scrote accidently gets pulled over for speeding you would be happy for the policeman to ask no questions for fear of making him feel awkward?
It would be tough for the police otherwise. Not allowed to profile based on age sex colour, now not allwoed to profile by asking questions!
Roll on star trek mind melding.
Exactly this. Does make me laugh. I wonder who would be the first to rant, had his car been stolen, stopped by police, and then let on its way through not enough questions being asked. Other than that if your car gets nicked and the scrote accidently gets pulled over for speeding you would be happy for the policeman to ask no questions for fear of making him feel awkward?
It would be tough for the police otherwise. Not allowed to profile based on age sex colour, now not allwoed to profile by asking questions!
Roll on star trek mind melding.
Mk3Spitfire said:
Exactly this. Does make me laugh. I wonder who would be the first to rant, had his car been stolen, stopped by police, and then let on its way through not enough questions being asked.
No idea as that situation hasn't arisen. I'll let you know if it does though.It's a patronising question when asked in the way it was, that's my opinion whether you believe it to be justified or not.
I note you overlook the fact that they made up a speed to fit a charge and threatened to take me down to the station to 'make sure i was who i said i was'
Maybe we're closer to having ID cards than we think
R8Steve said:
No idea as that situation hasn't arisen. I'll let you know if it does though.
It's a patronising question when asked in the way it was, that's my opinion whether you believe it to be justified or not.
I note you overlook the fact that they made up a speed to fit a charge and threatened to take me down to the station to 'make sure i was who i said i was'
Maybe we're closer to having ID cards than we think
I didn't overlook anything. It's a patronising question when asked in the way it was, that's my opinion whether you believe it to be justified or not.
I note you overlook the fact that they made up a speed to fit a charge and threatened to take me down to the station to 'make sure i was who i said i was'
Maybe we're closer to having ID cards than we think
The police could have been lying. You could have been lying. I don't know either you or the cops, and wasn't there, so would be silly to speculate.
Was it a threat? Or was it a fact? If they believed the car was stolen, they could have done just that. Arrested you, and out you on a livescan.
PNC doesn't prove the person driving is the owner/insured. You telling them you're jo bloggs might not be enough. Believe it or not, car thieves don't always tell the truth.
It's half two in the morning, you're wearing gym clothes and, as we keep hearing, you were driving a nice car. Might have looked suspicious to them?
Like I said, I don't know you and I don't know them.
Mk3Spitfire said:
R8Steve said:
No idea as that situation hasn't arisen. I'll let you know if it does though.
It's a patronising question when asked in the way it was, that's my opinion whether you believe it to be justified or not.
I note you overlook the fact that they made up a speed to fit a charge and threatened to take me down to the station to 'make sure i was who i said i was'
Maybe we're closer to having ID cards than we think
I didn't overlook anything. It's a patronising question when asked in the way it was, that's my opinion whether you believe it to be justified or not.
I note you overlook the fact that they made up a speed to fit a charge and threatened to take me down to the station to 'make sure i was who i said i was'
Maybe we're closer to having ID cards than we think
The police could have been lying. You could have been lying. I don't know either you or the cops, and wasn't there, so would be silly to speculate.
Was it a threat? Or was it a fact? If they believed the car was stolen, they could have done just that. Arrested you, and out you on a livescan.
PNC doesn't prove the person driving is the owner/insured. You telling them you're jo bloggs might not be enough. Believe it or not, car thieves don't always tell the truth.
It's half two in the morning, you're wearing gym clothes and, as we keep hearing, you were driving a nice car. Might have looked suspicious to them?
Like I said, I don't know you and I don't know them.
So without an ID card or some sort of ID i am potentially at risk of being arrested every time i go out?
I understand what you are saying and understand why that question may be asked, i believe had you been there you would have agreed it could have been handled better.
How would livescan out me out of curiosity? I'm not familiar with what that is.
Mk3S.
As you have likely spotted I am not a Police basher by nature, but am happy to hold anyone to account when I think that they have stepped out of line.
When I was younger I seemed to be getting stopped by patrol cars almost every other week as I was in and out of all sorts of nice machinery (all fully in compliance with law) which you would not have expected to see a young lad in in Kidderminster in the early '90's in the early hours.
Most of my interactions with Officers were very satisfactory with no, or the minimum of, needle, even if they have still ended up giving me a memento like the odd HORT1 or on one occasion a well earned FPN. Questions were asked in a polite and sensible manner with appropriate tone. Some however chose to use the opportunity to engage me in what one might term an 'aggressive and provocative' manner. Their demeanour and intonation was very much of that of someone who thought themselves beyond reproach and who could address me as they saw fit, without me being able to return the discourtesy without risking further time wasting or possibly worse.
Some officers seem to take a perverse delight in making people feel more uncomfortable that they need to. I am sure that they will say that they are just doing their job. There are a lot of people who have used that line, as if it is an excuse for their behaviour.
As you have likely spotted I am not a Police basher by nature, but am happy to hold anyone to account when I think that they have stepped out of line.
When I was younger I seemed to be getting stopped by patrol cars almost every other week as I was in and out of all sorts of nice machinery (all fully in compliance with law) which you would not have expected to see a young lad in in Kidderminster in the early '90's in the early hours.
Most of my interactions with Officers were very satisfactory with no, or the minimum of, needle, even if they have still ended up giving me a memento like the odd HORT1 or on one occasion a well earned FPN. Questions were asked in a polite and sensible manner with appropriate tone. Some however chose to use the opportunity to engage me in what one might term an 'aggressive and provocative' manner. Their demeanour and intonation was very much of that of someone who thought themselves beyond reproach and who could address me as they saw fit, without me being able to return the discourtesy without risking further time wasting or possibly worse.
Some officers seem to take a perverse delight in making people feel more uncomfortable that they need to. I am sure that they will say that they are just doing their job. There are a lot of people who have used that line, as if it is an excuse for their behaviour.
R8Steve said:
I have never mentioned what kind of car i was driving.
So without an ID card or some sort of ID i am potentially at risk of being arrested every time i go out?
I understand what you are saying and understand why that question may be asked, i believe had you been there you would have agreed it could have been handled better.
How would livescan out me out of curiosity? I'm not familiar with what that is.
Sorry, that was autocorrect playing its part. Or my fat fingers.So without an ID card or some sort of ID i am potentially at risk of being arrested every time i go out?
I understand what you are saying and understand why that question may be asked, i believe had you been there you would have agreed it could have been handled better.
How would livescan out me out of curiosity? I'm not familiar with what that is.
It should say "put" you on livescan, not "out" you.
Livescan is the fingerprint machine which can be used to confirm identity. Obviously this is assuming your prints are on record, so not directly related to you personally as I have no clue if yours are!
It's easy for people to judge who weren't there. I guess the only people who really know what happened are you, and the police.
Rude-boy said:
Mk3S.
As you have likely spotted I am not a Police basher by nature, but am happy to hold anyone to account when I think that they have stepped out of line.
When I was younger I seemed to be getting stopped by patrol cars almost every other week as I was in and out of all sorts of nice machinery (all fully in compliance with law) which you would not have expected to see a young lad in in Kidderminster in the early '90's in the early hours.
Most of my interactions with Officers were very satisfactory with no, or the minimum of, needle, even if they have still ended up giving me a memento like the odd HORT1 or on one occasion a well earned FPN. Questions were asked in a polite and sensible manner with appropriate tone. Some however chose to use the opportunity to engage me in what one might term an 'aggressive and provocative' manner. Their demeanour and intonation was very much of that of someone who thought themselves beyond reproach and who could address me as they saw fit, without me being able to return the discourtesy without risking further time wasting or possibly worse.
Some officers seem to take a perverse delight in making people feel more uncomfortable that they need to. I am sure that they will say that they are just doing their job. There are a lot of people who have used that line, as if it is an excuse for their behaviour.
Oh, I KNOW those ones are out there, because from time to time, I have the misfortune of having to work with them. As you have likely spotted I am not a Police basher by nature, but am happy to hold anyone to account when I think that they have stepped out of line.
When I was younger I seemed to be getting stopped by patrol cars almost every other week as I was in and out of all sorts of nice machinery (all fully in compliance with law) which you would not have expected to see a young lad in in Kidderminster in the early '90's in the early hours.
Most of my interactions with Officers were very satisfactory with no, or the minimum of, needle, even if they have still ended up giving me a memento like the odd HORT1 or on one occasion a well earned FPN. Questions were asked in a polite and sensible manner with appropriate tone. Some however chose to use the opportunity to engage me in what one might term an 'aggressive and provocative' manner. Their demeanour and intonation was very much of that of someone who thought themselves beyond reproach and who could address me as they saw fit, without me being able to return the discourtesy without risking further time wasting or possibly worse.
Some officers seem to take a perverse delight in making people feel more uncomfortable that they need to. I am sure that they will say that they are just doing their job. There are a lot of people who have used that line, as if it is an excuse for their behaviour.
That said though, sometimes, a more authoritative approach is needed in some situations.
I don't agree with overbearing or "aggressive" attitudes, but sometimes the nicely nicely approach just doesn't work.
A couple of weeks ago, I came across a guy who we were potentially going to nick. This guy was huge, I mean man mountain, 7 foot tall and built like Arnie, huge. We spoke to him and he basically said if we nicked him he would rip our heads off...and I have no doubt he would have. Bizzarely, the nicey nicey approach worked wonders, and my head is still very much attached. Others though, unless you stand your ground, will walk all over you.
Rude-boy said:
Mk3S.
Most of my interactions with Officers were very satisfactory with no, or the minimum of, needle, even if they have still ended up giving me a memento like the odd HORT1 or on one occasion a well earned FPN. Questions were asked in a polite and sensible manner with appropriate tone. Some however chose to use the opportunity to engage me in what one might term an 'aggressive and provocative' manner. Their demeanour and intonation was very much of that of someone who thought themselves beyond reproach and who could address me as they saw fit, without me being able to return the discourtesy without risking further time wasting or possibly worse.
This is generally how it goes regardless of whether you are in the right or in the wrong.Most of my interactions with Officers were very satisfactory with no, or the minimum of, needle, even if they have still ended up giving me a memento like the odd HORT1 or on one occasion a well earned FPN. Questions were asked in a polite and sensible manner with appropriate tone. Some however chose to use the opportunity to engage me in what one might term an 'aggressive and provocative' manner. Their demeanour and intonation was very much of that of someone who thought themselves beyond reproach and who could address me as they saw fit, without me being able to return the discourtesy without risking further time wasting or possibly worse.
The thing to keep in mind is that if you really do believe you are in the right but the Police who stop you are trying their best to get you for something, you're best bet is to not admit to anything and wait for your day in Court to prove them wrong. Generally, you will have a higher rate of success with this approach than arguing it out with them at the roadside.
Mk3Spitfire said:
R8Steve said:
I have never mentioned what kind of car i was driving.
So without an ID card or some sort of ID i am potentially at risk of being arrested every time i go out?
I understand what you are saying and understand why that question may be asked, i believe had you been there you would have agreed it could have been handled better.
How would livescan out me out of curiosity? I'm not familiar with what that is.
Sorry, that was autocorrect playing its part. Or my fat fingers.So without an ID card or some sort of ID i am potentially at risk of being arrested every time i go out?
I understand what you are saying and understand why that question may be asked, i believe had you been there you would have agreed it could have been handled better.
How would livescan out me out of curiosity? I'm not familiar with what that is.
It should say "put" you on livescan, not "out" you.
Livescan is the fingerprint machine which can be used to confirm identity. Obviously this is assuming your prints are on record, so not directly related to you personally as I have no clue if yours are!
It's easy for people to judge who weren't there. I guess the only people who really know what happened are you, and the police.
Yep, I do agree that there are some who need the more forceful approach. For me it is a question though of start of nice and 9/10 you will find that it will get the right result with most people. Only if they start to act the pillock do you need to remind them of your authority. As Mk3S said even a man mountain can be an easy tug if treated like a human, whereas an aggressive approach could easily have resulted in a most unsatisfactory outcome for all!
I must also say that I am sure that it is a real pain for the more socially able officers to have to deal with less able colleagues as they try to show a united front whilst secretly wishing to wrap their baton around their colleague's head
To balance things I must add that my other interaction last year was very courteous and 100% faultless in the Officers demeanour and approach. Now if anyone knows the answer to if backlit registration plates are illegal, and therefore a car built before the legislation relating to standard fonts and materials was put in force should now have be modified to allow the opaque ones to be lit, or if they are still legal both I and a TrafPol who has the A12 in their patch would love to know!
I must also say that I am sure that it is a real pain for the more socially able officers to have to deal with less able colleagues as they try to show a united front whilst secretly wishing to wrap their baton around their colleague's head
FurtiveFreddy said:
The thing to keep in mind is that if you really do believe you are in the right but the Police who stop you are trying their best to get you for something, you're best bet is to not admit to anything and wait for your day in Court to prove them wrong. Generally, you will have a higher rate of success with this approach than arguing it out with them at the roadside.
I do very slightly disagree with this. Whilst it is pointless to argue with an intransigent officer who believes that they are correct it is not impossible if done so with as much tact and diplomacy as you can. I had an officer last year try to tell me that it was an offence to sound a car horn at 8pm in a town centre and that with both hands off the steering wheel I was not in proper control of my stationary vehicle. We both parted with a smile and a handshake but it really didn't look likely to go that way on first contact... I am much happier that it went that way than that we ended up wasting a lot of each others time, especially as I would not have been being paid for mine...To balance things I must add that my other interaction last year was very courteous and 100% faultless in the Officers demeanour and approach. Now if anyone knows the answer to if backlit registration plates are illegal, and therefore a car built before the legislation relating to standard fonts and materials was put in force should now have be modified to allow the opaque ones to be lit, or if they are still legal both I and a TrafPol who has the A12 in their patch would love to know!
Don't get me wrong, I'll always try and talk my way out of a 'situation' and resolve any issues at the initial meeting (and have done so on many occasions) but there are times with some people (not just officers of the law) when you know after a while you're not going to make any headway, so in those situations I'd rather re-group later and tackle it from another angle.
Usually by going higher up the food chain.
Usually by going higher up the food chain.
Rude-boy said:
You have a very good point but there are a significant number of people who would rather take the pain of a fine and a few points over the days off for court, possible legal fees, and stress of such a case (and it is stressful, even if there is little more than a few affordable pounds to lose). Let us face it the alternative is that you are standing in a court room telling 1-3 people who have heard every excuse under the sun 1001 times that 2 Policemen are liars and are risking their pensions for bag a speeder...
and once you prove them to be lying in court all that happens is the case is dropped and they receive no sanctions. imo,once any officer has been shown to have lied in a statement they should be sacked as any further evidence they provide in the form of statements of what they have witnessed could and should be called into question based on previous evidence of lying.i am surprised lawyers do not have a list of of officers shown to have lied in statements to highlight to the courts in future cases involving those officers.
no problem here taking points/fines when police have followed the rules ,big problem as soon as they start lying.
wc98,
I have not got any first hand experience that is recent enough to be of value but can say from my days as a trainee doing Police Station duty back in 99/00 it was well known in the office which officers only differed from the Clients in that they had a badge...
That said I do agree that officers who fall seriously short should be censured far more than they appear to be, but then we only hear about the newsworthy stuff. That said there are some fantastic officers who can occasionally genuinely be mistaken or make an error that is enough to have a case thrown out whilst no one is actually in any doubt as to guilt. I would like to think myself a reasonable man and so would not like to see minor honest mistakes in evidence end careers, blatant liars though have no place on the right side of the thin blue line.
I have not got any first hand experience that is recent enough to be of value but can say from my days as a trainee doing Police Station duty back in 99/00 it was well known in the office which officers only differed from the Clients in that they had a badge...
That said I do agree that officers who fall seriously short should be censured far more than they appear to be, but then we only hear about the newsworthy stuff. That said there are some fantastic officers who can occasionally genuinely be mistaken or make an error that is enough to have a case thrown out whilst no one is actually in any doubt as to guilt. I would like to think myself a reasonable man and so would not like to see minor honest mistakes in evidence end careers, blatant liars though have no place on the right side of the thin blue line.
Rude-boy said:
wc98,
I have not got any first hand experience that is recent enough to be of value but can say from my days as a trainee doing Police Station duty back in 99/00 it was well known in the office which officers only differed from the Clients in that they had a badge...
That said I do agree that officers who fall seriously short should be censured far more than they appear to be, but then we only hear about the newsworthy stuff. That said there are some fantastic officers who can occasionally genuinely be mistaken or make an error that is enough to have a case thrown out whilst no one is actually in any doubt as to guilt. I would like to think myself a reasonable man and so would not like to see minor honest mistakes in evidence end careers, blatant liars though have no place on the right side of the thin blue line.
absolutely agree,and to balance the previous post i have had an officer give favourable evidence in court that probably saved me from a ban,when he had no need to do so. as you say ,there are bad apples in all walks of life and due to the nature of the job those in the police tend to get highlighted a bit more than others.I have not got any first hand experience that is recent enough to be of value but can say from my days as a trainee doing Police Station duty back in 99/00 it was well known in the office which officers only differed from the Clients in that they had a badge...
That said I do agree that officers who fall seriously short should be censured far more than they appear to be, but then we only hear about the newsworthy stuff. That said there are some fantastic officers who can occasionally genuinely be mistaken or make an error that is enough to have a case thrown out whilst no one is actually in any doubt as to guilt. I would like to think myself a reasonable man and so would not like to see minor honest mistakes in evidence end careers, blatant liars though have no place on the right side of the thin blue line.
R8Steve said:
I have never mentioned what kind of car i was driving.
So without an ID card or some sort of ID i am potentially at risk of being arrested every time i go out?
I understand what you are saying and understand why that question may be asked, i believe had you been there you would have agreed it could have been handled better.
How would livescan out me out of curiosity? I'm not familiar with what that is.
No you are not, however if you are driving at 26mph more than you are allowed to at 0230 then you are at risk of a short set of questions to establish who you are and what you are up to.So without an ID card or some sort of ID i am potentially at risk of being arrested every time i go out?
I understand what you are saying and understand why that question may be asked, i believe had you been there you would have agreed it could have been handled better.
How would livescan out me out of curiosity? I'm not familiar with what that is.
Personally I woudl be glad to assist the police if they stopped me at that time in the morning; it's great to hear they do that sort of thing.
Maybe you are just pi55ed-off at being given a ticket for 76mph a 50mph limit...go on, admit it.
Well done to the police by-the-way.
hole testOP, maybe consider spending a few quid on a discreet, GPS enabled dashcam. If this sort of thing happens again, you can either prove or disprove the allegations when you review the footage.
Granted, there would be discussions around eligibility of the evidence, however if you did decide to challenge their allegations, you would need every bit of supporting evidence you can find.
Of course, if the allegation was "75+ in a 50" and your review of the footage says "65 in a 50" - you're still "bang to rights" though I guess it would depend on the punishment metered - ie if you were facing a summons, not an FPN.
Granted, there would be discussions around eligibility of the evidence, however if you did decide to challenge their allegations, you would need every bit of supporting evidence you can find.
Of course, if the allegation was "75+ in a 50" and your review of the footage says "65 in a 50" - you're still "bang to rights" though I guess it would depend on the punishment metered - ie if you were facing a summons, not an FPN.
Gassing Station | Speed, Plod & the Law | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff