150 mph M25 8-10

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Discussion

Devil2575

13,400 posts

187 months

Thursday 26th March 2015
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Kawasicki said:
My point is as follows. Relative to the rest of world the UK has a very good standard of driving and it is relatively "safe".

To believe otherwise is plainly wrong.

And yes, there are a few muppets on the road, and most people ignore motorway speed limits to varying degrees. Your recipe for disaster is already mixed, yet the stats shows that UK motorways are relatively safe, so something is stopping your disaster from unfolding. Probably the same thing that stops the disaster from unfolding on German autobahns. The judgement of the vast majority of the population is pretty good, they don't want injuries and death, so they protect themselves.
I agree with this.


Red 4

10,744 posts

186 months

Thursday 26th March 2015
quotequote all
Kawasicki said:
1. And yes, there are a few muppets on the road, and most people ignore motorway speed limits to varying degrees. Your recipe for disaster is already mixed, yet the stats shows that UK motorways are relatively safe, so something is stopping your disaster from unfolding.

2. Probably the same thing that stops the disaster from unfolding on German autobahns. The judgement of the vast majority of the population is pretty good, they don't want injuries and death, so they protect themselves.
1. It appears you have misunderstood or deliberately misquoted my post. The "recipe for disaster" is not already mixed. The same speed limits apply to everyone, depending on the class of road and what vehicle they are driving.

My point was that some people think they are better than others and are advocating higher speed limits applicable only to them.

2. About half of the Autobahn is restricted. As I understand it the speed limit on restricted sections is variable but it is enforced.
The Autobahn is not the race track many people think it is.
We'll have to agree to disagree on "the judgement of the vast majority of the population being good".
I drove police vehicles for many years - big white things with reflective markings, flashy blue lights and sirens which appeared to be invisible to many people.
The general public's response to/ awareness of anything closing on them at speed is, in my experience, poor.
My opinion is based on experience. Your opinion appears to be based on, well, opinion.

LoonR1

26,988 posts

176 months

Thursday 26th March 2015
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xjay1337 said:
Oh, aren't you a big man with a keyboard and an attitude. rolleyes


I know full well how the Unrestricted Autobahn system works in Germany.
Let's not consider, for a moment, that the M25 is in effect an Autobahn. With twice the lanes in most places.
It's not really though is it. It's bumpy and poorly surfaced, it's highly congested. Oh and that quite important piece is that it's governed by a legally enforceable speed limit of 70mph.

And aren't you the smug "look at me I've driven in Germany so am an expert" type.

Red 4

10,744 posts

186 months

Thursday 26th March 2015
quotequote all
LoonR1 said:
xjay1337 said:
Oh, aren't you a big man with a keyboard and an attitude. rolleyes


I know full well how the Unrestricted Autobahn system works in Germany.
Let's not consider, for a moment, that the M25 is in effect an Autobahn. With twice the lanes in most places.
It's not really though is it. It's bumpy and poorly surfaced, it's highly congested. Oh and that quite important piece is that it's governed by a legally enforceable speed limit of 70mph.

And aren't you the smug "look at me I've driven in Germany so am an expert" type.
The car park that is known as the M25 would, undoubtedly, be a RESTRICTED section of Autobahn.

xjay's example is poor (and shows a lack of understanding of the Autobahn).


daveinhampshire

527 posts

125 months

Thursday 26th March 2015
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I don't understand why we compare roads on a tiny little island like this to the relatively unpopulated continent.

LoonR1

26,988 posts

176 months

Thursday 26th March 2015
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daveinhampshire said:
I don't understand why we compare roads on a tiny little island like this to the relatively unpopulated continent.
Because Autobahn.

Everyone forgets all the other European countries and their damn limits wink

daveinhampshire

527 posts

125 months

Thursday 26th March 2015
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LoonR1 said:
Because Autobahn.

Everyone forgets all the other European countries and their damn limits wink
Why don't you move their then?

LoonR1

26,988 posts

176 months

Thursday 26th March 2015
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daveinhampshire said:
Why don't you move their then?
Eh? I'm not an advocate of derestricted roads.

xjay1337

15,966 posts

117 months

Thursday 26th March 2015
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LoonR1 said:
It's not really though is it. It's bumpy and poorly surfaced, it's highly congested. Oh and that quite important piece is that it's governed by a legally enforceable speed limit of 70mph.

And aren't you the smug "look at me I've driven in Germany so am an expert" type.
Shows you being completely wrong.
I haven't driven in Germany at all.

  • awaits the - "well you haven't even been there so shut up!" comments*.
Damned if you do, damned if you don't.

I went from Cobham Services on the M25 to my house (in Thatcham), average speed was 74.
Bearing in mind the last 5 miles of my journey at in a 30mph limit, and I don't speed in 30mph zones.
Not all sections of all motorways are suitable for high speeds. But plenty are.

Point being, I didn't nearly crash once.

Edited by xjay1337 on Thursday 26th March 16:59

Kawasicki

13,041 posts

234 months

Thursday 26th March 2015
quotequote all
Red 4 said:
1. It appears you have misunderstood or deliberately misquoted my post. The "recipe for disaster" is not already mixed. The same speed limits apply to everyone, depending on the class of road and what vehicle they are driving.
The same speed limits apply to everyone, yes, but compliance with limits is low, indeed some people choose to speed to varying degrees(LoonR1 & myself included). These same people currently share the roads with the people we call muppets. So the situation your worried about already exits in the UK, but since the UK motorways are relatively safe it doesn't seem to cause a major problem.

Red 4 said:
My opinion is based on experience. Your opinion appears to be based on, well, opinion.
Your attempting to get an advantage in the discussion based on your belief you have a superior opinion, weak, 2/10. Opinion based on experience is still just an opinion, but if we are bringing up experience...what do you know of mine? Imagine if I had more experience than you. It could be true you know!

Kawasicki

13,041 posts

234 months

Thursday 26th March 2015
quotequote all
LoonR1 said:
daveinhampshire said:
Why don't you move their then?
Eh? I'm not an advocate of derestricted roads.
No, just of speeding on restricted ones.

I'd also suggest moving there.

Red 4

10,744 posts

186 months

Thursday 26th March 2015
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Kawasicki said:
Your attempting to get an advantage in the discussion based on your belief you have a superior opinion, weak, 2/10. Opinion based on experience is still just an opinion, but if we are bringing up experience...what do you know of mine? Imagine if I had more experience than you. It could be true you know!
I doubt you'd make the comments you have on this thread if you had more experience of the driving standards in this country than me.


Kawasicki

13,041 posts

234 months

Thursday 26th March 2015
quotequote all
Red 4 said:
I doubt you'd make the comments you have on this thread if you had more experience of the driving standards in this country than me.
My opinion/comments are backed up not only by experience, but by basic statistics, i.e. UK roads are relatively safe.

Your experience and the statistics seem to clash.

LoonR1

26,988 posts

176 months

Thursday 26th March 2015
quotequote all
xjay1337 said:
Shows you being completely wrong.
I haven't driven in Germany at all.

  • awaits the - "well you haven't even been there so shut up!" comments*.
Damned if you do, damned if you don't.

I went from Cobham Services on the M25 to my house (in Thatcham), average speed was 74.
Bearing in mind the last 5 miles of my journey at in a 30mph limit, and I don't speed in 30mph zones.
Not all sections of all motorways are suitable for high speeds. But plenty are.

Point being, I didn't nearly crash once.

Edited by xjay1337 on Thursday 26th March 16:59
And as you seem so keen to apply your sample of one as if it somehow means all journeys will be like this. What happens when you or someone else does "nearly crash" or worse actually does crash?

Red 4

10,744 posts

186 months

Thursday 26th March 2015
quotequote all
Kawasicki said:
My opinion/comments are backed up not only by experience, but by basic statistics, i.e. UK roads are relatively safe.

Your experience and the statistics seem to clash.
What is your experience ? Driving on UK roads ?

Do you consider that driving standards in this country are good ? Please don't use accident statistics or compare the UK to India or Vietnam - I'm asking what you think.

Do you think the motorway speed limit should be raised ? If so, what to ?

What about single carriageway national speed limits ?





Phatboy317

801 posts

117 months

Friday 27th March 2015
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Red 4 said:
I drove police vehicles for many years - big white things with reflective markings, flashy blue lights and sirens which appeared to be invisible to many people.
In my experience, driver behaviour changes markedly when there's a police car around - and generally not for the better.
Whenever you see the traffic bunching up on the motorway with lane discipline suddenly disappearing and brake lights flashing regularly, for no apparent reason, it's pretty likely there's a police car somewhere up ahead.
And when there's a police car with lights and sirens, well their senses seem to desert them entirely - they just stop, often in the middle of the road.

But it's also true that one tends to notice only the few bad drivers - the thousands of good drivers tend not to do anything to make themselves noticed.

Red 4 said:
The general public's response to/ awareness of anything closing on them at speed is, in my experience, poor.
Why should it be poorer than in other countries?


Edited by Phatboy317 on Friday 27th March 07:33

Kawasicki

13,041 posts

234 months

Friday 27th March 2015
quotequote all
Red 4 said:
What is your experience ?
Estimate about 1 million miles, driven internationally.

Red 4 said:
Driving on UK roads ?
Yes, many years.

Red 4 said:
Do you consider that driving standards in this country are good ? Please don't use accident statistics or compare the UK to India or Vietnam - I'm asking what you think.
Yes, very good, most drivers are patient, not agressive and reasonably attentive. There are a few poor drivers about, but they usually stand out, for obvious reasons. Also important, the UK road engineering of the motorway system is really excellent, in terms of logic and consistency...way better than the Autobahns.

Red 4 said:
Do you think the motorway speed limit should be raised ? If so, what to ?
I'd start with 85th percentile speeds, I'm guessing about 80mph, on free flowing motorways, with enforcement similar to today. Probably shift the speed limit slowly up to 90th percentile (maybe 90mph), then make a judgement on moving to 100mph or just removing the limit completely. Do this over 10 years, so everyone has time to adjust. Introduce a law that says if you are driving over 80mph then a portion of the blame in accidents is assumed.

Red 4 said:
What about single carriageway national speed limits ?
Also start with 85th percentile speed, but I would be more conservative with speed limit increases than motorways, as the risks are clearly much higher on single carriageway roads.

anonymous-user

53 months

Friday 27th March 2015
quotequote all
Kawasicki said:
Red 4 said:
I doubt you'd make the comments you have on this thread if you had more experience of the driving standards in this country than me.
My opinion/comments are backed up not only by experience, but by basic statistics, i.e. UK roads are relatively safe.

Your experience and the statistics seem to clash.
Relatively basic data analysis also concludes there'll be more risk and death. So there needs to be the subsequent benefit to justify the increased risk and death.

Where is the increased benefit beyond people who enjoy driving faster?

Kawasicki

13,041 posts

234 months

Friday 27th March 2015
quotequote all
La Liga said:
Kawasicki said:
Red 4 said:
I doubt you'd make the comments you have on this thread if you had more experience of the driving standards in this country than me.
My opinion/comments are backed up not only by experience, but by basic statistics, i.e. UK roads are relatively safe.

Your experience and the statistics seem to clash.
Relatively basic data analysis also concludes there'll be more risk and death. So there needs to be the subsequent benefit to justify the increased risk and death.

Where is the increased benefit beyond people who enjoy driving faster?
Less time used traveling.

Why is the current motorway/dual carriageways limit 10mph above the single carriageways limit?

anonymous-user

53 months

Friday 27th March 2015
quotequote all
The benefit of the travelling time doesn't justify the increased risk.

There'd have to be clear benefits to the fundamental purpose of the road network. The 10s of millions of economic damage through the extra fatal / serious RTCs wouldn't be offset.