Working abroad as a recent graduate?

[Twin2]

Hello,

I'm due to graduate in June 2016 with an MEng in Mechanical Engineering. Obviously there are lots of jobs here for someone like me, but I want to be elsewhere and am looking for you guys' insight.

I'm spending June - December this year in Germany to do my masters project which will be cool, and leave me with a good grasp of the language. I'd like to go there or ideally to Switzerland (been a few times, absolutely love it).

Fields I'm interested in are Automotive, Medical and Structural although most mechanical work is similar so I'm pretty open. Also keen to work in R&D on new tech which can be interesting.

What experiences do you all have?

Does anyone have any advice on companies I could look at, where I could find graduate jobs etc?

[Bodo]

Most larger companies in Europe will have non-German speakers employed, especially for departments dealing with customers abroad. Office language is then English and local, so not too hard to adapt when picking up a new language.

When you're in Germany, you may already start looking for interesting roles/employers. Getting an invitation for an interview is harder when you're hundred of miles away, as the employers will pay for your travel. Visit job fairs for engineering graduates; plenty around in university towns.

Tell us something about your masters project - you will have more chances to find work related to your thesis.

[Twin2]

Bodo said:

Most larger companies in Europe will have non-German speakers employed, especially for departments dealing with customers abroad. Office language is then English and local, so not too hard to adapt when picking up a new language.

When you're in Germany, you may already start looking for interesting roles/employers. Getting an invitation for an interview is harder when you're hundred of miles away, as the employers will pay for your travel. Visit job fairs for engineering graduates; plenty around in university towns.

Tell us something about your masters project - you will have more chances to find work related to your thesis.

I actually don't know what the masters project is going to be yet.

I have a few offers from universities at the moment, one in automotive, modelling systems for replacing HVAC and heating/cooling people differently.

Also working on a project looking at water injection to CHP units to reduce NOX emissions.

I am awaiting 3 companies getting back to me in Germany which are all in the machining industry.

Experience is all automotive so far with Formula Student and a placement at a big luxury car maker in the midlands.

[Bodo]

You're well in time for master's in June 2016. Have you checked German universities to enrol in for the degree? Please check - the fees have to be ridiculously low, and living as a student probably is too. Check for Master courses in English, which most of the universities offer. Aachen, Darmstadt, Karlsruhe and Munich (and others) are recognized for their excellence.

If you're looking for a company to do your thesis with, I recommend southern Germany - Hessen, Bayern and Baden-Württemberg. Most of Germany's mech-involved companies were founded and headquartered there. The bigger ones offer compensation for thesis work, and it's tax-free. Usually between €800 and €1400 pm. Start a few months earlier for a placement in the company, and prepare for your thesis. This is common practice, so you will get used to the environment, and make first contacts for your topics.

For preparation, find out what your uni requires in complexity for the thesis. You will likely propose a topic (one that you found with a company?), and your Prof will tell you where or how deep to study.

[Twin2]

Bodo said:

You're well in time for master's in June 2016. Have you checked German universities to enrol in for the degree? Please check - the fees have to be ridiculously low, and living as a student probably is too. Check for Master courses in English, which most of the universities offer. Aachen, Darmstadt, Karlsruhe and Munich (and others) are recognized for their excellence.

If you're looking for a company to do your thesis with, I recommend southern Germany - Hessen, Bayern and Baden-Württemberg. Most of Germany's mech-involved companies were founded and headquartered there. The bigger ones offer compensation for thesis work, and it's tax-free. Usually between €800 and €1400 pm. Start a few months earlier for a placement in the company, and prepare for your thesis. This is common practice, so you will get used to the environment, and make first contacts for your topics.

For preparation, find out what your uni requires in complexity for the thesis. You will likely propose a topic (one that you found with a company?), and your Prof will tell you where or how deep to study.

Yes well, I've applied to a fee universities, Esslingen, Karlsruhe and Braunschweig. The companies I have been in contact with are all in the south, around the Furtwangen type area.

I should be going in June and plan to be back here for Christmas, 7 months should be plenty of time.

Do you have any idea of typical graduate engineer salaries in Germany?

[silver_lining]

Afraid I don't know any details, and they're probably on your radar already, but I've heard good things about BMW in Munich. I don't believe being non-German speaking is a great barrier either. The temptation to pop in to a beer garden on the way home every evening may be difficult however!

[Bodo]

Twin2 said:

Do you have any idea of typical graduate engineer salaries in Germany?

Typical entry is between €41k and €45k; depending on size of company, region, industry. Most larger companies still offer 35h weeks. Tax and social insurance will leave you with a net of ~62% in that region.

[Twin2]

Bodo said:

ypical entry is between €41k and €45k; depending on size of company, region, industry. Most larger companies still offer 35h weeks. Tax and social insurance will leave you with a net of ~62% in that region.

And what is it like applying there as someone who doesn't speak great German.
I studied it in school and after next semester it should be reasonable.

What kind of basic requirements do they have?

[Bodo]

German students are usually 19 when they leave school, and 25...29 when they leave uni. Courses are set to 10 semesters, but dissertation, foreign semesters, placements and generally drinking beer in between takes its time. At 25, I see no reason not to start with average salary, even when you don't speak German (yet). Everything below 30, you will pick up new languages quickly; but this is only really required for private social life.

Engineering colleagues are helpful and cooperative, but they will rather meet their friends in the pub than their colleagues. You will have no trouble to find friends thanks to Vereine and social life.

A few hints for application:

• look for vacancies published in English. This is a means to show the job won't work without - and there are plenty. Still, don't be put off by German text vacancies. They are not unlikely to accept English-only as well. Usually, it's mentioned when German is a requirement.

• visit http://jobstairs.de - a job portal founded and operated by the larger German companies, and see what is there. Currently 611 entry-level R&D jobs.

• do more than 50 applications in one go - it feels better when you're in a position where you can choose your job.

• no German company will let you off during probation, unless you commit a crime.

• thus, German companies are hesitant to recruit and employ people they don't know

• thus, also consider engineering service companies like Bertrand, Brunel, Ferchau and smaller ones - as a project-temp, you get paid the same industry basic salary, and likely get an offer to swap after some time. The largest companies also work with small, local temp engineering services.

• being proficient in something, even if you don't need it for work; eg. CAE, CAD, scientific experience - you show you are able to pick up and learn

• being self-managed - an expectation to everyone who has a degree, no matter what direction. Once you are familiar with your topics, you are expected to make decisions on your own; while you are free to extend your scope on your own with growing experience and confidence.

• able to communicate openly and work with interfaces (industrialisation is division of labour, and grads are in the centre of it). Germany has a cooperative approach in work.

• being performance oriented, work done per time unit: people come to the office at 0700 and leave at 1500 - and completed more than a day's work. No facebook, no excessive tea kitchen chatting. You may do this during lunch break.

• this is a bullet list, so you get the picture how it works.

[Antmore]

Bodo said:

• thus, also consider engineering service companies like Bertrand, Brunel, Ferchau and smaller ones - as a project-temp, you get paid the same industry basic salary, and likely get an offer to swap after some time. The largest companies also work with small, local temp engineering services.

This is a good list by Bodo, but the point above is not necessarily true. Working for an engineering services provider (Dienstleister) is a great way for a new graduate to get experience at large German engineering companies, but you will generally not be paid as much as a direct employee and the chances vary whether you will get an offer to be directly employed, depending where you are.

Germany is a great place to be an engineer, lots of opportunities and very good working conditions.

[Twin2]

Bodo said:

German students are usually 19 when they leave school, and 25...29 when they leave uni. Courses are set to 10 semesters, but dissertation, foreign semesters, placements and generally drinking beer in between takes its time. At 25, I see no reason not to start with average salary, even when you don't speak German (yet). Everything below 30, you will pick up new languages quickly; but this is only really required for private social life.

Engineering colleagues are helpful and cooperative, but they will rather meet their friends in the pub than their colleagues. You will have no trouble to find friends thanks to Vereine and social life.

A few hints for application:

• look for vacancies published in English. This is a means to show the job won't work without - and there are plenty. Still, don't be put off by German text vacancies. They are not unlikely to accept English-only as well. Usually, it's mentioned when German is a requirement.

• visit http://jobstairs.de - a job portal founded and operated by the larger German companies, and see what is there. Currently 611 entry-level R&D jobs.

• do more than 50 applications in one go - it feels better when you're in a position where you can choose your job.

• no German company will let you off during probation, unless you commit a crime.

• thus, German companies are hesitant to recruit and employ people they don't know

• thus, also consider engineering service companies like Bertrand, Brunel, Ferchau and smaller ones - as a project-temp, you get paid the same industry basic salary, and likely get an offer to swap after some time. The largest companies also work with small, local temp engineering services.

• being proficient in something, even if you don't need it for work; eg. CAE, CAD, scientific experience - you show you are able to pick up and learn

• being self-managed - an expectation to everyone who has a degree, no matter what direction. Once you are familiar with your topics, you are expected to make decisions on your own; while you are free to extend your scope on your own with growing experience and confidence.

• able to communicate openly and work with interfaces (industrialisation is division of labour, and grads are in the centre of it). Germany has a cooperative approach in work.

• being performance oriented, work done per time unit: people come to the office at 0700 and leave at 1500 - and completed more than a day's work. No facebook, no excessive tea kitchen chatting. You may do this during lunch break.

• this is a bullet list, so you get the picture how it works.

Thanks for your advice guys, it's very very useful.

The main thing I'm worried about is that a German colleague of mine said Germans were very proud of "German Engineering" so were hesitant to hire other people. I know that seems silly and you'd be shot for having that kind of attitude here.

Soooo, Switzerland anyone?

[DJRC]

Germans will hire anyone don't worry.

The Swiss are a very different story!

[simoid]

Antmore said:

This is a good list by Bodo, but the point above is not necessarily true. Working for an engineering services provider (Dienstleister) is a great way for a new graduate to get experience at large German engineering companies, but you will generally not be paid as much as a direct employee and the chances vary whether you will get an offer to be directly employed, depending where you are.

Germany is a great place to be an engineer, lots of opportunities and very good working conditions.

Lurktastic!

[Twin2]

DJRC said:

Germans will hire anyone don't worry.

The Swiss are a very different story!

If I include on my CV that I'm keen the pay many elaborate taxes will it see me in good stead?

Seriously though, what is it like? How do you stand out from the crowd to them?

[DJRC]

Well to be honest I don't know about Germany, but Bavaria is a great place! Sorry, German joke

I really enjoy living in Germanic Europe. It's polite, friendly, vibrant, upbeat and positive. Good weather, good beer, great mix of company.

As to how you offer yourself/standout - as a graduate I've no idea. Frankly you are of fk all use to anybody apart from making tea for 6 months. And I'm not really joking much. You know fk all and a lot of what you do think you know will have to be retrained out of you in the first 6 months of a grad scheme. After that you will stop largely thinking it's about you being a brilliant code monkey, designer, whatever and actually about you progressing your RIDs, closing out your actions, not making a tt of yourself in front of customers and learning to make a decent cuppa. After about 5 yrs in a decent British engineering firm you will be in good stead to sell yourself to the rest of the world at decent money.

[Twin2]

DJRC said:

Well to be honest I don't know about Germany, but Bavaria is a great place! Sorry, German joke

I really enjoy living in Germanic Europe. It's polite, friendly, vibrant, upbeat and positive. Good weather, good beer, great mix of company.

As to how you offer yourself/standout - as a graduate I've no idea. Frankly you are of fk all use to anybody apart from making tea for 6 months. And I'm not really joking much. You know fk all and a lot of what you do think you know will have to be retrained out of you in the first 6 months of a grad scheme. After that you will stop largely thinking it's about you being a brilliant code monkey, designer, whatever and actually about you progressing your RIDs, closing out your actions, not making a tt of yourself in front of customers and learning to make a decent cuppa. After about 5 yrs in a decent British engineering firm you will be in good stead to sell yourself to the rest of the world at decent money.

Yeah, I know how useless a graduate can be, my time at a large "British" manufacturer taught me that. I, of course, have an offer from them for a grad job and it's a good prospect, I just don't want to move to the midlands again haha.

But for example, here the graduate employers would like a CV with:

Part time work experience
Formula Student
International experience
Summer placements etc...

Is there anything in particular that they like in Europe that I don't already have?

P.S. I would be taking the Aeropress to work, makes a cracking cup of coffee...

[DJRC]

The single biggest most important thing you can have is 5yrs grad scheme engineering at a British company, or basics trained properly combined with inate British engineering talent, esp design talent developed at a British uni. We are the best in the world at that and our engineering courses the best for it. Foreign, esp German, engineering companies love to see that. Exporting our engineering talent around the world is a GB success story but nobody ever tells it. Do your five yrs - then go hit the world for real money.