The Official 2015 Malaysian Grand Prix Thread ***Spoilers**
Discussion
Scuffers said:
you could put max Chilton in a merc and he would still be nowhere.
I think he'd do ok, maybe not 1-2 seconds a lap clear of the field but still. I thought they (people who in theory know about this stuff but my recollection may be wrong) suggest that a great driver is worth a good 0.25-0.5s a lap. Which is why in evenly matched teams the guys normally qualify very close together..ash73 said:
Every other sport (with the exception of equestrian?) has implemented a separate category for women's competition.
And in that fact I think you have scuppered your motor sport argument.The Horse plays a role in equestrian as much as the car in Motor sports, I see no reason why women cannot and should not compete in all levels of motor sport except that statistically they are less likely too.
(Some would argue women have an advantage, lower CoG, generally better ability to withstand G-Force, often smaller, shorter and lighter and the first successful Female F1 driver will have every sponsor wetting themselves to use her for promotional work... you think LH hasn't had a degree of appeal due to not being another White F1 driver?)
How many good female karters are there compared to male, 1:100 or worse? Then a percentage will drop out as they age through either ability, expense or other interests (like males) or Child bearing/care (an understandable distraction) so currently you have a tiny pool of female skill reaching a high level.
If you make karting and other entry level motor sport significantly interesting or appealing to females you will eventually get female F1 drivers of good ability- its a purely mathematical exercise, nothing more.
ash73 said:
scubadude said:
And in that fact I think you have scuppered your motor sport argument.
The Horse plays a role in equestrian as much as the car in Motor sports
...and how many women jockeys have won the Grand National? They don't have a jockey world championship, it's all on the nose, so they can't have a separate division for women. Whereas F1 is about points.The Horse plays a role in equestrian as much as the car in Motor sports
The event has run since 1839 (167 times), with lets say an average of 20 male riders per event? So that's 3340 male rides versus 22 female rides. The recent 3rd place result would suggest that it's only a matter of time and numbers...
Jasandjules said:
I think he'd do ok, maybe not 1-2 seconds a lap clear of the field but still. I thought they (people who in theory know about this stuff but my recollection may be wrong) suggest that a great driver is worth a good 0.25-0.5s a lap. Which is why in evenly matched teams the guys normally qualify very close together..
No chance, if you put him and Hamilton in the same car I bet he could not get within a second of Lewis.garyhun said:
You sure about that?
Yes.dr_gn said:
I think it is: There are plenty of second rate drivers who have won GP's and even world championships.
Given enough of a car advantage, anyone could win in F1.
needs to be a hell of a car advantage though, last time I can remember would be years ago when tech regs were less restrictive and Chapman or the like came up with something revolutionary.Given enough of a car advantage, anyone could win in F1.
entropy said:
dr_gn said:
I think it is: There are plenty of second rate drivers who have won GP's and even world championships.
Given enough of a car advantage, anyone could win in F1.
Depends on the circumstances.Given enough of a car advantage, anyone could win in F1.
Heikki Kovaleinen - he was in a WDC winning car and never won a race on merit.
How about D. Hill, J.Villeneuve and Button? I doubt anyone would sensibly argue that they were consistently the quickest or best drivers out there at the time, but all won a championship with the help of a significant car advantage.
ash73 said:
Every other sport (with the exception of equestrian?) has implemented a separate category for women's competition. F1 drivers are elite athletes, why should it be any different? And it's not just about physical endurance, there are likely other factors. Men and women don't even compete together in darts and snooker.
This is about how it gets started, not what may be the long term goal. Once we have a grid that includes top class women drivers, and they start winning races, the WDC and WWDC could be merged.
I think a lot of fans want to see female competitors, the commercial opportunity is huge, and F1 needs a larger grid; win-win as far as I can see.
WRONG ...Suggest you google Shirley Muldowney or Erica Enders....both ladies, both Champions in Motorsport where they beat the s**t out of guys with their driving. This is about how it gets started, not what may be the long term goal. Once we have a grid that includes top class women drivers, and they start winning races, the WDC and WWDC could be merged.
I think a lot of fans want to see female competitors, the commercial opportunity is huge, and F1 needs a larger grid; win-win as far as I can see.
Geoff Stilwell said:
ash73 said:
Every other sport (with the exception of equestrian?) has implemented a separate category for women's competition. F1 drivers are elite athletes, why should it be any different? And it's not just about physical endurance, there are likely other factors. Men and women don't even compete together in darts and snooker.
This is about how it gets started, not what may be the long term goal. Once we have a grid that includes top class women drivers, and they start winning races, the WDC and WWDC could be merged.
I think a lot of fans want to see female competitors, the commercial opportunity is huge, and F1 needs a larger grid; win-win as far as I can see.
WRONG ...Suggest you google Shirley Muldowney or Erica Enders....both ladies, both Champions in Motorsport where they beat the s**t out of guys with their driving. This is about how it gets started, not what may be the long term goal. Once we have a grid that includes top class women drivers, and they start winning races, the WDC and WWDC could be merged.
I think a lot of fans want to see female competitors, the commercial opportunity is huge, and F1 needs a larger grid; win-win as far as I can see.
I’m not a sports scientist, but I had a look at a few scientific papers associated with gender differences in endurance and strength as that seems to be the main point raised by the advocates for regulation changes in F1 to 'accomodate' female participation. It’s going to be a bit sciencey, so bear with me.
(Also sorry for the O/T, mods feel free to transfer to another appropriate thread)
A study looked at male vs female performance in ultramarathon races, and found that men apparently perform better up to a marathon distance but not after that in athletes matched for training, age and race time. They conclude that their data supports the hypothesis that women have better fatigue resistance than men. ( link)
Another study with matched male and female pairs based on demographics and other relevant parameters at ultramarathon trail running (historical data from 1990-2007) found there to be no significant differences in running times. Some very interesting findings in this one, for example, they found that the number of previous finishes played a larger role in determining whether the male or the female in the pair, ran faster. ( link)
Generally for pure athletic ability, differences in male and female physiology doesn't seem to have a major impact, but in some contexts considered advantageous (esp. swimming in favour of female physiology). However, when you look at historical data from the different athletic disciplines, there is a body of literature documenting ~10% gap in performance in favour of males; although as far as I can ascertain, none of these studies account for demographic and body characteristics of the athletes as the above studies, so this 10% difference would also include inherent physical differences in the top athletes:
There are two main aspects of driving an F1 (or a single seater) car that gender differences could have a role to play:
1) Physical endurance (g-forces in corners, acceleration and braking, braking force generated by foot, assisted/non-assisted steering, heat etc)
2) Cognitive performance in the presence of physical stressors
If one can demonstrate no significant differences in ability between males and females in the above, we can safely conclude that women are as well endowed as men, to compete 'equally' in motorsports, sociological factors and prejudices notwithstanding. We will be forced to conclude that lack of oppurtunity rather than lack of ability that leads to the perception of females as being ‘inferior’ (pardon the unPC term) to males in motorsport.
On physical endurance when subject to high g-forces, the only data available publicly is that of the fighter pilots and there appears to be data favouring men. Women are known to have higher orthostatic intolerance (disruption of cardiovascular function when subject to gravity/g-forces) and I came across an USAF study that reports women do not improve with training whilst men do. ( link
Yet, you do have female fighter pilots, and surely not for PR purposes, so I assume their cardio function/orthostatic tolerance is better than average. This also links to the second point of cognitive performance. We can apply this data to F1 cars only if the g-forces experienced by fighter pilots are representative of those experienced by F1 drivers, which is not true. However, in that linked study, their training methods involved max load of 5G, so this evidence could apply to F1. Also, I think the driving position in an F1 car is more favourable to reduce orthostatic effects as the g-loadings experienced are biased towards lateral, not longitudinal.
Braking force will be directly linked to muscle mass which favours males, but here peak force is not as helpful as being able to generate close to peak force for a sustained period. I can’t find the link but I remember reading that women are able to sustain closer to their peak force for longer (better endurance), whilst men can exert greater force. Steering effort also comes from overall upper body strength, and here women are at about 50% of the men (lower body strength is about 70% of men).
All of this, I guess conspires to make the female work at a higher percentage of their exercise capacity compared to male and this surely affects their cognitive performance? Unlikely, as another study found that exposure to high-g environment actually results in better retention of oxygen in the cerebral cortex in females-important for cognitive function ( link). And, the USAF study reported that women did worse in the combat simulations.
Reviewing all of this, I would conclude that there isn’t enough evidence to suggest women couldn’t compete equally as it relates to motorsport. If given equal oppurtunity to train and take part in motorsport from the grassroots, who knows, we might have more females competing in F1 too.
(Also sorry for the O/T, mods feel free to transfer to another appropriate thread)
A study looked at male vs female performance in ultramarathon races, and found that men apparently perform better up to a marathon distance but not after that in athletes matched for training, age and race time. They conclude that their data supports the hypothesis that women have better fatigue resistance than men. ( link)
Another study with matched male and female pairs based on demographics and other relevant parameters at ultramarathon trail running (historical data from 1990-2007) found there to be no significant differences in running times. Some very interesting findings in this one, for example, they found that the number of previous finishes played a larger role in determining whether the male or the female in the pair, ran faster. ( link)
Generally for pure athletic ability, differences in male and female physiology doesn't seem to have a major impact, but in some contexts considered advantageous (esp. swimming in favour of female physiology). However, when you look at historical data from the different athletic disciplines, there is a body of literature documenting ~10% gap in performance in favour of males; although as far as I can ascertain, none of these studies account for demographic and body characteristics of the athletes as the above studies, so this 10% difference would also include inherent physical differences in the top athletes:
Study said:
Regarding existing findings with a decrease in gender difference with increasing swim distance from 50-m freestyle to 1500 m (Tanaka & Seals, 1997) and an equal swim performance in a 12-h ultra-swim (Eichenberger et al., 2012a), one might assume that female ultra-swimmers would equalize or surpass males in the cold water in the English Channel because of their higher body fat (Knechtle et al.,2010a). However, the gender difference in the annual top three swimmers remained unchanged at ∼12% in the last 36 years. A gender difference of ∼10–12% has also been reported for other endurance disciplines (Sparling et al., 1998; Coast et al., 2004; Lepers & Maffiuletti, 2011; Rüst et al., 2012). In 1500-m running, the gender difference in the world's best times between 1980 and 1996 was consistent at 11.1 ± 1.1%. Also in marathon running within the same time frame, the gender difference was unchanged at 11.2 ± 0.9% (Sparling et al., 1998). Coast et al. (2004) compared the world's best running performances at distances from 100 m to 200 km. The average difference was 12.4% where males were faster than females.
In Ironman triathletes covering 3.8-km swimming, 180-km cycling, and 42.195-km running in the “Ironman Hawaii,” the mean gender difference in performance time was significantly smaller for swimming (12.1 ± 1.9%) compared to cycling (15.4 ± 0.7%) and running (18.2 ± 1.3%) for the top 10 male and female amateur triathletes between the ages of 18 and 64 years for 3 consecutive years between 2006 and 2008 (Lepers & Maffiuletti, 2011). For elite male and female triathletes between 1981 and 2007 in the “Ironman Hawaii,” the mean gender differences in time for swimming, cycling, running, and overall race time were 9.8 ± 2.9%, 12.7 ± 2.0%, 13.3 ± 3.1%, and 12.6 ± 1.3%, respectively (Lepers, 2008). In the “Powerman Zofingen” long-distance duathlon from 2002 to 2011 covering 10-km running, 150-km cycling, and 30-km running, the top 10 overall gender differences in times were 16 ± 2%, 17 ± 3%, 15 ± 3%, and 16 ± 5% for the 10-km run, 150-km cycle, 30-km run, and the overall race time, respectively (Rüst et al., 2012).
^From this studyIn Ironman triathletes covering 3.8-km swimming, 180-km cycling, and 42.195-km running in the “Ironman Hawaii,” the mean gender difference in performance time was significantly smaller for swimming (12.1 ± 1.9%) compared to cycling (15.4 ± 0.7%) and running (18.2 ± 1.3%) for the top 10 male and female amateur triathletes between the ages of 18 and 64 years for 3 consecutive years between 2006 and 2008 (Lepers & Maffiuletti, 2011). For elite male and female triathletes between 1981 and 2007 in the “Ironman Hawaii,” the mean gender differences in time for swimming, cycling, running, and overall race time were 9.8 ± 2.9%, 12.7 ± 2.0%, 13.3 ± 3.1%, and 12.6 ± 1.3%, respectively (Lepers, 2008). In the “Powerman Zofingen” long-distance duathlon from 2002 to 2011 covering 10-km running, 150-km cycling, and 30-km running, the top 10 overall gender differences in times were 16 ± 2%, 17 ± 3%, 15 ± 3%, and 16 ± 5% for the 10-km run, 150-km cycle, 30-km run, and the overall race time, respectively (Rüst et al., 2012).
There are two main aspects of driving an F1 (or a single seater) car that gender differences could have a role to play:
1) Physical endurance (g-forces in corners, acceleration and braking, braking force generated by foot, assisted/non-assisted steering, heat etc)
2) Cognitive performance in the presence of physical stressors
If one can demonstrate no significant differences in ability between males and females in the above, we can safely conclude that women are as well endowed as men, to compete 'equally' in motorsports, sociological factors and prejudices notwithstanding. We will be forced to conclude that lack of oppurtunity rather than lack of ability that leads to the perception of females as being ‘inferior’ (pardon the unPC term) to males in motorsport.
On physical endurance when subject to high g-forces, the only data available publicly is that of the fighter pilots and there appears to be data favouring men. Women are known to have higher orthostatic intolerance (disruption of cardiovascular function when subject to gravity/g-forces) and I came across an USAF study that reports women do not improve with training whilst men do. ( link
Yet, you do have female fighter pilots, and surely not for PR purposes, so I assume their cardio function/orthostatic tolerance is better than average. This also links to the second point of cognitive performance. We can apply this data to F1 cars only if the g-forces experienced by fighter pilots are representative of those experienced by F1 drivers, which is not true. However, in that linked study, their training methods involved max load of 5G, so this evidence could apply to F1. Also, I think the driving position in an F1 car is more favourable to reduce orthostatic effects as the g-loadings experienced are biased towards lateral, not longitudinal.
Braking force will be directly linked to muscle mass which favours males, but here peak force is not as helpful as being able to generate close to peak force for a sustained period. I can’t find the link but I remember reading that women are able to sustain closer to their peak force for longer (better endurance), whilst men can exert greater force. Steering effort also comes from overall upper body strength, and here women are at about 50% of the men (lower body strength is about 70% of men).
All of this, I guess conspires to make the female work at a higher percentage of their exercise capacity compared to male and this surely affects their cognitive performance? Unlikely, as another study found that exposure to high-g environment actually results in better retention of oxygen in the cerebral cortex in females-important for cognitive function ( link). And, the USAF study reported that women did worse in the combat simulations.
Reviewing all of this, I would conclude that there isn’t enough evidence to suggest women couldn’t compete equally as it relates to motorsport. If given equal oppurtunity to train and take part in motorsport from the grassroots, who knows, we might have more females competing in F1 too.
What about trannies? Best of both worlds surely. When one of them comes up through karting they should be able to press the brake pedal bloody well...
Seriously though, isnt the lack of women more to do with fact that the pushy dad just won't pressure a daughter to go karting in the same way as with a son. Afterall, it's mostly an ego trip for the well funded dad.
Seriously though, isnt the lack of women more to do with fact that the pushy dad just won't pressure a daughter to go karting in the same way as with a son. Afterall, it's mostly an ego trip for the well funded dad.
Catatafish said:
What about trannies? Best of both worlds surely. When one of them comes up through karting they should be able to press the brake pedal bloody well...
Seriously though, isnt the lack of women more to do with fact that the pushy dad just won't pressure a daughter to go karting in the same way as with a son. Afterall, it's mostly an ego trip for the well funded dad.
jonny milner (ex uk rally champion etc)'s daughter seems to be doing quite well in grass trackingSeriously though, isnt the lack of women more to do with fact that the pushy dad just won't pressure a daughter to go karting in the same way as with a son. Afterall, it's mostly an ego trip for the well funded dad.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ccxG4moUtyc
only really aware of this because i used to take part in the same sprint series as jonny a year or two ago
Scuffers said:
Drag racing is nothing like the same.
Only upside is they are likely to be lighter.
WRONG!!!Only upside is they are likely to be lighter.
weight isn't an advantage....cars have to be a minimum weight. they compete on a level playing field as the guys and have been champions on merit...amd drag racing isn't easy!...takes balls of steel, huge amounts of concentration and massively quick reaction times to do well
REALIST123 said:
Hardly F1 though is it? You'll be telling us the car makes no difference in drag racing next.
NO its not F1....its about 7000hp more per car and 150mph quicker!....the car makes a difference but in NHRA competition its so close it usually comes down to the tuner, reaction times of the driver and driver ability....women compete on a level playing field with men and are bloody good at it37chevy said:
WRONG!!!
weight isn't an advantage....cars have to be a minimum weight. they compete on a level playing field as the guys and have been champions on merit...amd drag racing isn't easy!...takes balls of steel, huge amounts of concentration and massively quick reaction times to do well
May be not... weight isn't an advantage....cars have to be a minimum weight. they compete on a level playing field as the guys and have been champions on merit...amd drag racing isn't easy!...takes balls of steel, huge amounts of concentration and massively quick reaction times to do well
/facetiousDr Z said:
May be not... /facetious
well...maybe there transvestites as brought up above :-p /facetioussome people just like to think women cant compete, I don't subscribe to the whole womens championship b
ks....if theyre good enough to race against the men then they will do, and have done in the pastIn Drag Racing the rules are the same for men and women. Both names I mentioned compete or competed at the top level. They are athletes the same as F1. The car or Bikes conform to extremely tight rules the same as F1, but it is the skill of the driver and tuner that counts. Drag Racing has proved time and time again that women can compete with the same equipement at the same level and win Major Championships and have set many milestones in Motorsport. If you don't belive us then I suggest you attend a Drag Race here in the US. At least it isn't a bore parade and a V8 sounds like an engine and not a food mixer!
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