997.1 buying advice - Bore Scoring?

[billywhizzzzzz]

Ok, so I've finally convinced myself that I need a 991 in my life after a Z4M (although that may stay as I'm attached to it) , and am now looking seriously. However, after years of relatively robust BMWs, I'm a little nervous about the internet scaremongering around 997.1 engines - notably bore scoring and potential expensive rebuilds.

I'm looking at sub 60,000 miles (closer to 50,000 miles, hopefully less) cars - both 3.6 and 3.8 from a variety of sources.

Main questions - how worried about bore scoring should I be? And, will an independent inspection pick it up? Is there genuinely less of an issue with the 3.6?

Many thanks

[richardrsc]

billywhizzzzzz said:

Ok, so I've finally convinced myself that I need a 991 in my life after a Z4M (although that may stay as I'm attached to it) , and am now looking seriously. However, after years of relatively robust BMWs, I'm a little nervous about the internet scaremongering around 997.1 engines - notably bore scoring and potential expensive rebuilds.

I'm looking at sub 60,000 miles (closer to 50,000 miles, hopefully less) cars - both 3.6 and 3.8 from a variety of sources.

Main questions - how worried about bore scoring should I be? And, will an independent inspection pick it up? Is there genuinely less of an issue with the 3.6?

Many thanks

I'd go for an OPC one, at least then if it happens you're covered. It happened to me (or rather had already happened!) and I was very glad of the warrantee. I asked a well regarded independent inspection chap if they checked for scored bores and they said no.

[spyderman8]

I was present at an RPM Technik open day where a guy had his Cayman S borescoped and was told for the first time his engine was showing signs of scoring. I certainly wouldn't buy a 997.1 without such an inspection or without a warranty.

Chris.

[Trev450]

richardrsc said:

I'd go for an OPC one, at least then if it happens you're covered.

This is fine so long as you accept that any engine rebuilding undertaken by an OPC is done so using the same 'flawed' components. If I was of a mind to get a warranty I would be looking at a maintenance plan such as the one offered by Hartech. At least then should the worst happen, you know you are going to be getting a significantly more robust engine.

[thegoose]

Trev450 said:

This is fine so long as you accept that any engine rebuilding undertaken by an OPC is done so using the same 'flawed' components. If I was of a mind to get a warranty I would be looking at a maintenance plan such as the one offered by Hartech. At least then should the worst happen, you know you are going to be getting a significantly more robust engine.

This makes a lot of sense. Also to be accepted on to their Plan they do a far more thorough inspection and service than an OPC would do, but without the stringent originality conditions (e.g. regarding genuine Porsche batteries and N rated tyres, fitment of non-standard audio/Bluetooth etc).

[m17kyu]

My 997 C2S had it with 42k on clocks. Lucky for me the dealers covered the cost to fix it

[billywhizzzzzz]

Thanks for all replies - sadly I'm near Bristol so Hartech not an easy option. As I'm looking for a keeper and ultimately want a good car, I guess an alternative to an OPC is to get a car with an bore inspection that confirms no scoring but assume over the next 5 years it will need a rebuild, and when it does, get it rebuilt with upgraded components. Either that or wait a year or to and get a post 2009 997 (gen 2) once prices dip below 30k. Or buy one that has had a rebuild to Gen 2 Spec - there's one or two for sale now and these seem to command a reasonable premium understandably.

Be interesting to hear if there are any higher mileage (60k+) 997.1 cars that have no evidence of bore scoring...

[thegoose]

The options you're considering make sense but there's no such thing as an engine "rebuilt to Gen 2 spec" - the two engines are of a completely different design and nothing is interchangeable.

Being as nearly all gen 1 cars are 7 years old or more I'd agree that from a long term perspective the Porsche warranty isn't the best route.

Also, the post above about replacement parts being covered is only true up to a point - any part fitted under the warranty is only covered for the remainder of the warranty period. So if your engine gives up with 3 months warranty to go, yes, you'll get a new engine or a rebuild, but it'll only be covered for 3 months.

[Steve Baker]

I have been the proud owner of a 2007 C2 for 40 months with no engine issues apart from tandem pump and chain tensioner leaking. Although it is easy to say just drive it and enjoy, unless you have a contingency fund for engine repairs I found it was always in the back of my mind, not if but when ? Subsequently my wife and I decided to put the £5-8k likely for engine repair into another car before it happened. 2007 turbo with 2 year OPC warranty will at least give me 2 years piece of mind. Yes it cost an additional £14k but it was worth the extra !! Personally knowing what I know now, I would buy 997.2 or Turbo.

[billywhizzzzzz]

thegoose said:

The options you're considering make sense but there's no such thing as an engine "rebuilt to Gen 2 spec" - the two engines are of a completely different design and nothing is interchangeable.

That's curious as this one claims to have just that - http://www.pistonheads.com/classifieds/used-cars/p...
But certainly the Hartech rebuilds of 997.1 engines use upgraded internals - if not to .2 spec, no?

[AyBee]

Forgive my ignorance: are all 997.1 engines prone to bore scoring and all 997.2 cars are fine?

[Trev450]

AyBee said:

Forgive my ignorance: are all 997.1 engines prone to bore scoring and all 997.2 cars are fine?

With the exception of GT models which don't suffer from the problem at all, yes.

[thegoose]

billywhizzzzzz said:

thegoose said:

The options you're considering make sense but there's no such thing as an engine "rebuilt to Gen 2 spec" - the two engines are of a completely different design and nothing is interchangeable.

That's curious as this one claims to have just that - http://www.pistonheads.com/classifieds/used-cars/p...
But certainly the Hartech rebuilds of 997.1 engines use upgraded internals - if not to .2 spec, no?

Hartech remanufacture the gen 1 engines with various modifications to eliminate the various problems inherent in the original design.

A gen 2 engine is a completely different engine.

btw I haven't clicked your link (out walking the dog just now) so can't comment on it specifically.

[monstro]

billywhizzzzzz said:

That's curious as this one claims to have just that - http://www.pistonheads.com/classifieds/used-cars/p...
But certainly the Hartech rebuilds of 997.1 engines use upgraded internals - if not to .2 spec, no?

As previous commenters have pointed out, the two engines are completely different, this will still have a Gen1 engine. What the advertiser may be alluding to is the fact that the engine may have been rebuilt to the latest Gen1 spec incorporating the IMS revisions etc.

[PR36]

zulash said:

i'm just in the process of buying a 997.1 and from what i can gather from people who have worthwhile knowledge of these cars and the issues/problems that MAY come with them, is that if the car has been looked after and regularly serviced by a reputable (not necessarily OPC) and not driven by a total KNOB half it's life, you'll be fine. Even then, apparently only approx. 5% of the 997.1's have problems with IMS/BORE SCORING issues. I would also hazard a guess that the 5% of affected cars HAVE been driven by KNOBS!

If you are suggesting there is a direct correlation between knob head owners and bore scoring, well if the ph forum is anything to go by all i can think is they are probably all f***ed. I would phone the chap with the 997.1 and say your house is being repossessed and you'll have to pass.

[Wozy68]

zulash said:

i'm just in the process of buying a 997.1 and from what i can gather from people who have worthwhile knowledge of these cars and the issues/problems that MAY come with them, is that if the car has been looked after and regularly serviced by a reputable (not necessarily OPC) and not driven by a total KNOB half it's life, you'll be fine. Even then, apparently only approx. 5% of the 997.1's have problems with IMS/BORE SCORING issues. I would also hazard a guess that the 5% of affected cars HAVE been driven by KNOBS!

Matter of interest, just how can a high performance engine like the 911 997 really be abused so badly on UK roads.

There's basically no where to drive them fast without being filmed, to over rev a 911 engine in anything less than third you'd need to be travelling flat out at serious speeds. In the South East there basically is no where to drive at high speed for any serious distance.

Unless they've all been doing doughnuts in the local supermarket car park being ragged from cold ALL over the UK (cause that's where its happening) then I just can't see where they can be abused for long enough to cause damage. Dropping the clutch at the lights maybe? .....

Well unless they've all been tracked all day for a month that is whilst travelling in 2nd..

I know of two personally that have gone bang. My brother in laws father 911 cab, had covered 37K from new, he's near seventy and was tootling to the South of France with his wife on the AutoRoute when it went bang.

OPC wanted 17K to repair/replace it, he got it done by an Indie for a 11K. I told him to keep up the OPC warranty, but he wouldn't listen. Silly fella.

Edited by Wozy68 on Monday 23 March 21:23

[zulash]

As i said ..... 5%, go out and get your 997.1 whizzer. Be careful, make sure you have a good warranty in place & above all buy her from a good source & be assured a KNOBHEAD hasn't owned her before you :-) p.s. pick mine up tomorrow will keep you posted .... prior to catastrophic failure!

[Evolved]

I'm not convinced by that assumption and if it were my money wouldn't be banking on hear say either. The main reason I've never dabbled with any of Porsches offerings post air cooled has been the worry of IMS failure and bore scoring, too much like a hot potato for me to be sinking 20k+ into.

Didn't realise the 997.2 had rectified the problem though, good to read but I guess that's why they command a premium price wise.

[mollytherocker]

zulash said:

As i said ..... 5%, go out and get your 997.1 whizzer. Be careful, make sure you have a good warranty in place & above all buy her from a good source & be assured a KNOBHEAD hasn't owned her before you :-) p.s. pick mine up tomorrow will keep you posted .... prior to catastrophic failure!

What do you mean by knobhead owner and how do you know a previous owner wasnt one?

[zulash]

I know the 997.2 has rectified the IMS issue by no longer having the IM shaft in the engine, but i don't understand how the bore scoring problem has been cured quite happy to be educated though!