Germanwings A320 crashed in France :(
Discussion
danjama said:
Would this episode even be registered on a persons medical history?
I do completely see your point, and you've conveyed it in a way we can all relate to. But there are obviously different categories/stages of depression that i'm not well versed in, and there should be a level of depression that should mean 'No entry to the profession of piloting a commercial jet'.
I understand to an extent where you're coming from and while I don't agree a level of previous depression should be used a measurement of someone's suitability to fly a plane in the present day, I do think that mental history as a totality should be considered. I do completely see your point, and you've conveyed it in a way we can all relate to. But there are obviously different categories/stages of depression that i'm not well versed in, and there should be a level of depression that should mean 'No entry to the profession of piloting a commercial jet'.
IE - should a person who as a teenager suffered from mild to serious depression for a year and has since recovered with no repeat episodes and passes all tests 15 years later be allowed to fly the plane?
Yes.
Should a person who as a teenager started having depressive episodes and has suffered multiple times since with psychotic episodes, suicidal thoughts and a history of attempted suicide be allowed to fly the plane? No.
It's a far wider subject than simply depression. More a generic header of mental state as a totality.
Reading some of the posts on PPRUNE ... 'low cost' airlines, poor salaries, penny pinching, and bullying management ... it's no wonder some pilots seem more susceptible to depression than folk in other careers. This low cost ethos is going too far. Doesn't O'leary make his staff bring in their own pencils? Do the accountants make the pilots chip in on the aircraft fuel as well? Real time flight data transmission? No, the cost against the number of lives saved makes it uneconomical .. just keep looking for that FDR, and invent some more double bluff door security systems. Sad days, the industry needs to change.
Edited by GSE on Friday 27th March 00:10
GSE said:
Reading some of the posts on PPRUNE ... 'low cost' airlines, poor salaries, penny pinching, and bullying management ... it's no wonder some pilots seem more susceptible to depression than folk in other careers. This low cost ethos is going too far. Doesn't O'leary make his staff bring in their own pencils? Do the accountants make the staff chip in on the aircraft fuel as well? Real time flight data transmission? No, the cost against the number of lives saved makes it uneconomical .. just keep looking for that FDR, and invent some more double bluff door security systems. Sad days, the industry needs to change.
Well said.FrankAbagnale said:
I understand to an extent where you're coming from and while I don't agree a level of previous depression should be used a measurement of someone's suitability to fly a plane in the present day, I do think that mental history as a totality should be considered.
IE - should a person who as a teenager suffered from mild to serious depression for a year and has since recovered with no repeat episodes and passes all tests 15 years later be allowed to fly the plane?
Yes.
Should a person who as a teenager started having depressive episodes and has suffered multiple times since with psychotic episodes, suicidal thoughts and a history of attempted suicide be allowed to fly the plane? No.
It's a far wider subject than simply depression. More a generic header of mental state as a totality.
It's all food for thought. IE - should a person who as a teenager suffered from mild to serious depression for a year and has since recovered with no repeat episodes and passes all tests 15 years later be allowed to fly the plane?
Yes.
Should a person who as a teenager started having depressive episodes and has suffered multiple times since with psychotic episodes, suicidal thoughts and a history of attempted suicide be allowed to fly the plane? No.
It's a far wider subject than simply depression. More a generic header of mental state as a totality.
GSE said:
Reading some of the posts on PPRUNE ... 'low cost' airlines, poor salaries, penny pinching, and bullying management ... it's no wonder some pilots seem more susceptible to depression than folk in other careers. This low cost ethos is going too far. Doesn't O'leary make his staff bring in their own pencils? Do the accountants make the staff chip in on the aircraft fuel as well? Real time flight data transmission? No, the cost against the number of lives saved makes it uneconomical .. just keep looking for that FDR, and invent some more double bluff door security systems. Sad days, the industry needs to change.
Weren't cabin staff for one of the low cost airlines expected to pay for their training? It's a bit like expecting police recruits to pay to do some police entrance course to get in. The aviation industry is just using the cost cutting techniques used in other industries. Look at Tesco expecting their suppliers to cover the cost of BOGOFs and pay to be positioned favourably in their stores.Taken from PPRUNE:
"According to a report by German tabloid Bild, six years ago the co-pilot had to interrupt his training for six months due to a "major depressive episode". Apparently he was in psychiatric care during that time. The report further states that in his personell file it is noted he should get special medical care regularly.
Although Bild is usually well connected, they tend to dramatize, so take this with a grain of salt. That said, I am astonished that a guy with severe depressive episodes gets a front seat in an airliner."
I would say this man should NOT have been piloting a commercial jet in any capacity, ever.
"According to a report by German tabloid Bild, six years ago the co-pilot had to interrupt his training for six months due to a "major depressive episode". Apparently he was in psychiatric care during that time. The report further states that in his personell file it is noted he should get special medical care regularly.
Although Bild is usually well connected, they tend to dramatize, so take this with a grain of salt. That said, I am astonished that a guy with severe depressive episodes gets a front seat in an airliner."
I would say this man should NOT have been piloting a commercial jet in any capacity, ever.
danjama said:
Oakey said:
Right, if only they had banned him from flying on the basis he would go nuts and crash a plane killing 150 people at some point in the future. It makes perfect sense.
Lets put it another way then.Would you be happy to be a passenger on an aircraft piloted by a man with a depression stained past?
I know I wouldn't. But they are out there flying people around.
A job that is reponsible for human lives should not be carried out by a depressive personality. End of, regardless of whether it lasted for 2 days in 1962 or 6 months in 2010.
danjama said:
eharding said:
You seem very passionate about this. Do you have a personal history of depression that is under-pinning your argument?
ETA: I would hope we all here agree with my premise laid out on previous page of posts and quoted above!Edited by danjama on Thursday 26th March 23:02
NEEP said:
There is a big difference between suffering from depression and the having the Psychotic episode that seems to have taken place here. Do you label all people that suffer from depression as "disturbed tossers". And that they all should be "put away" as you so succinctly put it.
I'm just very very disappointed that something like this should have been allowed to happen. And I'm afraid that I do think that we need to be prepared to be less tolerant, and more judgemental. This has been a case of mass murder. cardigankid said:
NEEP said:
There is a big difference between suffering from depression and the having the Psychotic episode that seems to have taken place here. Do you label all people that suffer from depression as "disturbed tossers". And that they all should be "put away" as you so succinctly put it.
I'm just very very disappointed that something like this should have been allowed to happen. And I'm afraid that I do think that we need to be prepared to be less tolerant, and more judgemental. This has been a case of mass murder. This is an incredibly rare event and whilst it is terrible for all the victims I don't think demonising the depressed is going to help in any way.
hidetheelephants said:
Quite apart from the fact having depression does not automatically have you reaching for the mess Webley, it also does not mean you can't function as a useful human being. Please educate yourself(the same goes for cardigankid and any other fellow travellers) about it, it might save you from writing nonsense. It's stone-age attitudes like this which discourage people from acknowledging mental problems and seeking appropriate help. Are pilots more or less likely to seek help if they know it will guarantee instant and permanent loss of their livelihood?
I didn't say and I didnt even imply that people with any kind of depression history can't function as normal human beings. I explicitly stated that they should not be allowed a job in which the fate of hundreds of humans are in their hands. I know depression, I have friends and family who succumbed to depression. No prejudice here, just seems like common sense to me. greygoose said:
Most families seem to have one person or more who has had depression or mental illness at some point in their lives, I am not sure being less tolerant and more judgemental would be helpful, it is more likely to stop people seeking help which is the last thing we as a society need.
This is an incredibly rare event and whilst it is terrible for all the victims I don't think demonising the depressed is going to help in any way.
Well said.This is an incredibly rare event and whilst it is terrible for all the victims I don't think demonising the depressed is going to help in any way.
We live in an era of institutionalised tolerance, where decisions based on common sense are not taken and the consequences are someone else's problem. I do not believe that anyone with any history of mental instability (and I exclude teenage tiffs with your girlfriend/boyfriend) should be placed in a highly responsible position, like that of an airline pilot. If that affects your career, tough.
On the other hand, I think that an issue which society has never dealt with, and to which our attitudes remain Victorian, is in socialisation. We are all so busy being in with the right crowd for our own purposes, that we ignore the maladjusted loner. This might be yet another example of an act by such an individual, but there have been many. From earliest schooldays, all children should be encouraged and helped to integrate socially, find their particular talents or interests if you like, and identified if they are going off the rails. If this does not happen, and these people end up as embittered cranks wandering the streets, the only solution at that point is to remove them from society before they harm someone, 'put away' as I said earlier. Hard but essential.
I expect lunacy in official decisions in the UK. Somehow I believe that Germany will be better, which for me makes this terrible tragedy particularly sad.
On the other hand, I think that an issue which society has never dealt with, and to which our attitudes remain Victorian, is in socialisation. We are all so busy being in with the right crowd for our own purposes, that we ignore the maladjusted loner. This might be yet another example of an act by such an individual, but there have been many. From earliest schooldays, all children should be encouraged and helped to integrate socially, find their particular talents or interests if you like, and identified if they are going off the rails. If this does not happen, and these people end up as embittered cranks wandering the streets, the only solution at that point is to remove them from society before they harm someone, 'put away' as I said earlier. Hard but essential.
I expect lunacy in official decisions in the UK. Somehow I believe that Germany will be better, which for me makes this terrible tragedy particularly sad.
cardigankid said:
We live in an era of institutionalised tolerance, where decisions based on common sense are not taken and the consequences are someone else's problem. I do not believe that anyone with any history of mental instability (and I exclude teenage tiffs with your girlfriend/boyfriend) should be placed in a highly responsible position, like that of an airline pilot. If that affects your career, tough.
On the other hand, I think that an issue which society has never dealt with, and to which our attitudes remain Victorian, is in socialisation. We are all so busy being in with the right crowd for our own purposes, that we ignore the maladjusted loner. This might be yet another example of an act by such an individual, but there have been many. From earliest schooldays, all children should be encouraged and helped to integrate socially, find their particular talents or interests if you like, and identified if they are going off the rails. If this does not happen, and these people end up as embittered cranks wandering the streets, the only solution at that point is to remove them from society before they harm someone, 'put away' as I said earlier. Hard but essential.
I expect lunacy in official decisions in the UK. Somehow I believe that Germany will be better, which for me makes this terrible tragedy particularly sad.
Anyone who doesn't fit in with the "norm" is put away, sounds like a North Korean approach to society.On the other hand, I think that an issue which society has never dealt with, and to which our attitudes remain Victorian, is in socialisation. We are all so busy being in with the right crowd for our own purposes, that we ignore the maladjusted loner. This might be yet another example of an act by such an individual, but there have been many. From earliest schooldays, all children should be encouraged and helped to integrate socially, find their particular talents or interests if you like, and identified if they are going off the rails. If this does not happen, and these people end up as embittered cranks wandering the streets, the only solution at that point is to remove them from society before they harm someone, 'put away' as I said earlier. Hard but essential.
I expect lunacy in official decisions in the UK. Somehow I believe that Germany will be better, which for me makes this terrible tragedy particularly sad.
GSE said:
Reading some of the posts on PPRUNE ... 'low cost' airlines, poor salaries, penny pinching, and bullying management ... it's no wonder some pilots seem more susceptible to depression than folk in other careers. This low cost ethos is going too far. Doesn't O'leary make his staff bring in their own pencils? Do the accountants make the pilots chip in on the aircraft fuel as well? Real time flight data transmission? No, the cost against the number of lives saved makes it uneconomical .. just keep looking for that FDR, and invent some more double bluff door security systems. Sad days, the industry needs to change.
All the low cost airlines are doing is giving the customers what they want. That's why they're so successful.Edited by GSE on Friday 27th March 00:10
Would Wayne and Waynetta really pay £350 for their flight from Luton to Tenerife instead of the £49 per person they did pay?!
greygoose said:
Most families seem to have one person or more who has had depression or mental illness at some point in their lives, I am not sure being less tolerant and more judgemental would be helpful, it is more likely to stop people seeking help which is the last thing we as a society need.
This is an incredibly rare event and whilst it is terrible for all the victims I don't think demonising the depressed is going to help in any way.
Depression is an illness, potentially serious - 5,000 or so people succumb to it annually in the UK. With proper, managed and maintained treatment the symptoms can usually be controlled to a large degree.This is an incredibly rare event and whilst it is terrible for all the victims I don't think demonising the depressed is going to help in any way.
That said, I think someone with a history of depression should be disqualified from from certain occupations where there is a risk of harm to others, much as is done with other medical conditions.
If it turns out it wasn't depression but something linked to what they found in the house then I feel sorry for the Pilots who have beaten the 'black dog' but may well be under the microscope now despite being 'normal' again.
You can guarantee that the airlines already have been through the medical records to check.
You can guarantee that the airlines already have been through the medical records to check.
GSE said:
Reading some of the posts on PPRUNE ... 'low cost' airlines, poor salaries, penny pinching, and bullying management ... it's no wonder some pilots seem more susceptible to depression than folk in other careers. This low cost ethos is going too far. Doesn't O'leary make his staff bring in their own pencils? Do the accountants make the pilots chip in on the aircraft fuel as well? Real time flight data transmission? No, the cost against the number of lives saved makes it uneconomical .. just keep looking for that FDR, and invent some more double bluff door security systems. Sad days, the industry needs to change.
Definitely this. Airlines and management making life unnecessarily difficult for the crew, piss poor wages and borderline contempt from management for crew does not make for happy employees. I'd go so far as to say that given the right (or wrong) set of circumstances, such as financial hardship, anyone and everyone is susceptible to depression to some extent. If they focussed a little effort towards making life a little more pleasant it would be one less contributory factor towards any potential depressive state.Edited by GSE on Friday 27th March 00:10
I'm sure this has probably been mentioned before but pilots are well aware of health issues that affect their medical. To the extent that if it's something that will affect the issue of the medical they'll try to deal with it themselves rather than seek professional help. Not something you want to happen with depression! Those stating that any history of depression should result in never flying professionally again are not being realistic.
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