Germanwings A320 crashed in France :(
Discussion
NicD said:
Please disclose the source for your 'statistics'.
You demean newspapers then present some made up and extreme numbers.
How are we in a 'sweet spot'? For gods sake, this disturbed man just killed 150 souls. We don't have the facts for the Malaysian Airlines loss, but a similar theory has been put forward.
You are personally involved from a vivid experience so not a reliable advocate. A lack of personal experience far from disqualifying me, actually disqualifies you.
You are putting the interests of the disturbed way ahead of those likely to be injured by them.
No, there are no magic solve everything asnwers - he makes the point quite simply. I agree of course with the idea of finding a way of catching the 0.00001% mentalist, but if in doing so you expose the 10% of the population with some milder form of mental issue to greater risk of no treatment - indeed risking creating more mentalists - then you aren't actually solving the overall problem at all, and are potentially making it worse.You demean newspapers then present some made up and extreme numbers.
How are we in a 'sweet spot'? For gods sake, this disturbed man just killed 150 souls. We don't have the facts for the Malaysian Airlines loss, but a similar theory has been put forward.
You are personally involved from a vivid experience so not a reliable advocate. A lack of personal experience far from disqualifying me, actually disqualifies you.
You are putting the interests of the disturbed way ahead of those likely to be injured by them.
Having said that, there is perhaps a discussion about whether some jobs are incompatible with certain physical/mental issues.
As someone with very bad eyesight, I was aware some of my (desired) career options were off the table before I left school - including being a pilot. Disappointing, but it wasn't (and should not be) the end of the world.
Edited by ///ajd on Sunday 29th March 11:04
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hstewie said:
hstewie said:NicD said:
Please disclose the source for your 'statistics'.
You demean newspapers then present some made up and extreme numbers.
How are we in a 'sweet spot'? For gods sake, this disturbed man just killed 150 souls. We don't have the facts for the Malaysian Airlines loss, but a similar theory has been put forward.
You are personally involved from a vivid experience so not a reliable advocate. A lack of personal experience far from disqualifying me, actually disqualifies you.
You are putting the interests of the disturbed way ahead of those likely to be injured by them.
There's no more risk today or tomorrow of this happening again than there was the morning of the accident - you can pretty much count on one hand (maybe two) the known cases of pilot suicide.You demean newspapers then present some made up and extreme numbers.
How are we in a 'sweet spot'? For gods sake, this disturbed man just killed 150 souls. We don't have the facts for the Malaysian Airlines loss, but a similar theory has been put forward.
You are personally involved from a vivid experience so not a reliable advocate. A lack of personal experience far from disqualifying me, actually disqualifies you.
You are putting the interests of the disturbed way ahead of those likely to be injured by them.
Dunblane happened and the answer was ban hand guns, guy with mental issues has an episode and now the answer is apparently, ban mental illness.
Of course there is a point at which there is no alternative but to remove people from a situation, but you don't encourage people to seek treatment by demonising them and making clear that if they do, their working career is essentially over if they fall into any of the employment categories that you deem a risk.
Think it through, what if the guy down your local water works has a psychotic episode and puts something nasty in the water supply?
What if the guy driving the 40 ton artic has a breakdown and thinks "Oh f
k it" as he goes past the school bus, or the school bus driver as he arrives at the school?It simply isn't workable and is an emotive response to a very unlikely situation.
Pathetic.
NicD said:
Oh, fab, we can all relax, its under control. Nothing to see here folks.
Pathetic.
I'd suggest no more so than simply suggesting that moving a few million people into unemployment and making a few million more too worried of the consequences of seeking help is the way to bring things "under control".Pathetic.
NicD said:
Justify your position all you like.
Who is missing the point?
Why was he still able to fly?
Because he slipped through the net - it's that simple.Who is missing the point?
Why was he still able to fly?
Procedures will be changed so it's harder to happen again, but don't let's kid ourselves that it couldn't happen again.
Once you've sorted out all the rogue pilots out there what profession do you suggest is tackled next?
BrabusMog said:
I can't believe he has managed to kill 150 people along with himself, why couldn't he just throw himself off a multi storey car park? Genuinely shocked by this.
Not a doctor but...If it is the case that his girlfriend had recently split up with him then it's possible that in his mental state, he did it to punish her.
"You said you loved me now you don't care. You always knew I had a temper, I only wanted to love you, now look what you've made me do! It's all your fault!"
I've known people who when they get into the troth of depression don't just sit a corner, they lash out at people, lovers, friends, workmates or family because they believe they are making it worse or that's it their fault the person is in the fix in the first place. The police have suggested that they didn't find a note at his house but that doesn't mean someone didn't get one as he would have wanted to tell her it was all her fault.
Terrible, terrible event.
Remember. Not a doctor.
Talking with a friend last night, he tells me that in the States, the locked cockpit door policy implemented post 911, has always been reliant on a minimum of 2 pilots in the cockpit at all times. It's only in Europe that a single pilot has been allowed? If there were two pilots on this flight may be there would have been a better chance of preventing this tragedy. If so, the airline accountants need to look in their pockets.
GSE said:
Talking with a friend last night, he tells me that in the States, the locked cockpit door policy implemented post 911, has always been reliant on a minimum of 2 pilots in the cockpit at all times. It's only in Europe that a single pilot has been allowed? If there were two pilots on this flight may be there would have been a better chance of preventing this tragedy. If so, the airline accountants need to look in their pockets.
It's true that in the US they have a 'two in the cockpit' rule. It's not so clear that the motivation for this has much to do with the post-9/11 door policy, or indeed pilot suicide. It might be more to do with safety and alertness, for instance. It's now hard to find out much about the origin without running into contemporary reports.kapiteinlangzaam said:
NicD said:
Justify your position all you like.
Who is missing the point?
Why was he still able to fly?
Ill justify it all day long, because as a professional ATCO who is passionate about the job, im also passionate about preserving the current (working) system from reactionary people who have no interest in actually solving the 'problem' and only in grabbing headlines or making bold statements to gain some sort of media or political traction. This is at the expense of people like me, my colleagues, and ultimately the public that we strive every day to keep safe.Who is missing the point?
Why was he still able to fly?
You are missing the point, in its entirety.
He was still able to fly because he was an utter mental-case who was hell-bent on destruction. Again, you cant engineer this out of the system with generic protocols. The nutters, by their nature, will find a way around this.
GSE said:
Talking with a friend last night, he tells me that in the States, the locked cockpit door policy implemented post 911, has always been reliant on a minimum of 2 pilots in the cockpit at all times. It's only in Europe that a single pilot has been allowed? If there were two pilots on this flight may be there would have been a better chance of preventing this tragedy. If so, the airline accountants need to look in their pockets.
I believe the US has 2 'crew' in the cockpit at all times i.e. when one Pilot leaves a cabin crew member takes their place until they return.They do not have 2 Pilots and a 'reserve' sitting in the cabin just in case one of the two up front wants to take a comfort break.
Having another guy may have made a difference or he could just have been knocked out or hit with the axe by the other guy and the end result was the same.
There was an incident on a cargo flight years ago where the third Pilot in the jump seat had a 'bad day' and proceeded to beat the other two with a hammer after take off so having an extra person on the flight deck is not necessarily a good idea.
Happy to be corrected, but I believe that the 2 crew policy also serves a purpose because the cameras fitted to these aircraft do not provide total coverage for a single crew member to assess that the galley is clear from threats.
Other Cockpit Door Surveillance systems provide three separate cameras and so total coverage of the area around the door. In this case is argue that a 2nd person on the flight deck isn't nevessary.
Other Cockpit Door Surveillance systems provide three separate cameras and so total coverage of the area around the door. In this case is argue that a 2nd person on the flight deck isn't nevessary.
GSE said:
Talking with a friend last night, he tells me that in the States, the locked cockpit door policy implemented post 911, has always been reliant on a minimum of 2 pilots in the cockpit at all times. It's only in Europe that a single pilot has been allowed? If there were two pilots on this flight may be there would have been a better chance of preventing this tragedy. If so, the airline accountants need to look in their pockets.
May not be entirely true. I understand United has only just implemented the policy, post Germanwings.hornetrider said:
Oh my god. Looks like Bild have the transcript of the CVR with timings. It seems the passengers were screaming for between 5 and 8 minutes before the impact. Horrific.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3016466/Op...
just read that - absolutely awful and heartbreaking for the loved ones of those killed. It is the stuff of nightmares. Certainly makes it more difficult to feel any 'sympathy' towards the co-pilot's depression.http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3016466/Op...
I looked into it a bit more and it would appear from a cursory look that there is no FAA regulation that requires it - you're free to leave the cockpit for "physiological needs" provided a suitable qualified pilot remains in control.
US airlines, however, must have a security policy that complies with TSA regulations, and these are secret.
You can see it being discussed in 2012 here: http://www.pprune.org/pacific-general-aviation-que...
US airlines, however, must have a security policy that complies with TSA regulations, and these are secret.
You can see it being discussed in 2012 here: http://www.pprune.org/pacific-general-aviation-que...
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