UKIP - The Future - Volume 4

Author
Discussion

NicD

3,281 posts

256 months

Saturday 18th April 2015
quotequote all
FiF said:
Guam said:
It's another variant of the gotcha game and it's pretty pathetic
Speculate on an unknown and you get nailed for it
Don't and you still get nailed for it
It's pathetic and they are using a tried and tested hard left maxim known as the precautionary principle
"This could happen so safer not to risk it"
They know it's bks and so does anyone with an intellect higher than a fruit fly
Indeed plus the other issue is the one eyed nature of things.

Nobody with any common sense believes that a Brexit would be anything other than complicated, need careful negotiations and thoughtful approach with compromises.

Several academic and business analyses as to how this can be accomplished yet we see the accusation that people think there is the expectation that GB will give notice and the EU will offer up everything requested. Total strawman bks.

Then when the issue of the unknowns are acknowledged there is the immediate assumption that the outcome of the unknowns will always be guaranteed to be as negative as possible with no negatives or risks attached to remaining in the EU. That's just ignored e.g. the exposure and risk of 110 billion to the European Union including exposure of 60 billion to the European Financial Stabilisation Mechanism, if 26 nations screw up then the 27th pays up. Then the billions of exposure to the European Central Bank and European Investment bank. Bob Lyddon's Bruges Grp paper ref.

Seems to me the adults in this are people who openly acknowledge it's a difficult scenario and could go either way as best solution, but that there isn't enough information yet to make a decision. A lot hangs on any reform, nothing there then for me it's a decision already made, on balance it to come out. With reforms then it depends.
Of course, delicate but firm negotiations needing nothing more said at this stage.

mrpurple

2,624 posts

187 months

Saturday 18th April 2015
quotequote all
Guam said:
steveT350C said:
BBC to give Farage his own TV slot for 30mins of questions

http://www.express.co.uk/news/politics/571294/Nige...
I think this may prove to be the beginning of the end for the BBC
This was a huge miscalculation by them IMHO
They have confirmed the longstanding claims of bias made by many over the years
I think we will see increasing pressure to tear up the charter and force them to go private

They broke the public trust with that utter stich up
I doubt it will just be allowed to slide this time
Wonder what Amy Rutland is up to nowdays?

anonymous-user

53 months

Saturday 18th April 2015
quotequote all
Scuffers said:
cookie118 said:
UKIP do seem pretty certain that as a minimum they will achieve a free trade deal from any negotiations, I think there is speculating, where you gather the relevant data together and make a valid prediction based on the knowns and unknowns, and then there is speculating the kind where you pull a finger out and base it on nothing.
sorry, but you seem to be on the speculating trail?

in the real world, trade is done between businesses, not governments.
I'm sorry but how is:

UKIP manifesto said:
As a minimum, we will seek continued access on free-trade terms to the EU’s single market.
speculating that UKIP say they will achieve a free trade deal from EU negotiations during/post Brexit? It says the minimum they will accept is the continuation of free trade with the EU.

I don't think that I'm playing a blame game, if UKIP or anti-EU people could demonstrate in cold hard numbers that leaving the EU would be beneficial to the UK whilst continuing to then I'd actually be willing to vote for it. At the moment though there are arguments for and against and the idea, with no clear consensus at all.

FiF

43,960 posts

250 months

Saturday 18th April 2015
quotequote all
Guam said:
mrpurple said:
Wonder what Amy Rutland is up to nowdays?
Other reports are suggesting they bussed audience in from Scotland and Wales to pad the numbers with more anti Tory shouty types

I expect this to cause further division in the electorate
The question here is do UKIP and the Tories have the smarts and backbone to turn this into a campaign matter
The problem is they will have to appeal purely to English voters
It's potentially a seminal moment if used cleverly imho
So in a nutshell is it now being said that rather than Farage losing it by commenting on the audience that he did a Farage and said it like it is.

Also if this was truly selected independently by ICM what does this say about the pollster(s)?

No doubt the excuse is that the audience was intended to represent the makeup of the speakers and as Cons and Lib weren't there so the selection followed that.

But agreed this could perhaps should be a pause for reflection moment at broadcasting house. If they carry on as before then the buggers need to be nailed.

wc98

10,334 posts

139 months

Saturday 18th April 2015
quotequote all
FredClogs said:
I wasn't surprised Nigel turned on the audience last night, it was quite clear that even though Dimbleby quickly put him straight he'd achieved his objective which was to appeal to those at home who believe all this LibLabCon conspiracy BBC bias McCarthyism nonsense.

Luckily Farage is ever appealing to a narrowing section of the disaffected, it's quite clear he's taken the paranoia and conspiracy schtick too far and whilst it might appeal to his core his end game is going to be a strong cabal of crypto fascists and conspiracy nut jobs - which is where he was 3 years ago. Even the tacit support of Desmond now (an absolute disgrace of a man) I think Farage and UKIP will fall away to nothing before May 7th
what did dimbleby put him straight on ? the subsequent analysis of the audience proved farage correct in his assertion.

wc98

10,334 posts

139 months

Saturday 18th April 2015
quotequote all
Guam said:
Indeed but paying folk shedloads to give money away?
Where do we sign up for high paying non jobs like this?
i think the main requirement is being born into the establishment. bit like all the thick kids back in the day going to work in british consuls ,or employed by the modern day phenomena of quango,s.

wc98

10,334 posts

139 months

Saturday 18th April 2015
quotequote all
JustAnotherLogin said:
We don't know what impact the EUs actions would have on u, so all the possible negative impacts of losing the finance industry, the car industry, quietly swept under the carpet.

Disgracefully deceptive to claim that its "fully costed" Or incredibly naive to assume that there would be no negative implications of Brexit
would be interested to see your assessment of the tory manifesto on the conservative thread . i will not hold my breath though.

wc98

10,334 posts

139 months

Saturday 18th April 2015
quotequote all
steveT350C said:
BBC to give Farage his own TV slot for 30mins of questions

http://www.express.co.uk/news/politics/571294/Nige...
unfortunately not in scotland from what i can see. will have to catch it on i player.

wc98

10,334 posts

139 months

Saturday 18th April 2015
quotequote all
Guam said:
Your not getting this are you?
It's not about the facts it's about the narrative
Right or wrong is decided on ideological grounds, they neatly ignore the half of that word that matters whenever it suits them smile
smile sorry,you are perfectly correct. never been known for my quick uptake .

don4l

10,058 posts

175 months

Saturday 18th April 2015
quotequote all
FredClogs said:
Scuffers said:
After last night, I truly hope the wider electorate have a better grasp on reality than the audience last night, if not, we are shurley f**ked!
I wasn't surprised Nigel turned on the audience last night, it was quite clear that even though Dimbleby quickly put him straight he'd achieved his objective which was to appeal to those at home who believe all this LibLabCon conspiracy BBC bias McCarthyism nonsense.
So, Mr Clogs, now that the facts have emerged, are you going to admit that you were wrong?

Farage was absolutely correct.

Dimbleby lied. He should resign. If he worked for an honourable organisation, he would be sacked.

Countdown

39,690 posts

195 months

Saturday 18th April 2015
quotequote all
wc98 said:
what did dimbleby put him straight on ? the subsequent analysis of the audience proved farage correct in his assertion.
Apologies as I missed this. Could you point me towards the analysis that proved Farage correct? Looking back I can only find a link to Breitbart.

smn159

12,448 posts

216 months

Saturday 18th April 2015
quotequote all
don4l said:
So, Mr Clogs, now that the facts have emerged, are you going to admit that you were wrong?

Farage was absolutely correct.

Dimbleby lied. He should resign. If he worked for an honourable organisation, he would be sacked.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/politics/ukip/11546405/Ukip-says-BBC-exposed-over-left-wing-debate-audience.html

article said:
The BBC used ICM and “set out clear objectives to ensure there [was] a broad range of political preferences”...
About 20 per cent of the audience were undecided. Of those who were decided there were five Conservative voters for every five Labour, four Lib Dem, three Ukip, two SNP, two Green and one Plaid Cymru voter, the BBC said.
So a ratio of 12 for the current government plus UKIP, 10 for the rest with 20% undecided

Sounds reasonable to me

steveT350C

6,728 posts

160 months

Saturday 18th April 2015
quotequote all
From the Shropshire Star


don4l

10,058 posts

175 months

Saturday 18th April 2015
quotequote all
smn159 said:
don4l said:
So, Mr Clogs, now that the facts have emerged, are you going to admit that you were wrong?

Farage was absolutely correct.

Dimbleby lied. He should resign. If he worked for an honourable organisation, he would be sacked.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/politics/ukip/11546405/Ukip-says-BBC-exposed-over-left-wing-debate-audience.html

article said:
The BBC used ICM and “set out clear objectives to ensure there [was] a broad range of political preferences”...
About 20 per cent of the audience were undecided. Of those who were decided there were five Conservative voters for every five Labour, four Lib Dem, three Ukip, two SNP, two Green and one Plaid Cymru voter, the BBC said.
So a ratio of 12 for the current government plus UKIP, 10 for the rest with 20% undecided

Sounds reasonable to me
I think that you must have missed the first sentence in that article. Here it is:-
Telegraph said:
Figures released by BBC show that only 58 members of the audience were Conservative or Ukip supporters compared with about 102 who supported left-leaning parties
So, two thirds of the audience, by the BBC's own admission, were lefties.

smn159

12,448 posts

216 months

Saturday 18th April 2015
quotequote all
don4l said:
So, two thirds of the audience, by the BBC's own admission, were lefties.
Ah, you're classing the Lib Dems, who have been in coalition for 5 years with the Tories, as 'lefties'.

I see.

Scuffers

20,887 posts

273 months

Saturday 18th April 2015
quotequote all
smn159 said:
don4l said:
So, two thirds of the audience, by the BBC's own admission, were lefties.
Ah, you're classing the Lib Dems, who have been in coalition for 5 years with the Tories, as 'lefties'.

I see.
Ok, what would you call them?

(Considering the Tories are nothing like right wing these days)


All that said, i think leftist these days is more about tax & spend policies as opposed to real social justice policies.

The criticism of the audience is more about their blind clapping for anybody suggesting spending more money is the way forward, in the face of a massive debt and huge deficit, ie. Living on the planet zarg.

NicD

3,281 posts

256 months

Saturday 18th April 2015
quotequote all
smn159 said:
don4l said:
So, two thirds of the audience, by the BBC's own admission, were lefties.
Ah, you're classing the Lib Dems, who have been in coalition for 5 years with the Tories, as 'lefties'.

I see.
I think we can safely disregard the stated allegiances as unreliable and frankly I suggest there should be NO studio audience at al.
It is impossible to make such a thing balanced and representative.
At best, it will be a bunch of activists who 'represent' the extremes of their chosen faith.

Mojocvh

16,837 posts

261 months

Saturday 18th April 2015
quotequote all
It's awesome how the truth about the BBC is coming out.

Fit for purpose? Nope.

don4l

10,058 posts

175 months

Saturday 18th April 2015
quotequote all
smn159 said:
don4l said:
So, two thirds of the audience, by the BBC's own admission, were lefties.
Ah, you're classing the Lib Dems, who have been in coalition for 5 years with the Tories, as 'lefties'.

I see.
Perhaps you should read the bit that I quoted again. You missed it when you read the original article, and you seem to have missed it again when you failed to read my post properly. Because you are struggling, I will kindly highlight the relevant part of the sentence.


Telegraph said:
Figures released by BBC show that only 58 members of the audience were Conservative or Ukip supporters compared with about 102 who supported left-leaning parties

rohrl

8,712 posts

144 months

Saturday 18th April 2015
quotequote all
An English teacher marks the UKIP flyer which was posted through her door.

http://www.thepoke.co.uk/2015/04/17/english-teache...