UKIP - The Future - Volume 4
Discussion
jagnet said:
Your frustration reflects my own. So Labour / SNP / Plaid / Greens are standing on a platform of keeping out the Torieeees. The Tories are standing on a platform of keeping out Labour whilst dismissing their best hope of defeating Labour in their heartlands as fruitcakes, loonies and closet racists (such political genius). Manifestos as usual appear to simply be a collection of bribes to certain target demographics.
Is it any wonder that so many people don't feel enthused to go out and vote and that the only party that really seems to be attracting previous non voters is UKIP. Yet the suggestion is that those UKIP voters should forego the opportunity to vote for a party that they feel best represents them and instead lend their vote to a party that has derided and insulted them for so long, and one so arrogant as to have believed that it was all just protest voting and that come the election UKIP voters would dutifully "return home".
Ding ding ding ding ding ding! We have a winner. Is it any wonder that so many people don't feel enthused to go out and vote and that the only party that really seems to be attracting previous non voters is UKIP. Yet the suggestion is that those UKIP voters should forego the opportunity to vote for a party that they feel best represents them and instead lend their vote to a party that has derided and insulted them for so long, and one so arrogant as to have believed that it was all just protest voting and that come the election UKIP voters would dutifully "return home".
Axionknight said:
jagnet said:
Your frustration reflects my own. So Labour / SNP / Plaid / Greens are standing on a platform of keeping out the Torieeees. The Tories are standing on a platform of keeping out Labour whilst dismissing their best hope of defeating Labour in their heartlands as fruitcakes, loonies and closet racists (such political genius). Manifestos as usual appear to simply be a collection of bribes to certain target demographics.
Is it any wonder that so many people don't feel enthused to go out and vote and that the only party that really seems to be attracting previous non voters is UKIP. Yet the suggestion is that those UKIP voters should forego the opportunity to vote for a party that they feel best represents them and instead lend their vote to a party that has derided and insulted them for so long, and one so arrogant as to have believed that it was all just protest voting and that come the election UKIP voters would dutifully "return home".
Ding ding ding ding ding ding! We have a winner. Is it any wonder that so many people don't feel enthused to go out and vote and that the only party that really seems to be attracting previous non voters is UKIP. Yet the suggestion is that those UKIP voters should forego the opportunity to vote for a party that they feel best represents them and instead lend their vote to a party that has derided and insulted them for so long, and one so arrogant as to have believed that it was all just protest voting and that come the election UKIP voters would dutifully "return home".
Peter Hitchens today:
Worried about a Labour / SNP coalition? Perhaps lay the blame for that risk at the door of the Conservatives, demonstrating that they're just as capable as Labour of screwing over the country in the pursuit of power.
Having portrayed UKIP as the political bogeymen in the run up to the Euros, only to see UKIP support rise, they've then repeated the exercise with the SNP, hoping that the result would be different. Therein lies madness.
Peter Hitchens said:
Lord Tebbit is not the only Tory who has been appalled by the deliberate boosting of the SNP’s Nicola Sturgeon by such figures as Chief Whip Michael Gove and Chancellor George Osborne.
Both these men have acted like student politicians, helping one enemy to do down another. This may work in the tail-coated silly-clever struggles of the Oxford Union. But it is quite wrong when a real country is at stake.
When Tebbit says vote Labour, you know something’s gone very wrongBoth these men have acted like student politicians, helping one enemy to do down another. This may work in the tail-coated silly-clever struggles of the Oxford Union. But it is quite wrong when a real country is at stake.
Worried about a Labour / SNP coalition? Perhaps lay the blame for that risk at the door of the Conservatives, demonstrating that they're just as capable as Labour of screwing over the country in the pursuit of power.
Having portrayed UKIP as the political bogeymen in the run up to the Euros, only to see UKIP support rise, they've then repeated the exercise with the SNP, hoping that the result would be different. Therein lies madness.
jogon said:
Axionknight said:
jagnet said:
Your frustration reflects my own. So Labour / SNP / Plaid / Greens are standing on a platform of keeping out the Torieeees. The Tories are standing on a platform of keeping out Labour whilst dismissing their best hope of defeating Labour in their heartlands as fruitcakes, loonies and closet racists (such political genius). Manifestos as usual appear to simply be a collection of bribes to certain target demographics.
Is it any wonder that so many people don't feel enthused to go out and vote and that the only party that really seems to be attracting previous non voters is UKIP. Yet the suggestion is that those UKIP voters should forego the opportunity to vote for a party that they feel best represents them and instead lend their vote to a party that has derided and insulted them for so long, and one so arrogant as to have believed that it was all just protest voting and that come the election UKIP voters would dutifully "return home".
Ding ding ding ding ding ding! We have a winner. Is it any wonder that so many people don't feel enthused to go out and vote and that the only party that really seems to be attracting previous non voters is UKIP. Yet the suggestion is that those UKIP voters should forego the opportunity to vote for a party that they feel best represents them and instead lend their vote to a party that has derided and insulted them for so long, and one so arrogant as to have believed that it was all just protest voting and that come the election UKIP voters would dutifully "return home".
jagnet said:
Your frustration reflects my own. So Labour / SNP / Plaid / Greens are standing on a platform of keeping out the Torieeees. The Tories are standing on a platform of keeping out Labour whilst dismissing their best hope of defeating Labour in their heartlands as fruitcakes, loonies and closet racists (such political genius). Manifestos as usual appear to simply be a collection of bribes to certain target demographics.
Is it any wonder that so many people don't feel enthused to go out and vote and that the only party that really seems to be attracting previous non voters is UKIP. Yet the suggestion is that those UKIP voters should forego the opportunity to vote for a party that they feel best represents them and instead lend their vote to a party that has derided and insulted them for so long, and one so arrogant as to have believed that it was all just protest voting and that come the election UKIP voters would dutifully "return home".
Firstly there is no evidence that UKIP are successfully attracting previous non-voters yet. Only if they actually vote would non-voters be listed as any different from last timeIs it any wonder that so many people don't feel enthused to go out and vote and that the only party that really seems to be attracting previous non voters is UKIP. Yet the suggestion is that those UKIP voters should forego the opportunity to vote for a party that they feel best represents them and instead lend their vote to a party that has derided and insulted them for so long, and one so arrogant as to have believed that it was all just protest voting and that come the election UKIP voters would dutifully "return home".
Secondly whilst one could say that the majors are arrogant to believe that they defectees are just protest voting, it is just as arrogant for the Kippers to believe that the Tories (say) should move to their position. If one believes that party leaders should act out of conviction, not popularity, then I think it is clear Cameron does believe in the direction he has taken his party. If on the other hand you believe they should pander to the most votes, then Cameron has attracted a lot of centrist votes that the sort of policies kippers believe in would not have done.
His real crime, with many people here, is that he does not agree with them.
And there is a more than a little hypocrisy in complaining about Kippers being called fruitcakes, racists and loonies, whilst at the same insulting voters for other parties of being stupid, prejudiced, lefty loonies, paedophile supporters and many other terms
mrpurple said:
jogon said:
Axionknight said:
jagnet said:
Your frustration reflects my own. So Labour / SNP / Plaid / Greens are standing on a platform of keeping out the Torieeees. The Tories are standing on a platform of keeping out Labour whilst dismissing their best hope of defeating Labour in their heartlands as fruitcakes, loonies and closet racists (such political genius). Manifestos as usual appear to simply be a collection of bribes to certain target demographics.
Is it any wonder that so many people don't feel enthused to go out and vote and that the only party that really seems to be attracting previous non voters is UKIP. Yet the suggestion is that those UKIP voters should forego the opportunity to vote for a party that they feel best represents them and instead lend their vote to a party that has derided and insulted them for so long, and one so arrogant as to have believed that it was all just protest voting and that come the election UKIP voters would dutifully "return home".
Ding ding ding ding ding ding! We have a winner. Is it any wonder that so many people don't feel enthused to go out and vote and that the only party that really seems to be attracting previous non voters is UKIP. Yet the suggestion is that those UKIP voters should forego the opportunity to vote for a party that they feel best represents them and instead lend their vote to a party that has derided and insulted them for so long, and one so arrogant as to have believed that it was all just protest voting and that come the election UKIP voters would dutifully "return home".
Spot-on-ness... 
jagnet said:
Peter Hitchens today:
Worried about a Labour / SNP coalition? Perhaps lay the blame for that risk at the door of the Conservatives, demonstrating that they're just as capable as Labour of screwing over the country in the pursuit of power.
Having portrayed UKIP as the political bogeymen in the run up to the Euros, only to see UKIP support rise, they've then repeated the exercise with the SNP, hoping that the result would be different. Therein lies madness.
Pretty certain Gove unequivocally said vote Labour rather than SNP on Newsnight last week.Peter Hitchens said:
Lord Tebbit is not the only Tory who has been appalled by the deliberate boosting of the SNP’s Nicola Sturgeon by such figures as Chief Whip Michael Gove and Chancellor George Osborne.
Both these men have acted like student politicians, helping one enemy to do down another. This may work in the tail-coated silly-clever struggles of the Oxford Union. But it is quite wrong when a real country is at stake.
When Tebbit says vote Labour, you know something’s gone very wrongBoth these men have acted like student politicians, helping one enemy to do down another. This may work in the tail-coated silly-clever struggles of the Oxford Union. But it is quite wrong when a real country is at stake.
Worried about a Labour / SNP coalition? Perhaps lay the blame for that risk at the door of the Conservatives, demonstrating that they're just as capable as Labour of screwing over the country in the pursuit of power.
Having portrayed UKIP as the political bogeymen in the run up to the Euros, only to see UKIP support rise, they've then repeated the exercise with the SNP, hoping that the result would be different. Therein lies madness.
JustAnotherLogin said:
Firstly there is no evidence that UKIP are successfully attracting previous non-voters yet. Only if they actually vote would non-voters be listed as any different from last time
Secondly whilst one could say that the majors are arrogant to believe that they defectees are just protest voting, it is just as arrogant for the Kippers to believe that the Tories (say) should move to their position. If one believes that party leaders should act out of conviction, not popularity, then I think it is clear Cameron does believe in the direction he has taken his party. If on the other hand you believe they should pander to the most votes, then Cameron has attracted a lot of centrist votes that the sort of policies kippers believe in would not have done.
His real crime, with many people here, is that he does not agree with them.
And there is a more than a little hypocrisy in complaining about Kippers being called fruitcakes, racists and loonies, whilst at the same insulting voters for other parties of being stupid, prejudiced, lefty loonies, paedophile supporters and many other terms
Cameron, a politician of conviction? Did you manage to keep a straight face whilst typing that?Secondly whilst one could say that the majors are arrogant to believe that they defectees are just protest voting, it is just as arrogant for the Kippers to believe that the Tories (say) should move to their position. If one believes that party leaders should act out of conviction, not popularity, then I think it is clear Cameron does believe in the direction he has taken his party. If on the other hand you believe they should pander to the most votes, then Cameron has attracted a lot of centrist votes that the sort of policies kippers believe in would not have done.
His real crime, with many people here, is that he does not agree with them.
And there is a more than a little hypocrisy in complaining about Kippers being called fruitcakes, racists and loonies, whilst at the same insulting voters for other parties of being stupid, prejudiced, lefty loonies, paedophile supporters and many other terms
Cameron may have attracted centrist votes, but at the expense of much of his core vote. Current polls have the Conservatives on ~31% of the vote. That's pretty much unchanged from the 1997 (30.7%) and 2001 (31.7%) GEs and down on the 2006 (32.4%) GE. Hardly a ringing endorsement given that he's now up against Miliband as opposed to Blair, and after 13 years of Labour, a collapsed economy and the worst PM in living memory he only managed 36% of the vote.
To suggest that Cameron's worst crime is that he doesn't agree with UKIP voters is severely underestimating the strength of feeling people have for him. Let's start with his utter disdain for those that don't share his metropolitan elitist views - from his own party activists (those "swivel eyed loons"), to the concerns of those that would vote UKIP (fruitcakes and closet racists). His continuation of Miliband's Climate Change Policy, despite it costing this country so very much, and achieving nothing to combat global CO2 levels. He's prepared to outright lie to gain power (eg immigration down to 10s of thousands, despite knowing full well that EU rules would prevent that). His tendency to use weasel words - refusing to pay the £1.7b EU bill (by 1st December), having "no plans" to raise VAT in 2010. His readiness to intervene militarily in other countries, despite lessons that should have been learnt from Afghanistan and Iraq, at the cost of how many lives? As "heir to" and friend of Blair, perhaps we shouldn't be surprised.
Peter Oborne said:
Last week the International Criminal Court sensationally announced a “preliminary examination” of allegations that British troops have committed war crimes.
The ICC only ever investigates allegations of crimes against humanity, war crimes, genocide. It only intervenes when a nation is unable or unwilling to investigate wrong-doing. This is the first time that any Western nation has been the object of this kind of ICC attention. Britain now finds itself in the company of such places as Afghanistan, the Central African Republic and Colombia.
David Cameron's friendship with Tony Blair is starting to do serious damageThe ICC only ever investigates allegations of crimes against humanity, war crimes, genocide. It only intervenes when a nation is unable or unwilling to investigate wrong-doing. This is the first time that any Western nation has been the object of this kind of ICC attention. Britain now finds itself in the company of such places as Afghanistan, the Central African Republic and Colombia.
Is this really the Britain we want? From ongoing election fraud that would make a 3rd rate banana republic blush to being investigated by the ICC. What a proud time for all of us.
jagnet said:
Cameron, a politician of conviction? Did you manage to keep a straight face whilst typing that?
How many times have people berated Cameron on here for (e.g.) keeping the foreign aid budget when it would be popular to drop it? Why do you think he hasn't?Like I say, one moment you whinge that he hasn't got convictions, the next for not doing something popular. Like I said, the problem is that his convictions are not yours.
And the Tories are actually polling at around 33-34% on average.
MGJohn said:
mrpurple said:
jogon said:
Axionknight said:
jagnet said:
Your frustration reflects my own. So Labour / SNP / Plaid / Greens are standing on a platform of keeping out the Torieeees. The Tories are standing on a platform of keeping out Labour whilst dismissing their best hope of defeating Labour in their heartlands as fruitcakes, loonies and closet racists (such political genius). Manifestos as usual appear to simply be a collection of bribes to certain target demographics.
Is it any wonder that so many people don't feel enthused to go out and vote and that the only party that really seems to be attracting previous non voters is UKIP. Yet the suggestion is that those UKIP voters should forego the opportunity to vote for a party that they feel best represents them and instead lend their vote to a party that has derided and insulted them for so long, and one so arrogant as to have believed that it was all just protest voting and that come the election UKIP voters would dutifully "return home".
Ding ding ding ding ding ding! We have a winner. Is it any wonder that so many people don't feel enthused to go out and vote and that the only party that really seems to be attracting previous non voters is UKIP. Yet the suggestion is that those UKIP voters should forego the opportunity to vote for a party that they feel best represents them and instead lend their vote to a party that has derided and insulted them for so long, and one so arrogant as to have believed that it was all just protest voting and that come the election UKIP voters would dutifully "return home".
Spot-on-ness... WinstonWolf said:
Stirling work TKF, you've certainly gone up in everyone's estimation.Or maybe not.
JustAnotherLogin said:
How many times have people berated Cameron on here for (e.g.) keeping the foreign aid budget when it would be popular to drop it? Why do you think he hasn't?
Like I say, one moment you whinge that he hasn't got convictions, the next for not doing something popular. Like I said, the problem is that his convictions are not yours.
And the Tories are actually polling at around 33-34% on average.
Because like Blair he's more interested in playing global statesman than doing what's right for this country. That's not conviction, that's ego. Like I say, one moment you whinge that he hasn't got convictions, the next for not doing something popular. Like I said, the problem is that his convictions are not yours.
And the Tories are actually polling at around 33-34% on average.
Just as he was so eager to intervene in Libya and Syria, just as he's so keen so see the UK at the forefront of the fight against Climate Change, just as he's so keen to see the EU expand to encompass Ukraine and Turkey and to hell with the consequences. History repeats.
jagnet said:
Because like Blair he's more interested in playing global statesman than doing what's right for this country. That's not conviction, that's ego.
Just as he was so eager to intervene in Libya and Syria, just as he's so keen so see the UK at the forefront of the fight against Climate Change, just as he's so keen to see the EU expand to encompass Ukraine and Turkey and to hell with the consequences. History repeats.
Nonsense. This govt has been much more inward looking in its foreign policy. Libya was an intervention that took place quickly because of the imminent massacre of Benghazi. Unlike Blair, Cameron respected the wishes of parliament. Not intervening in Syria has not worked out particularly well either given the scale of disaster there. Just as he was so eager to intervene in Libya and Syria, just as he's so keen so see the UK at the forefront of the fight against Climate Change, just as he's so keen to see the EU expand to encompass Ukraine and Turkey and to hell with the consequences. History repeats.
Anyhow, better get used to Miliband as he's likely to be the next PM now and UKIP will be even less relevant.
968 said:
Unlike Blair, Cameron respected the wishes of parliament.
What choice did he have. Had he ignored the wishes of parliament (and a large proportion of the populace) on that how tenable would his position have been? He must have known that as a minimum his leadership would've been challenged. 968 said:
Anyhow, better get used to Miliband as he's likely to be the next PM now and UKIP will be even less relevant.
How would a Miliband government make UKIP even less relevant? Miliband's refusal to offer a referendum on the EU is more likely to increase UKIP's relevance.jagnet said:
How would a Miliband government make UKIP even less relevant? Miliband's refusal to offer a referendum on the EU is more likely to increase UKIP's relevance.
What Cameron didn't do was lie to the public about wmds and then plunge us into two pointless and disastrous global wars which have made the world much more dangerous. The fact he didn't have a choice is irrelevant, he actually respected the rule of the people, not disregard it like Blair.UKIP will become irrelevant as they will win perhaps 4 seats and simply serve to split the Tory vote allowing Labour to win more marginal seats. Labour will not allow a referendum and once in govt will ensure that a referendum will be as difficult as possible to organise. Like the Tea party, UKIP simply highlight the divisions on the right of centre and will simply ensure we will be stuck with another labour govt for another 2 terms.
968 said:
jagnet said:
Because like Blair he's more interested in playing global statesman than doing what's right for this country. That's not conviction, that's ego.
Just as he was so eager to intervene in Libya and Syria, just as he's so keen so see the UK at the forefront of the fight against Climate Change, just as he's so keen to see the EU expand to encompass Ukraine and Turkey and to hell with the consequences. History repeats.
Nonsense. This govt has been much more inward looking in its foreign policy. Libya was an intervention that took place quickly because of the imminent massacre of Benghazi. Unlike Blair, Cameron respected the wishes of parliament. Not intervening in Syria has not worked out particularly well either given the scale of disaster there. Just as he was so eager to intervene in Libya and Syria, just as he's so keen so see the UK at the forefront of the fight against Climate Change, just as he's so keen to see the EU expand to encompass Ukraine and Turkey and to hell with the consequences. History repeats.
Anyhow, better get used to Miliband as he's likely to be the next PM now and UKIP will be even less relevant.
ask yourself this, what is more important to current generations of politicians these days?
Answer - their commercial value once they leave office.
The analogy with Blair is actually pretty accurate.
968 said:
What Cameron didn't do was lie to the public about wmds and then plunge us into two pointless and disastrous global wars which have made the world much more dangerous. The fact he didn't have a choice is irrelevant, he actually respected the rule of the people, not disregard it like Blair.
UKIP will become irrelevant as they will win perhaps 4 seats and simply serve to split the Tory vote allowing Labour to win more marginal seats. Labour will not allow a referendum and once in govt will ensure that a referendum will be as difficult as possible to organise. Like the Tea party, UKIP simply highlight the divisions on the right of centre and will simply ensure we will be stuck with another labour govt for another 2 terms.
If only people felt compelled to vote for the Tory party eh?UKIP will become irrelevant as they will win perhaps 4 seats and simply serve to split the Tory vote allowing Labour to win more marginal seats. Labour will not allow a referendum and once in govt will ensure that a referendum will be as difficult as possible to organise. Like the Tea party, UKIP simply highlight the divisions on the right of centre and will simply ensure we will be stuck with another labour govt for another 2 terms.
Scuffers said:
actually, its not nonsense.
ask yourself this, what is more important to current generations of politicians these days?
Answer - their commercial value once they leave office.
The analogy with Blair is actually pretty accurate.
It would be interesting to see how MP's personal wealth increase whilst in Parliament.ask yourself this, what is more important to current generations of politicians these days?
Answer - their commercial value once they leave office.
The analogy with Blair is actually pretty accurate.
An audit of MP's wealth over this 5 year term would be interesting.
968 said:
WinstonWolf said:
Stirling work TKF, you've certainly gone up in everyone's estimation.Or maybe not.
And the question remains unanswered, none of us know why having less tattoos matters to him...
WinstonWolf said:
968 said:
WinstonWolf said:
Stirling work TKF, you've certainly gone up in everyone's estimation.Or maybe not.
And the question remains unanswered, none of us know why having less tattoos matters to him...
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