RE: Aston Martin's Andy Palmer: PH Meets
Tuesday 24th March 2015
You've got to love any new car company boss who, when asked on a busy motor show stand how his new job is going, replies opens with "f***ing marvellous" and backs it with an enormous grin.
Bond's DB10 previews look for next-gen AstonsThe man in question being Andy Palmer, six months into heading up Aston Martin having left the relative security of a senior corporate role as Nissan's global product supremo and now in charge of one of the most iconic sports car brands in the business. Yet despite Palmer's good spirits - and the presence of no fewer than four cars and concepts on the company's stand at Geneva - these are tough times at Aston. Sales have stagnated at around 4,000 a year, well below the 7,000 peak enjoyed before the global financial crash, and although a deal has been struck to deliver some much needed development funds, and a technical partnership entered with Daimler, the next-generation models are still more than a year away.
Aston needs zero emissions DBXSaints and sinners
"One of the reasons for having an electric car [the DBX concept, which we'll get onto later] is to allow me to continue with the V12 for longer," he told us, "of course, we've got to make it emissions compliant - the current V12 has to be completely renewed. But yes, we will have a 12-cylinder engine in our future, our customers demand that."
DB9 first of the current range to be replacedFor the new cars, engine choice will be limited to eight-, twelve- or - if Palmer gets his way - no cylinders, with no plans to downsize any time soon, or even to offer hybrid systems. The green bit will effectively be done by the production electric model hinted at by the DBX concept.
Vulcan-style specials will keep coming"There's a lot of bulls**t around the whole platform nomenclature to be frank," he says, frankly, "technically there's zero carry-over between the existing platform and the new platform - well, a single part... The VH platform was ahead of its time, it's what everyone is now doing. It should have been described as modular architecture, like MQB or one of the other systems big manufacturers have adopted. We're always having to make excuses for it being an old platform, but if you compare the original to today's there's been an enormous transformation, and it's a great way to build cars in the volumes we do. We just haven't told that story well."
Palmer stands by need for DBX (geddit?)Which is also a broad hint in there that Aston will move to standardise its non-manual transmission option as a twin-clutcher instead of the current split between an automated single clutch on the Vantage and a torque converter 'box on the DB9 and Vanquish.
V12s, V8s and manuals here to stay"When you think of the alternatives to a V8 or V12 I figured that the best alternative was the other extreme, silence," Palmer said, "you get a different kind of visceral experience when you do that, especially with the torque and response of an electric powertrain. We could have downsized, but I'd far rather keep the V12s and V8s for longer and at the other end basically offset to zero emissions with the electric powertrain."
Aston Martin's Andy Palmer: PH Meets
Aston's boss on new models, continued V12s and why we should never say 'VH architecture' again
Bond's DB10 previews look for next-gen Astons
Let's start with that. Palmer is refreshingly willing to discuss the company's future model strategy, confirming that we'll see the replacement for the DB9 first - arriving in around 18 months time. This will, you won't be surprised to hear, share much of its design with the DB10 that's been created for 007's next romp. And it will also stick with V12 power, with Palmer confirming he's signed off on the development of a motor capable of passing increasingly strict emissions standards on both sides of the Atlantic.
Aston needs zero emissions DBX
"One of the reasons for having an electric car [the DBX concept, which we'll get onto later] is to allow me to continue with the V12 for longer," he told us, "of course, we've got to make it emissions compliant - the current V12 has to be completely renewed. But yes, we will have a 12-cylinder engine in our future, our customers demand that."
And it's necessary too. The only engine included in the technical partnership with Daimler is AMG's new twin-turbocharged V8, so to continue with the dozen-pot is a major ongoing commitment. And ensuring it can deliver more performance than the blown V8 will be a major challenge too, especially as we believe it will be sticking with natural aspiration.
The first V8 engined car will be the replacement for the Vantage, which will follow about six months behind the new DB9, with the Vanquish some way beyond that. To fill the gap before then Aston will continue to produce far more limited run 'specials', with Palmer aiming for at least two a year (an idea apparently vindicated by the popularity of the track-only Vulcan.)
DB9 first of the current range to be replaced
"There's an inevitability to having a hybrid because the car itself has to meet the standards as well as the total fleet... eventually that will mean some kind of hybridisation," he said, "there's an inevitability to downsizing too on the same timescale, and although I'd say a six-cylinder engine is possible - Aston has done them before - I'm not planning anything smaller than a V8."
"A lot of bulls**t"
The new cars will continue to be constructed using Aston's familiar combination of bonded and cast aluminium - or what we've previously always known as 'VH' architecture. Mentioning this by name sees Palmer lose his smile for the only time during the whole interview.
Vulcan-style specials will keep coming
More good news - the manual gearbox is also safe on Palmer's watch, he even admits that he would love Aston to be the last sports car maker to be offering three pedals and a do-it-yourself shifter, reckoning it will be no problem to mate this to the Daimler V8 (despite the obvious fact AMG doesn't offer it on the C63 or GT). "Even as the industry moves to twin-clutch transmissions, at the heart of each of those you still have a manual transmission. It's only a matter of breaking it into parts. And that's where I started my career of course, as a transmission engineer."
Palmer stands by need for DBX (geddit?)
Shared strength
The other side of the deal with Daimler - to share electronic architecture - will provide just as much value to Aston as the V8 engine will, allowing the company to incorporate active safety features (and even - further forwards - even autonomous control) without incurring the massive costs of having to develop their own systems. And yes, we're promised the dreadfully dated sat nav systems of the current cars will be replaced by something far more modern on the next generation.
Bringing us back to the DBX - that electric 'crossover' concept that looked like a Vantage been cross-bred with a compact SUV. Yes, it's serious, and yes, if it does make production, it will be with an electric-only powertrain. This helps to offset the CO2 emissions of the rest of the range (the same argument once made for the completely unmourned Cygnet), but it's also designed to bring some new blood to the brand.
V12s, V8s and manuals here to stay
Of course, whether you think Aston should be producing an electron-fuelled almost-SUV is another matter, but Palmer is adamant the company needs a model that will appeal to both developing markets and to buyers away from Aston's current demographic.
"In 102 years of history we've only sold 70,000 cars," he states, bluntly. "Of those, 3,500 went to women and 2,000 went into the BRICS countries [Brazil, Russia, India, China and South Africa]. So think about the opportunity going forward if you make a car that's approachable by women and the BRICS - with China the obvious proxy for that. You can imagine the opportunity we have."
Discussion
Very interesting interview and seems like he's got some great (for petrolheads) ideas.
I don't quite get why you'd make the DBX entirely electric though, rather than a hybrid. I would think that the experience of doing it as a hybrid would be useful for the future when the rest of the range starts to go that way, and the hybrid market is much bigger than the electric only market at this point.
I don't quite get why you'd make the DBX entirely electric though, rather than a hybrid. I would think that the experience of doing it as a hybrid would be useful for the future when the rest of the range starts to go that way, and the hybrid market is much bigger than the electric only market at this point.
This sounds very encouraging. Bespoke engines, continuing the V12, manual 'boxes. Fantastic, and it is what Aston Martin deserves.
It's also in stark contrast to what was reported by Autocar today, which said about the DB9 replacement: "The new DB9 will be built around an all-new bonded aluminium platform and is set to be powered by a new twin-turbocharged 4.0-litre V8 engine designed and built by Mercedes-AMG. AMG will not provide a bespoke version for Aston. Instead, off-the-shelf engines will be modified to sound, respond and feel like an Aston Martin engine. Spy photographers have reported a particularly loud sound coming from this early test mule. Modifications would extend to bespoke engine management and exhaust systems and possibly revised turbo boost pressures but no internal mechanical changes." I added the italics.
This is what I'm afraid of, and it would be disgraceful -- off-the-shelf someone-else's engine in an Aston. From Andy's interview, it sounds like this won't happen to the next-gen DB9. Hopefully Autocar is simply wrong. But I hope it doesn't happen to the next-gen Vantage either -- it wouldn't be an Aston. That V8 needs to be unique in many more ways than just electronics and exhaust -- making it merely "sound, respond and feel like" and Aston engine doesn't make it one. That's fakery of the worst kind. I won't buy an Aston with someone else's off-the-shelf engine dropped in. Period.
About the DBX, please Andy, if you do a crossover-like thing, make it a Lagonda. Leave Aston Martins to being sports cars/GTs, including very sporting 4-doors like the Rapide (which would have made a fantastic Lagonda).
It's also in stark contrast to what was reported by Autocar today, which said about the DB9 replacement: "The new DB9 will be built around an all-new bonded aluminium platform and is set to be powered by a new twin-turbocharged 4.0-litre V8 engine designed and built by Mercedes-AMG. AMG will not provide a bespoke version for Aston. Instead, off-the-shelf engines will be modified to sound, respond and feel like an Aston Martin engine. Spy photographers have reported a particularly loud sound coming from this early test mule. Modifications would extend to bespoke engine management and exhaust systems and possibly revised turbo boost pressures but no internal mechanical changes." I added the italics.
This is what I'm afraid of, and it would be disgraceful -- off-the-shelf someone-else's engine in an Aston. From Andy's interview, it sounds like this won't happen to the next-gen DB9. Hopefully Autocar is simply wrong. But I hope it doesn't happen to the next-gen Vantage either -- it wouldn't be an Aston. That V8 needs to be unique in many more ways than just electronics and exhaust -- making it merely "sound, respond and feel like" and Aston engine doesn't make it one. That's fakery of the worst kind. I won't buy an Aston with someone else's off-the-shelf engine dropped in. Period.
About the DBX, please Andy, if you do a crossover-like thing, make it a Lagonda. Leave Aston Martins to being sports cars/GTs, including very sporting 4-doors like the Rapide (which would have made a fantastic Lagonda).
hufggfg said:
Very interesting interview and seems like he's got some great (for petrolheads) ideas.
I don't quite get why you'd make the DBX entirely electric though, rather than a hybrid. I would think that the experience of doing it as a hybrid would be useful for the future when the rest of the range starts to go that way, and the hybrid market is much bigger than the electric only market at this point.
I believe you're right. The DBX crossover should be a hybrid (and not a full-on battery EV). I don't quite get why you'd make the DBX entirely electric though, rather than a hybrid. I would think that the experience of doing it as a hybrid would be useful for the future when the rest of the range starts to go that way, and the hybrid market is much bigger than the electric only market at this point.
This is not only about the future of powertrains within the Aston-Martin range, but also about the utility of the DBX, itself. Who wants to drive around the BRIC countries with a mounting sense of range anxiety?
The counter-argument to our shared point of view is that, perhaps, only a full-on EV can deliver the fleet sums required to counterbalance petrol emissions of the Aston-Martin range.
unsprung said:
hufggfg said:
Very interesting interview and seems like he's got some great (for petrolheads) ideas.
I don't quite get why you'd make the DBX entirely electric though, rather than a hybrid. I would think that the experience of doing it as a hybrid would be useful for the future when the rest of the range starts to go that way, and the hybrid market is much bigger than the electric only market at this point.
I believe you're right. The DBX crossover should be a hybrid (and not a full-on battery EV). I don't quite get why you'd make the DBX entirely electric though, rather than a hybrid. I would think that the experience of doing it as a hybrid would be useful for the future when the rest of the range starts to go that way, and the hybrid market is much bigger than the electric only market at this point.
This is not only about the future of powertrains within the Aston-Martin range, but also about the utility of the DBX, itself. Who wants to drive around the BRIC countries with a mounting sense of range anxiety?
The counter-argument to our shared point of view is that, perhaps, only a full-on EV can deliver the fleet sums required to counterbalance petrol emissions of the Aston-Martin range.
Speedraser said:
It's also in stark contrast to what was reported by Autocar today, which said about the DB9 replacement: "The new DB9 will be built around an all-new bonded aluminium platform and is set to be powered by a new twin-turbocharged 4.0-litre V8 engine designed and built by Mercedes-AMG. AMG will not provide a bespoke version for Aston. Instead, off-the-shelf engines will be modified to sound, respond and feel like an Aston Martin engine. Spy photographers have reported a particularly loud sound coming from this early test mule. Modifications would extend to bespoke engine management and exhaust systems and possibly revised turbo boost pressures but no internal mechanical changes." I added the italics.
This is what I'm afraid of, and it would be disgraceful -- off-the-shelf someone-else's engine in an Aston. From Andy's interview, it sounds like this won't happen to the next-gen DB9. Hopefully Autocar is simply wrong. But I hope it doesn't happen to the next-gen Vantage either -- it wouldn't be an Aston. That V8 needs to be unique in many more ways than just electronics and exhaust -- making it merely "sound, respond and feel like" and Aston engine doesn't make it one. That's fakery of the worst kind. I won't buy an Aston with someone else's off-the-shelf engine dropped in. Period.
Just for some balance, I can't wait until Aston have an MB engine in them and hopefully I will be buying one. If it does indeed sound, feel and respond like an Aston engine then happy days. It's not as if current Aston engines are super in house or British either, based on a Jag engine and built in Cologne This is what I'm afraid of, and it would be disgraceful -- off-the-shelf someone-else's engine in an Aston. From Andy's interview, it sounds like this won't happen to the next-gen DB9. Hopefully Autocar is simply wrong. But I hope it doesn't happen to the next-gen Vantage either -- it wouldn't be an Aston. That V8 needs to be unique in many more ways than just electronics and exhaust -- making it merely "sound, respond and feel like" and Aston engine doesn't make it one. That's fakery of the worst kind. I won't buy an Aston with someone else's off-the-shelf engine dropped in. Period.
Some interesting points, but mostly CEO waffle of course:
1) "VH" architecture. Who cares what it's called. Call it "VH" call it "MBQ" call it "B&Q" for all that it matters. The fact is, aston build all their cars on one platform, because all their cars are front engined, V configuration, with a rwd transaxle. Hence why would you need to keep redesigning and replacing the platform? If they do a fwd, transverse engined model, then yes, they'll need a new platform. But they aren't going to, so just stick with the VH eh!
2) All electric SUV. Dangerous ground. If you sit down for more than 5 mins and do the calcs, the battery and propulsion system power and total energy requirement for a large, heavy 7 draggy SUV with "Aston Martin" performance (lets say sub 6 sec to 60, and 150mph flat chat as a minimum) is EXTREMELY onerous. A hybrid would actually be easier.
1) "VH" architecture. Who cares what it's called. Call it "VH" call it "MBQ" call it "B&Q" for all that it matters. The fact is, aston build all their cars on one platform, because all their cars are front engined, V configuration, with a rwd transaxle. Hence why would you need to keep redesigning and replacing the platform? If they do a fwd, transverse engined model, then yes, they'll need a new platform. But they aren't going to, so just stick with the VH eh!
2) All electric SUV. Dangerous ground. If you sit down for more than 5 mins and do the calcs, the battery and propulsion system power and total energy requirement for a large, heavy 7 draggy SUV with "Aston Martin" performance (lets say sub 6 sec to 60, and 150mph flat chat as a minimum) is EXTREMELY onerous. A hybrid would actually be easier.
leglessAlex said:
Just for some balance, I can't wait until Aston have an MB engine in them and hopefully I will be buying one. If it does indeed sound, feel and respond like an Aston engine then happy days. It's not as if current Aston engines are super in house or British either, based on a Jag engine and built in Cologne
ExactlyIf Aston stick the 4.7 TT V8 from my SL500 into a Vantage, I'll give them my money.
Simples.
article said: "...he would love Aston to be the last sports car maker to be offering three pedals and a do-it-yourself shifter, reckoning it will be no problem to mate this to the Daimler V8 (despite the obvious fact AMG doesn't offer it on the C63 or GT)."
Is the author serious? Is it really difficult to fit a manual 'box to an engine that is usually mated an auto 'box?
If AMG thought it worth it for them, then I'm sure they would offer it.
Interesting article though. Mr. Palmer sound sounds like a character. I wish him and Aston Martin luck.
As for using an engine from another manufacturer. I think it's a shame, but if that's what the economics dictate, then so be it. The cars will still probably look better than anything MB can offer*, and will to me be much more desirable, despite the MB heart.
Is the author serious? Is it really difficult to fit a manual 'box to an engine that is usually mated an auto 'box?
If AMG thought it worth it for them, then I'm sure they would offer it.
Interesting article though. Mr. Palmer sound sounds like a character. I wish him and Aston Martin luck.
As for using an engine from another manufacturer. I think it's a shame, but if that's what the economics dictate, then so be it. The cars will still probably look better than anything MB can offer*, and will to me be much more desirable, despite the MB heart.
- At least if history is anything to go by.
dandare said:
article said: "...he would love Aston to be the last sports car maker to be offering three pedals and a do-it-yourself shifter, reckoning it will be no problem to mate this to the Daimler V8 (despite the obvious fact AMG doesn't offer it on the C63 or GT)."
Is the author serious? Is it really difficult to fit a manual 'box to an engine that is usually mated an auto 'box?
If AMG thought it worth it for them, then I'm sure they would offer it.
Interesting article though. Mr. Palmer sound sounds like a character. I wish him and Aston Martin luck.
As for using an engine from another manufacturer. I think it's a shame, but if that's what the economics dictate, then so be it. The cars will still probably look better than anything MB can offer*, and will to me be much more desirable, despite the MB heart.
"Is it really difficult to fit a manual 'box to an engine that is usually mated an auto 'box?"Is the author serious? Is it really difficult to fit a manual 'box to an engine that is usually mated an auto 'box?
If AMG thought it worth it for them, then I'm sure they would offer it.
Interesting article though. Mr. Palmer sound sounds like a character. I wish him and Aston Martin luck.
As for using an engine from another manufacturer. I think it's a shame, but if that's what the economics dictate, then so be it. The cars will still probably look better than anything MB can offer*, and will to me be much more desirable, despite the MB heart.
- At least if history is anything to go by.
Is it a difficult piece of engineering in terms of removing the paddleshift mechanism and replacing with a gear shift and a clutch pedal. No.
BUT...
Look at the way that modern emissions are calculated and you see why an automatic gearbox is essential. I had a 911 (997.2) turbo with PDK. In full automatic mode it would be in 7th gear at 32mph. That's for emissions and fuel economy testing reasons. When driven in manual I would be in 2nd gear in road driving normally.
Never mind the fact that the emissions figures and fuel economy figures are all nonsense and have very little relationship with the real world. It just allows politicians to "do something" and the motor industry to pay lip service.
And (legislation) is why it's hard to replace an automated manual (with a plate clutch or twin clutches) with a three pedal and gear stick arrangement.
The lazy journalists who refer to the VH platform as venerable are simply naïve, ill informed and have no true understanding of the reality. The bonded and riveted aluminium platform was innovative when AML launched it and the rest of the industry has caught up. British engineering was ahead of the Germans and Italians and yet we (British) knock ourselves and criticise one of our leading brands.
Never mind who owns AML now - I know.
But lazy journalists get better lunches from Porsche and others and trot out their nonsense.
A further example - the AML V12. Built in Cologne, yes. And AML get criticised for that. But who designed it and used a revolutionary CosCast technique on the initial production runs?
Did Porsche get the same level of criticism when it built the Boxster near the Artic Circle?
I own an Aston Martin and I have bought the brand before. I am unlikely to buy again and I am not blind to the failings of the firm. The management by Ulrich Bez was a disaster for the firm as he pursued his vision but failed to execute.
Palmer is right about sales to BRICS - but look at those markets. Import taxes, poor roads, culture of having a driver rather than driving. Re-engineer Rapide to have a lot more rear leg room and offer a LWB variant - the Chinese would love a V12 powered monster barge like that. Look at the Mercedes Maybach S600 for inspiration.
Good luck to Andy Palmer and the rest of the folks in Gaydon.
Oh - and Andy, if you read this, I hope you'll reply to my email I sent a while back in response to your mail to the AML client list.
Personally, I think he is headed in exactly the right direction.
I like V8s and V12s, but I also love the Fiat 500e we have for scooting around town. I would rather have a big petrol motor or no petrol motor.
And huge props for keeping manuals around. Keeping them around will will lead to greater collectibility, which is very good for a brand like Aston.
I like V8s and V12s, but I also love the Fiat 500e we have for scooting around town. I would rather have a big petrol motor or no petrol motor.
And huge props for keeping manuals around. Keeping them around will will lead to greater collectibility, which is very good for a brand like Aston.
articulatedj said:
JohnG1 said:
Re-engineer Rapide to have a lot more rear leg room and offer a LWB variant - the Chinese would love a V12 powered monster barge like that. Look at the Mercedes Maybach S600 for inspiration.
Maybe something like this?
It was stated over on the Aston Martin forum here last year that AML had 6.2 twin turbo version of their V12 running. Maybe put that into an LWB Lagonda and get some "top trumps" for most torque in a production four seater car - in reasonably low boost you should be able to get >1000nm of torque. Might be hard to uprate the transmission to handle it...
It's hardly surprising that sales are lower than a few years ago - Vantage, DB9 and Rapide are all heading towards the end of their lifecycles. A dropoff in sales is pretty normal at this stage.
I'm quite impressed with Palmer's approach so far. He seems extremely keen to preserve the brand, which is the key to me. With Porsche making diesel SUVs and BMW doing a front-wheel-drive MPV, there's a huge amount of value in staying true to what made a brand great in the first place. Another interview I read asked Palmer whether we'd see a small saloon to drive volume: "Never on my watch" was the answer.
I'm quite impressed with Palmer's approach so far. He seems extremely keen to preserve the brand, which is the key to me. With Porsche making diesel SUVs and BMW doing a front-wheel-drive MPV, there's a huge amount of value in staying true to what made a brand great in the first place. Another interview I read asked Palmer whether we'd see a small saloon to drive volume: "Never on my watch" was the answer.
Interesting times ahead. I can't help but think that a V12-derived straight six in the small Vantage body could be a true spiritual successor to the David Brown era cars as well as providing a useful rival to the F-type, Cayman, SL350 and suchlike. A.M. has a track record with sixes, so why not. Great to hear the manual gearbox is here to stay too.
RoverP6B said:
Interesting times ahead. I can't help but think that a V12-derived straight six in the small Vantage body could be a true spiritual successor to the David Brown era cars as well as providing a useful rival to the F-type, Cayman, SL350 and suchlike. A.M. has a track record with sixes, so why not. Great to hear the manual gearbox is here to stay too.
So two the Duratec V6s they combined to form a V12 would now be split lengthwise to form a straight six?I have a feeling they would be better off starting over. Better yet, they could plead with Merc to provide access to their new quad turbo straight six.
JohnG1 said:
The Rapide is a long car but the rear leg room is poor - the packaging is not good - it feels rather like that Mazda sportscar with the suicide doors - it's a faff to get in the back if you are around 6ft tall. I have not seen a Taraf in the metal but I am not sure it's big enough in the rear compartment. It's certainly visually striking.
It was stated over on the Aston Martin forum here last year that AML had 6.2 twin turbo version of their V12 running. Maybe put that into an LWB Lagonda and get some "top trumps" for most torque in a production four seater car - in reasonably low boost you should be able to get >1000nm of torque. Might be hard to uprate the transmission to handle it...
I agree on the Rapide, but my impression was that the Lagonda was extended to allow for a proper backseat.It was stated over on the Aston Martin forum here last year that AML had 6.2 twin turbo version of their V12 running. Maybe put that into an LWB Lagonda and get some "top trumps" for most torque in a production four seater car - in reasonably low boost you should be able to get >1000nm of torque. Might be hard to uprate the transmission to handle it...
I do wonder why people being chauffeured care in the least about extreme horsepower (500+). I agree that there is a game of top trumps, but it's dumb. How fast do people really want their chauffeurs to drive them around? At least when someone buys a Veyron or similar, they are likely to use power on occasion.
I know, I know, it's just a wealth signifier...
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