App based lap timer
Discussion
I don't think that's correct, I certainly hope it isn't and the offending parties are banned from the tracks.
I personally want to be able to continue to do trackdays, and other people ignoring the "rules of the game" are going to ruin it for everyone.
Vbox is a slightly different matter. I'm sure it's a grey area, but as long as you're not using the dash display, and obviously just trying to chase laptimes then the TDO will probably be fine with it (in the same way they are fine with you videoing, from which you could of course work out the lap time).
The point here is that trackdays are not about trying to chase laptimes. If you want to do that please go get your race licence and go on test days (I have done exactly this this year).
I personally want to be able to continue to do trackdays, and other people ignoring the "rules of the game" are going to ruin it for everyone.
Vbox is a slightly different matter. I'm sure it's a grey area, but as long as you're not using the dash display, and obviously just trying to chase laptimes then the TDO will probably be fine with it (in the same way they are fine with you videoing, from which you could of course work out the lap time).
The point here is that trackdays are not about trying to chase laptimes. If you want to do that please go get your race licence and go on test days (I have done exactly this this year).
mmm-five said:
Is the OP not asking how to connect the app on an iPhone in the car with an iPad on the pit wall so that the iPad gets live data?
Not sure the bluetooth/wifi range of the phone will suffice.
Bluetooth is definitely not going to work as it will require an action to negotiate when/if in range on the start finish, plus its range is VERY limited, not to mention by the time one has selected a device to negotiate with the moving object will be out of range already lol.Not sure the bluetooth/wifi range of the phone will suffice.
Similarly with WiFi, it will not give enough range to maintain a connection during a whole lap, which then goes back to time to negotiate with an AP, despite roaming etc. most devices require a finite amount of time and with a moving vehicle on track that time just isn't available.
If the OP was indeed asking the question of whether it can be done, it can but at quite a cost and will require a PtP connection by way of something like a COFDM radio link which may be able to maintain a connection throughout a whole lap, but for that kind of cost one can buy a ready to roll serious track weapon, so again out of the question imo unless you won the lottery :P
Humour
P.S. Out of interest, why is it NOT ALLOWED to time laps? Is it a case of taking driver concentration away from the task at hand? If so, what if the timer is running silently without a live view to distract a driver but the results are logged for reviewing when in the pits?
WiFi cameras have been used to send a live feed of part of the lap back to the pits. You can use a cheap domestic wireless router with an external omnidirectional antenna to extend the range.
BUT as stated you should not be doing any live timing on a track day due to the terms of the TDO's insurance.
BUT as stated you should not be doing any live timing on a track day due to the terms of the TDO's insurance.
Humour said:
P.S. Out of interest, why is it NOT ALLOWED to time laps? Is it a case of taking driver concentration away from the task at hand? If so, what if the timer is running silently without a live view to distract a driver but the results are logged for reviewing when in the pits?
As stated, the most simplistic reason is that it is specifically stated within the insurance policy for the Track Day Organiser.I'm certainly no expert on insurance, but I can entirely understand that stipulation from the insurance companies. You have a huge range of abilities and cars on a track day, if you have someone out there trying to chase a lap time lower and lower then that clearly massively increases the risk of accidents, particularly as there is absolutely no minimum ability/qualification (other than having a driving licence). Over the years I've seen some absolutely shocking driving on track days, and the stuff that is most concerning to me is someone who clearly thinks they're pretty handy (but their actual ability doesn't stack up), and I'm sure these are the types of guys would be timing themselves if they could!
One other thing to consider is that if you were allowed to time, you would suddenly have a LOT more race teams turning up, and that would very much change the nature of track days.
If you want to get competitive and chase lap times then the correct place to do that is a test day. Everyone on a test day has a race licence and so has a minimum level of ability, and understands the safe way of going about things.
This year I will be doing both track days (in my track car), and test days (in a race car), and I seriously hope there won't be people (of entirely unknown ability) trying to chase lap times on the track days. Track days are for fun, not competition (even just with yourself).
hufggfg said:
As stated, the most simplistic reason is that it is specifically stated within the insurance policy for the Track Day Organiser.
I'm certainly no expert on insurance, but I can entirely understand that stipulation from the insurance companies. You have a huge range of abilities and cars on a track day, if you have someone out there trying to chase a lap time lower and lower then that clearly massively increases the risk of accidents, particularly as there is absolutely no minimum ability/qualification (other than having a driving licence). Over the years I've seen some absolutely shocking driving on track days, and the stuff that is most concerning to me is someone who clearly thinks they're pretty handy (but their actual ability doesn't stack up), and I'm sure these are the types of guys would be timing themselves if they could!
One other thing to consider is that if you were allowed to time, you would suddenly have a LOT more race teams turning up, and that would very much change the nature of track days.
If you want to get competitive and chase lap times then the correct place to do that is a test day. Everyone on a test day has a race licence and so has a minimum level of ability, and understands the safe way of going about things.
This year I will be doing both track days (in my track car), and test days (in a race car), and I seriously hope there won't be people (of entirely unknown ability) trying to chase lap times on the track days. Track days are for fun, not competition (even just with yourself).
Thanks for the explanation. Valid points, fairly made.I'm certainly no expert on insurance, but I can entirely understand that stipulation from the insurance companies. You have a huge range of abilities and cars on a track day, if you have someone out there trying to chase a lap time lower and lower then that clearly massively increases the risk of accidents, particularly as there is absolutely no minimum ability/qualification (other than having a driving licence). Over the years I've seen some absolutely shocking driving on track days, and the stuff that is most concerning to me is someone who clearly thinks they're pretty handy (but their actual ability doesn't stack up), and I'm sure these are the types of guys would be timing themselves if they could!
One other thing to consider is that if you were allowed to time, you would suddenly have a LOT more race teams turning up, and that would very much change the nature of track days.
If you want to get competitive and chase lap times then the correct place to do that is a test day. Everyone on a test day has a race licence and so has a minimum level of ability, and understands the safe way of going about things.
This year I will be doing both track days (in my track car), and test days (in a race car), and I seriously hope there won't be people (of entirely unknown ability) trying to chase lap times on the track days. Track days are for fun, not competition (even just with yourself).
I certainly can distinguish between the track and race/test environments, but as you say allot of people cannot as the former has almost no prerequisites, so any tom dick and harry can turn up on the day.
In principle however, one can achieve an equal or better speed around a whole lap in either environment if free track ahead is available without breaking the rules. I appreciate however that on a track day that cannot be guaranteed given the third party awareness and concessions which apply.
I'm curious because on a personal level, whilst not chasing lap times, tenths, etc. I would like a means of measure (conditions permitting of course) following car changes/development and I don't believe that feel alone is an accurate enough measure to provide feedback on progress on that front.
It seems to me from the feedback here and other threads that some people view the matter as black and white and others more as a grey area. Personally I'm on the fence. I feel that common sense should prevail in such cases and that people should drive to conditions, sadly this is rather lacking on the main these days.
No argument on the fit for purpose advice, however not everyone can afford the increase in cost/budget to do more serious work. I think if cost wasn't an issue, we wouldn't be having this discussion and everyone wanting to push the limit will be doing test days instead
Humour
Edited by Humour on Friday 27th March 19:36
Road car only = joe public in a car they drove to the track
General car track day = everything, including race cars
I went on a general car track day a couple of weeks ago. Pits full of race teams, there to bed their cars down ready for the first race of the season. They were all perfectly behaved, respecting track day rules and ettiquette. They drove fast, but never aggressively, and I find it quite fun having mirrors full of Radical.
The only tossers were actually one or two of the track day virgins, in their brand new company M BMWs/ RS Audis. Attended the briefing with their memories on idle, then drove like it. Straight out of the pits and straight over to the racing line for the first right hand corner, totally oblivious of the cars approaching the same corner at 120-130 mph who were expecting them to stay right and watch their mirrors. Then drove lap after lap without using their mirrors and using their 400 bhp to stay in front on the straights.
I fully imagine they were using the lap timer on their satnav........which explains their total reluctance to move over and let the cars that were much faster on the corners past.
Lap timing distorts track day driving and makes it more dangerous IMHO
General car track day = everything, including race cars
I went on a general car track day a couple of weeks ago. Pits full of race teams, there to bed their cars down ready for the first race of the season. They were all perfectly behaved, respecting track day rules and ettiquette. They drove fast, but never aggressively, and I find it quite fun having mirrors full of Radical.
The only tossers were actually one or two of the track day virgins, in their brand new company M BMWs/ RS Audis. Attended the briefing with their memories on idle, then drove like it. Straight out of the pits and straight over to the racing line for the first right hand corner, totally oblivious of the cars approaching the same corner at 120-130 mph who were expecting them to stay right and watch their mirrors. Then drove lap after lap without using their mirrors and using their 400 bhp to stay in front on the straights.
I fully imagine they were using the lap timer on their satnav........which explains their total reluctance to move over and let the cars that were much faster on the corners past.
Lap timing distorts track day driving and makes it more dangerous IMHO
Humour said:
It seems to me from the feedback here and other threads that some people view the matter as black and white and others more as a grey area. Personally I'm on the fence. I feel that common sense should prevail in such cases and that people should drive to conditions, sadly this is rather lacking on the main these days.
No argument on the fit for purpose advice, however not everyone can afford the increase in cost/budget to do more serious work. I think if cost wasn't an issue, we wouldn't be having this discussion and everyone wanting to push the limit will be doing test days instead
Completely agree with you, and I personally think it is a grey area. Having a logger and looking at times when you get home, probably ok, going to the track day for the purpose of trying to get your lap as quick as possible and checking it after each session, not ok.No argument on the fit for purpose advice, however not everyone can afford the increase in cost/budget to do more serious work. I think if cost wasn't an issue, we wouldn't be having this discussion and everyone wanting to push the limit will be doing test days instead
I probably came across a bit strongly initially because the whole question related to real time monitoring of lap times, and the first few responses were "well everyone else is doing it" which is clearly a ridiculous defence.
To be honest, when you're at the point that you need times to compare the minor detail changes you're making on set-up (as it sounds like you are) then the right environment for you is a test day, or maybe something like sprinting? Where the costs can be lower even than track days (though I admit I've never fancied it myself due to the super short runs).
Of course, it is unfortunate that test days come with an increased cost of qualifications and car safety (though it really doesn't have to be too expensive), but I really dislike the argument that the high cost of "doing something properly" justifies doing something else the wrong way. If you can't afford to go dear hunting in Scotland does it make it ok to go around shooting the local fauna (or maybe the neighbourhood dogs)? Of course not. Ok, I'm being a bit ridiculous here, but the point still stands. If you don't want to (or can't) pay the increased cost of a test day, that doesn't give you the right to try to use a track day as one.
Edited by hufggfg on Saturday 28th March 08:01
For Android, Race Chrono and a 10 hz GPS sensor.
Automatically turns on and off when you start laps, no need to look at it or touch it till the end of the day. If you don't want too.
If they don't want timing then they need to ban filming too. Anyway, it's completely impossible to police.
Automatically turns on and off when you start laps, no need to look at it or touch it till the end of the day. If you don't want too.
If they don't want timing then they need to ban filming too. Anyway, it's completely impossible to police.
hufggfg said:
To be honest, when you're at the point that you need times to compare the minor detail changes you're making on set-up (as it sounds like you are) then the right environment for you is a test day, or maybe something like sprinting? Where the costs can be lower even than track days (though I admit I've never fancied it myself due to the super short runs).
Of course, it is unfortunate that test days come with an increased cost of qualifications and car safety (though it really doesn't have to be too expensive), but I really dislike the argument that the high cost of "doing something properly" justifies doing something else the wrong way. If you can't afford to go dear hunting in Scotland does it make it ok to go around shooting the local fauna (or maybe the neighbourhood dogs)? Of course not. Ok, I'm being a bit ridiculous here, but the point still stands. If you don't want to (or can't) pay the increased cost of a test day, that doesn't give you the right to try to use a track day as one.
I understand your views and I agree with you in principle. I wasn't trying to argue or justify any means. I simply stated my opinion that applies in many walks of life which always comes down to finances when breaking the rules are concerned, not just relating to this subject. Whether right or wrong, people will do things to avoid cost be it tax avoidance as an individual or a business, or the subject matter in question. My statement was simply trying to highlight that money and finances drives behaviours for better or worse, it's human nature and it will happen regardless.Of course, it is unfortunate that test days come with an increased cost of qualifications and car safety (though it really doesn't have to be too expensive), but I really dislike the argument that the high cost of "doing something properly" justifies doing something else the wrong way. If you can't afford to go dear hunting in Scotland does it make it ok to go around shooting the local fauna (or maybe the neighbourhood dogs)? Of course not. Ok, I'm being a bit ridiculous here, but the point still stands. If you don't want to (or can't) pay the increased cost of a test day, that doesn't give you the right to try to use a track day as one.
In our case, we are very far from minor adjustments, it's more like major overhaul changes followed by shakedowns.
@QBee, what you describe is annoying, dangerous and describes a total lack of courtesy. Those are the same types of individuals who blow my top off on the road as they show the same lack of courtesy on the road. Clear indication of bad drivers with not enough compute power in the head to multitask lol. It really isn't that difficult to look in the mirror and make decisions whilst concentrating on what's going on ahead at the same time.
Humour
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