Discussion
My understanding is an S-61 is an S-61 and not a sea king although obviously based on the same design. But I'm happy to be corrected. My understanding is that it's a sea king H3 in a military variant and then various marks spawned from that.
As for sea kings they were also using a licenced version of the General Electric T58 engine whic in the UK was manufactured by Rolls Royce as the Gnome. So not much difference I suspect shipping costs and lead times were the main contributor.
The sea king Mk.41 was the export aircraft. Agusta and Mitsubishi also produced variants.
As for sea kings they were also using a licenced version of the General Electric T58 engine whic in the UK was manufactured by Rolls Royce as the Gnome. So not much difference I suspect shipping costs and lead times were the main contributor.
The sea king Mk.41 was the export aircraft. Agusta and Mitsubishi also produced variants.
Was also watching this programme, and was wondering what was going to replace the Sea King & how do it's capabilities compare.
Also is privatising the Air Sea rescue really a great idea ?
I cant see the service being so good if they have to make a profit at the end of each year, and will the pilots be as prepared to put themselves at risk as maybe a serving military pilot might ?
Also is privatising the Air Sea rescue really a great idea ?
I cant see the service being so good if they have to make a profit at the end of each year, and will the pilots be as prepared to put themselves at risk as maybe a serving military pilot might ?
SBQuattro said:
Was also watching this programme, and was wondering what was going to replace the Sea King & how do it's capabilities compare.
Also is privatising the Air Sea rescue really a great idea ?
I cant see the service being so good if they have to make a profit at the end of each year, and will the pilots be as prepared to put themselves at risk as maybe a serving military pilot might ?
Navy ASW - Merlin HM2 (upgrade from HM1)Also is privatising the Air Sea rescue really a great idea ?
I cant see the service being so good if they have to make a profit at the end of each year, and will the pilots be as prepared to put themselves at risk as maybe a serving military pilot might ?
Navy AEW - Merlin ASaC5 (using 8 HM1s that weren't going to be upgraded)
Commando - Merlin HC4 (ex-RAF HC3s modified for use at sea - e.g. folding tails)
SAR - S92 and AW189
The Coastguard helicopters have always been operated by a private company on behalf of HM Coastguard/MCA. Indeed it was Bristow that operated them for most of that time, in addition to SAR services for North Sea oil companies and around the world. In a similar way most air ambulances and some police aviation units are operated by Bond Air Service.
Both Coastguard and JIGSAW (a recent incarnation of the dedicated SAR cover in North Sea) crews have been awarded the Billy Deacon Memorial Trophy, which recognises meritorious service by Coastguard, Navy or RAF winchmen/which operators. It is named after a Bristow Coastguard winchman:
said:
It was 14 years earlier, in November 1997 that the merchant vessel Green Lily got into difficulties in extreme weather conditions, hurricane force 12, with 15 crewmembers on board. With the vessel foundering, five crew members were taken off by the Lerwick Lifeboat, a feat honoured by the coxswain receiving the RNLI`S Gold Medal, its highest award for gallantry, often referred to as the lifeboatmen`s Victoria Cross (VC). As the Lifeboat was unable to recover the rest of the crew, and with the Green Lily very close to the rocky shoreline, the remaining crew had to rely on the SAR helicopter for rescue.
In mountainous seas, Billy Deacon was winched down to the deck of the vessel. Once on board he placed the remaining crew members, two at a time, in the rescue strops and they were all winched to the safety of the helicopter. As the helicopter was in the process of recovering Billy, who was alone on the deck and with the ship now on the rocks, he was washed overboard and engulfed by the waves before the aircraft could complete his rescue. In recognition of Billy’s outstanding courage and bravery in the most severe and demanding conditions he was posthumously awarded the George Medal.
In mountainous seas, Billy Deacon was winched down to the deck of the vessel. Once on board he placed the remaining crew members, two at a time, in the rescue strops and they were all winched to the safety of the helicopter. As the helicopter was in the process of recovering Billy, who was alone on the deck and with the ship now on the rocks, he was washed overboard and engulfed by the waves before the aircraft could complete his rescue. In recognition of Billy’s outstanding courage and bravery in the most severe and demanding conditions he was posthumously awarded the George Medal.
By 2017 the whole contract will be operated by Bristow, the last aircraft changing over will be at Lee on Solent. This is also the location for a new multi million pound training centre.
As for crews you still have military aircrew to pick from and I'm sure SARTU will still be operating after the MOD finish their public SAR role to provide suitable training.
As for crews you still have military aircrew to pick from and I'm sure SARTU will still be operating after the MOD finish their public SAR role to provide suitable training.
ninja-lewis said:
Navy ASW - Merlin HM2 (upgrade from HM1)
Navy AEW - Merlin ASaC5 (using 8 HM1s that weren't going to be upgraded)
Commando - Merlin HC4 (ex-RAF HC3s modified for use at sea - e.g. folding tails)
SAR - S92 and AW189
Navy AEW - Merlin ASaC5 (using 8 HM1s that weren't going to be upgraded)
Commando - Merlin HC4 (ex-RAF HC3s modified for use at sea - e.g. folding tails)
SAR - S92 and AW189
Are these new helicopters being used because it's progress, or just because they are the best compromise currently available ?
RAF HAR3 sea king
17 passengers
Max speed 140mph
250mile range
6hr endurance (standard fuelling means endurance was/is more closer to 2-3hrs)
Single hoist
S-92
21 Passengers
Max speed 170+mph
Over 250mile range
4+hr endurance
Twin hoist
Glass cockpit
MX15 camera
Better communications
AW189
16 passengers
Max speed 170mph
Over 200mile range
4+hr endurance
Twin hoist
Glass cockpit
MX15 camera
Better communications
As you can see its an improvement over the ageing sea king
17 passengers
Max speed 140mph
250mile range
6hr endurance (standard fuelling means endurance was/is more closer to 2-3hrs)
Single hoist
S-92
21 Passengers
Max speed 170+mph
Over 250mile range
4+hr endurance
Twin hoist
Glass cockpit
MX15 camera
Better communications
AW189
16 passengers
Max speed 170mph
Over 200mile range
4+hr endurance
Twin hoist
Glass cockpit
MX15 camera
Better communications
As you can see its an improvement over the ageing sea king
Eric Mc said:
The main problem with the privatisation of air sea rescue (ASR) is the training of new crews when the current batch reach retirement. With military ASR being reduced, will there be a sufficient pool of experienced SR crew being generated|in future years?
plenty of experience from the oil and gas industry , plus service crews will still do some SAR training as Merlin and Chinook have winches and fly CSAR/ MERT not sure of the Puma has a winch . SBQuattro said:
So how do they compare to the Sea King performance, payload & range wise ?
Are these new helicopters being used because it's progress, or just because they are the best compromise currently available ?
The Merlin is a considerably better aircraft and replaced all the SKs other than SAR fleet a number of years ago , the Merlin HC4/ HC5 move to CHF is in part due to increased fleet size of Chinooks with the botched SF aircraft being able to fly and the new builds getting delivered Are these new helicopters being used because it's progress, or just because they are the best compromise currently available ?
mph1977 said:
plenty of experience from the oil and gas industry , plus service crews will still do some SAR training as Merlin and Chinook have winches and fly CSAR/ MERT not sure of the Puma has a winch .
The chinook has a winch although I think it would only be used in extreme measures however they can also be fitted with a hoist which is more suited to the job 
A winch is for pulling a hoist is for lifting
mph1977 said:
SBQuattro said:
So how do they compare to the Sea King performance, payload & range wise ?
Are these new helicopters being used because it's progress, or just because they are the best compromise currently available ?
The Merlin is a considerably better aircraft and replaced all the SKs other than SAR fleet a number of years ago , the Merlin HC4/ HC5 move to CHF is in part due to increased fleet size of Chinooks with the botched SF aircraft being able to fly and the new builds getting delivered Are these new helicopters being used because it's progress, or just because they are the best compromise currently available ?
mph1977 said:
Eric Mc said:
The main problem with the privatisation of air sea rescue (ASR) is the training of new crews when the current batch reach retirement. With military ASR being reduced, will there be a sufficient pool of experienced SR crew being generated|in future years?
plenty of experience from the oil and gas industry , plus service crews will still do some SAR training as Merlin and Chinook have winches and fly CSAR/ MERT not sure of the Puma has a winch . Hooli said:
ecsrobin said:
A winch is for pulling a hoist is for lifting
So why does a bloke I know who hangs off the rope from the Stornaway SAR chopper call himself a winchman?it doesn;t change the fact that Merlin and Chinook are thusly equipped , do crab air's pumas have one as well?
elsewhere in the world there's stuff as 'small' as Dauphins / Explorer / EC135/146 equipped with winches / hoists
Eric Mc said:
How many of the current chopper pilots in civil ASR and the oil and gas industry have received their pilot training courtesy of the UK taxpayer?
None Eric. But there are plenty of ex-military pilots like me working in both areas who have paid their OWN money out to get a civilian licence. AFAIK nobody has had their civilian licence paid for by the government.Edit: I'm not entirely sure what question you're asking here. There are lots of time-expired ex military pilots who have paid out their own money to get a civilian licence, then got a job in O&G or SAR, with the type rating paid for by the civilian company (followed by a period of bonding), which is the standard in the civilian world....unless you're unlucky enough to be joining a low-cost airline.
Edited by Siko on Tuesday 31st March 17:39
mph1977 said:
Hooli said:
ecsrobin said:
A winch is for pulling a hoist is for lifting
So why does a bloke I know who hangs off the rope from the Stornaway SAR chopper call himself a winchman?it doesn;t change the fact that Merlin and Chinook are thusly equipped , do crab air's pumas have one as well?
elsewhere in the world there's stuff as 'small' as Dauphins / Explorer / EC135/146 equipped with winches / hoists
I have never seen an RAF puma with a hoist however Pumas can be fitted with them. The RAF also operate Griffins in a SAR role in Cyprus with a hoist and from valley as part of the training they operate AW139 alongside the griffin.
ecsrobin said:
Indeed a very good question, probably one of them names where someone just came out of it and it stuck.
I have never seen an RAF puma with a hoist however Pumas can be fitted with them. The RAF also operate Griffins in a SAR role in Cyprus with a hoist and from valley as part of the training they operate AW139 alongside the griffin.
RAF Puma Mk1 had a hoist, it was a bit Heath Robinson but worked fine, may have been used to practise winching in and out of minefields in Kosovo from a considerable height. Not sure if the Mk2 can fit one though.I have never seen an RAF puma with a hoist however Pumas can be fitted with them. The RAF also operate Griffins in a SAR role in Cyprus with a hoist and from valley as part of the training they operate AW139 alongside the griffin.
ecsrobin said:
mph1977 said:
Hooli said:
ecsrobin said:
A winch is for pulling a hoist is for lifting
So why does a bloke I know who hangs off the rope from the Stornaway SAR chopper call himself a winchman?it doesn;t change the fact that Merlin and Chinook are thusly equipped , do crab air's pumas have one as well?
elsewhere in the world there's stuff as 'small' as Dauphins / Explorer / EC135/146 equipped with winches / hoists
I have never seen an RAF puma with a hoist however Pumas can be fitted with them. The RAF also operate Griffins in a SAR role in Cyprus with a hoist and from valley as part of the training they operate AW139 alongside the griffin.
I have a photo I took dangling from the winch of the '61 whilst being winched for a Canadian tv crew on to a boat near Lerwick in the late 90s...
The Sikorsky built S-61s and Seakings all had the 5 bladed tailrotor and large stabiliser with brace strut. The Westlands got a mixture of 5 or 6 bladed tailrotor and a smaller stabiliser.
The major variants of Sikorsky chopper were the stretched Ls without sponsons but a 45deg tail pylon in lieu of the usual 30deg pylon and it lost the boat hull belly shape too. The N was stretched too but boat shaped and had bigger sponsons than the S-61A/Seaking and also had the 45deg pylon.
The S61R was the HH3-C/E/F "Jolly Green Giant" or Pelican in US Coat Guard and Italian use (the latter also license built in Italy)
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