Track Brakes - where to buy? Clio 172?
Discussion
Hello
I have done a few searches, including this, an interesting read
http://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?t=122...
I cooked our Ferodo 2500 at the last track day at Lydden, but cant seem to find much else to try, some argue that EBC yellow (or other colours) work, the Carbone Lorraine seem to get good reviews. Brembo High Carbon Discs seem popular, any thought on Brembo Max?
This company seem to do a good deal
http://www.k-tecracing.com/show_product.asp?id=278...
Obviously there is eBay, but I wanted to know if anyone has a hidden gem of a site for race temp brakes?
Thanks
p.s. anyone off to Lydden on 11th April?
Yep, something like the Lorraines will be a step up. Or Pagid RS14s or Performance frictions. You get what you pay for. You could give DS3000s a go, on S2000s they got great feedback
http://www.pagidracing.com/products/pagid-rs/
http://www.europerformance.co.uk/pages/products/ca...
I wouldn't touch EBC, like I said, you get what you pay for.
http://www.pagidracing.com/products/pagid-rs/
http://www.europerformance.co.uk/pages/products/ca...
I wouldn't touch EBC, like I said, you get what you pay for.
Whilst I agree in principle with Robin that you get what you pay for, in this case I cannot agree fully.
The issue in most cases regarding serious track time is heat. Heat kills most components and the longer you run the more heat will build up. You can go money no object and get F1 carbon brakes, but even those have been known to fail when used beyond their designed temperature parameters, so where do you stop? (pun intended)
Our track car was unable to do more than 5 hot laps on Bedford GT before the brakes started to cook themselves, judder, vibration through the pedal and wheel and loss of bite. Leave it in the pits for 20 minutes and its back to normal for another 5 laps lol
People were saying, get bigger disks, bigger calipers, CR/PF/etc./etc. pads on the basis of better performance and durability. Fair enough, but at significantly increased cost and the heat issue remains. Upgrading will give you additional heat soak capacity, but going at the same pace for longer will eventually result in the same issue.
Instead, we stayed with the standard calipers and disks, renewed the disks and pads front and rear (EBC Blue NDX on a budget, for reference) and purchased designed for purpose cooling duct plates which replaced the OEM dust shields at the front. To these we attached 3" hoses and fed them to an intake on the front bumper on each side.
Yesterday we did our first track day of the year, we moved from 3 laps per stint to 10 laps at speed (not including out and in laps) and the brakes were solid. On reflection the car would have been happy to do much longer stints. Front brakes were cooler than the rears, front tyre pressures were lower than previously measured over 3-5 hot laps. If anything, we might have to do something about the rears now. Overall we did double the mileage and used double the fuel compared with the previous track day on the same track after the upgrades.
Ok granted, we have not gained more clamping power, or better modulated brake feel, but the behaviour of the brakes was consistent throughout an 8 hour day when stamped on, and we were in a fair few cases able to pull on the brakes against cars running 4 pots and above. We saw two examples of faster cars with better brakes trying to stay ahead of us for a lap or two, eventually experiencing brake fade and understeer in front of us, following which they pulled into the pits on each occasion.
For refrence, the Cooling plates were £100 from the US, Front and rear Brembo Hi-Carbon disks under £100 for the lot. Pads were £160 for the lot, and a few quid here and there for hoses and clamps. As a comparison the CR pads for our car for the front axle alone are over £250 quid!!!
The moral of the story, manage the heat and everything will work better and you will get better life span out of your consumable components. If money is no object, then go for over engineering with components to compensate, but I'm an advocate for managing root cause first.
If you want more stopping power, that's another discussion.
I hope this helps
Humour.
The issue in most cases regarding serious track time is heat. Heat kills most components and the longer you run the more heat will build up. You can go money no object and get F1 carbon brakes, but even those have been known to fail when used beyond their designed temperature parameters, so where do you stop? (pun intended)
Our track car was unable to do more than 5 hot laps on Bedford GT before the brakes started to cook themselves, judder, vibration through the pedal and wheel and loss of bite. Leave it in the pits for 20 minutes and its back to normal for another 5 laps lol
People were saying, get bigger disks, bigger calipers, CR/PF/etc./etc. pads on the basis of better performance and durability. Fair enough, but at significantly increased cost and the heat issue remains. Upgrading will give you additional heat soak capacity, but going at the same pace for longer will eventually result in the same issue.
Instead, we stayed with the standard calipers and disks, renewed the disks and pads front and rear (EBC Blue NDX on a budget, for reference) and purchased designed for purpose cooling duct plates which replaced the OEM dust shields at the front. To these we attached 3" hoses and fed them to an intake on the front bumper on each side.
Yesterday we did our first track day of the year, we moved from 3 laps per stint to 10 laps at speed (not including out and in laps) and the brakes were solid. On reflection the car would have been happy to do much longer stints. Front brakes were cooler than the rears, front tyre pressures were lower than previously measured over 3-5 hot laps. If anything, we might have to do something about the rears now. Overall we did double the mileage and used double the fuel compared with the previous track day on the same track after the upgrades.
Ok granted, we have not gained more clamping power, or better modulated brake feel, but the behaviour of the brakes was consistent throughout an 8 hour day when stamped on, and we were in a fair few cases able to pull on the brakes against cars running 4 pots and above. We saw two examples of faster cars with better brakes trying to stay ahead of us for a lap or two, eventually experiencing brake fade and understeer in front of us, following which they pulled into the pits on each occasion.
For refrence, the Cooling plates were £100 from the US, Front and rear Brembo Hi-Carbon disks under £100 for the lot. Pads were £160 for the lot, and a few quid here and there for hoses and clamps. As a comparison the CR pads for our car for the front axle alone are over £250 quid!!!
The moral of the story, manage the heat and everything will work better and you will get better life span out of your consumable components. If money is no object, then go for over engineering with components to compensate, but I'm an advocate for managing root cause first.
If you want more stopping power, that's another discussion.
I hope this helps
Humour.
I agree with the above on cooling, have a good look around & see if you can improve it any, it WILL help.
On pads I have used DS UNO & Pagid RS 29s on my e36 to great effect with & without extra cooling, but with ATE super blue (now called something different & not blue any more, it is something like SR200) and both will manage 20 laps of Cadwell without issue at all. Both last VERY well too, generally I get a full season of TDs out of either.
On pads I have used DS UNO & Pagid RS 29s on my e36 to great effect with & without extra cooling, but with ATE super blue (now called something different & not blue any more, it is something like SR200) and both will manage 20 laps of Cadwell without issue at all. Both last VERY well too, generally I get a full season of TDs out of either.
andyiley said:
I agree with the above on cooling, have a good look around & see if you can improve it any, it WILL help.
On pads I have used DS UNO & Pagid RS 29s on my e36 to great effect with & without extra cooling, but with ATE super blue (now called something different & not blue any more, it is something like SR200) and both will manage 20 laps of Cadwell without issue at all. Both last VERY well too, generally I get a full season of TDs out of either.
They still do the Super Racing Blue mate, they also have the TYP200 which is golden. It's the same stuff though.On pads I have used DS UNO & Pagid RS 29s on my e36 to great effect with & without extra cooling, but with ATE super blue (now called something different & not blue any more, it is something like SR200) and both will manage 20 laps of Cadwell without issue at all. Both last VERY well too, generally I get a full season of TDs out of either.
I agree with the cooling comments and brake fluid, they'll also help greatly. Upgrade to components that are better at operating at higher temps and for longer periods, and also focus on increasing the ability for the components to dissipate heat.
I bought some of these, when fitting ducting to my s2k, and a very cheap hole saw for the drill from ebay. Drilled the dust guards and riveted these on. Totally worth doing
http://www.demon-tweeks.co.uk/motorsport/ducts-duc...
Discs from my honda experience have always had mixed views. Some preferring cheap ones and running them for a good while whilst just keeping an eye out for the start of fatigue, whilst others swearing by the likes of the higher carbon content stuff.
I bought some of these, when fitting ducting to my s2k, and a very cheap hole saw for the drill from ebay. Drilled the dust guards and riveted these on. Totally worth doing
http://www.demon-tweeks.co.uk/motorsport/ducts-duc...
Discs from my honda experience have always had mixed views. Some preferring cheap ones and running them for a good while whilst just keeping an eye out for the start of fatigue, whilst others swearing by the likes of the higher carbon content stuff.
Edited by robinandcamera on Wednesday 1st April 15:24
All sound advice up above OP
Brake fluid and ideally braided lines I would say are prerequisite before going on track, I personally wouldn't risk taking the car out with those two in unknown condition.
Super Blue is great, we use it to good effect although we have found that pedal travel has increased a tad by heating the fluid close to boiling point. Quick flush and away we go again.
Robin, I think I can beat your cooling intakes
Wickes black PVC guttering at £2.99 each, a dremmel and a file, followed by generous application of Sikaflex made a suitable replacement for the missing fog lights of an E36 front bumper. Wickes offers 20 year guarantee on the plastic as well...
win win Wickes
Hi-Carbon content disks in theory should be able to soak up more heat than normal iron, however I'm of the opinion now that given that both disks and pads are consumables and that pads for track cost two or three times the cost of a pair of disks (in our case) and arguably the pads wear quicker than the disks (especially true if heat isn't managed), I will be more than content to be changing disks once or twice, during the life of a set of pads. As long as it's round, balanced and not Chinese cast iron, it will do. Last purchase was Brembo's high carbon, but the Vanilla disks will do just as well, both were shockingly cheap per axle for a reputable brand.
Brake fluid and ideally braided lines I would say are prerequisite before going on track, I personally wouldn't risk taking the car out with those two in unknown condition.
Super Blue is great, we use it to good effect although we have found that pedal travel has increased a tad by heating the fluid close to boiling point. Quick flush and away we go again.
Robin, I think I can beat your cooling intakes
Wickes black PVC guttering at £2.99 each, a dremmel and a file, followed by generous application of Sikaflex made a suitable replacement for the missing fog lights of an E36 front bumper. Wickes offers 20 year guarantee on the plastic as well... win win WickesHi-Carbon content disks in theory should be able to soak up more heat than normal iron, however I'm of the opinion now that given that both disks and pads are consumables and that pads for track cost two or three times the cost of a pair of disks (in our case) and arguably the pads wear quicker than the disks (especially true if heat isn't managed), I will be more than content to be changing disks once or twice, during the life of a set of pads. As long as it's round, balanced and not Chinese cast iron, it will do. Last purchase was Brembo's high carbon, but the Vanilla disks will do just as well, both were shockingly cheap per axle for a reputable brand.
Thanks for the replies everyone.
I've already done a few of the things suggested above, braided lines, racing high temp fluid and tried to improve the cooling with front fogs and wheel arch liner removal.
Had Ferodo 2500 on last time out, but cooked them pretty quick, learnt a valuable lesson that day!
Gravel is a great invention!
This would have really hurt otherwise!
I've already done a few of the things suggested above, braided lines, racing high temp fluid and tried to improve the cooling with front fogs and wheel arch liner removal.
Had Ferodo 2500 on last time out, but cooked them pretty quick, learnt a valuable lesson that day!
Gravel is a great invention!
This would have really hurt otherwise!
Ouch. Unlucky. Just goes to show at speed we rely on the brakes so much that they have to be right.
In terms of cooling, how have you plumbed this and is any cold air from the front reaching the disk/hub/calipers?
Ideally you want to have cold air feeding into the hub and forcing air through the vanes of the disk and out of the vanes on the outside diameter. Any other solution which isn't constantly moving cold air in that area (e.g. different wheel angles blocking the cold air path) will not be very efficient and therefore not sufficient in the long term (e.g. more laps = more heat build up).
@Robin that's a great idea actually, the rear end cooling is next on the agenda and you have given me an idea or two to go investigate.
In terms of cooling, how have you plumbed this and is any cold air from the front reaching the disk/hub/calipers?
Ideally you want to have cold air feeding into the hub and forcing air through the vanes of the disk and out of the vanes on the outside diameter. Any other solution which isn't constantly moving cold air in that area (e.g. different wheel angles blocking the cold air path) will not be very efficient and therefore not sufficient in the long term (e.g. more laps = more heat build up).
@Robin that's a great idea actually, the rear end cooling is next on the agenda and you have given me an idea or two to go investigate.
Edited by Humour on Wednesday 1st April 22:00
Ouch, that gravel rash isn't nice. Thats why I'm a sissy and go to Bedford and Snetterton a lot, no gravel!
http://www.s2ki.com/s2000/topic/949461-diy-rear-br...
Humour said:
@Robin that's a great idea actually, the rear end cooling is next on the agenda and you have given me an idea or two to go investigate.
I grabbed the part number off of these and found a set on ebay in the US. I'm sure there is a ton of other similar scoops that can be used though. The cable ties kept snapping, so they were definitely pulling in a lot of air, I ended up needing four ties!Edited by Humour on Wednesday 1st April 22:00
http://www.s2ki.com/s2000/topic/949461-diy-rear-br...
Edited by robinandcamera on Thursday 2nd April 10:06
robinandcamera said:
I grabbed the part number off of these and found a set on ebay in the US. I'm sure there is a ton of other similar scoops that can be used though. The cable ties kept snapping, so they were definitely pulling in a lot of air, I ended up needing four ties!
http://www.s2ki.com/s2000/topic/949461-diy-rear-br...
Perfect. Now I can go look at vacuum cleaners and attachments with the missus and genuinely look interested in the products lol http://www.s2ki.com/s2000/topic/949461-diy-rear-br...
Edited by robinandcamera on Thursday 2nd April 10:06
I'm not sure that the scoop needs to be that big, but something similar will pop into view I'm sure. For me it's more important where that air is fed at the output side. Cooling the inside disk surface is no bueno, it needs to go into the hub area and into the disk vanes so both sides of the disk are being cooled, the cooling of the bearings is the brucey bonus
http://www.roadtrackraceparts.com/
He's on Cliosport.net and I've used him for years, no one has ever a bad word to say about him.
He was formally G 172, have a search on there for him.
He's on Cliosport.net and I've used him for years, no one has ever a bad word to say about him.
He was formally G 172, have a search on there for him.
We have a few different types of Clio'sat RSRNurburg, but never have brake issues, could it be your technique?
However, would recommend M-TECH groved and dimpled discs but avoid ebc pads.Go to Mintex or similar. M-TECH are extremely helpfull wanting to help over sell.Talk to them first.;)
However, would recommend M-TECH groved and dimpled discs but avoid ebc pads.Go to Mintex or similar. M-TECH are extremely helpfull wanting to help over sell.Talk to them first.;)
Brembo sport max discs and EBC yellow / blue pads, ate super blue fluid for me (e36 328) plenty of brake ducting and they withstand 20 mins races. No ducting, and they cook within 10-15 mins
1 set of discs, 2-3 sets of pads, per season, season has. 8 weekends with 1hour of track time per weekend.
1 set of discs, 2-3 sets of pads, per season, season has. 8 weekends with 1hour of track time per weekend.
Tommo Two said:
Brembo sport max discs and EBC yellow / blue pads, ate super blue fluid for me (e36 328) plenty of brake ducting and they withstand 20 mins races. No ducting, and they cook within 10-15 mins
1 set of discs, 2-3 sets of pads, per season, season has. 8 weekends with 1hour of track time per weekend.
Also have an e36 328, but wouldn't touch ebc (again) if you paid me!1 set of discs, 2-3 sets of pads, per season, season has. 8 weekends with 1hour of track time per weekend.
I have tried many different pads/manufacturers, ebc red/yellow/blue, all were rubbish, ds2500 were ok, mintex 1144 were too, but ebc! 1 day at Cadwell if I was lucky, most of the time not even a full day.
You need to try either DS uno or pagid rs29, you will not look back.
1 set of discs &. full year of td's out of one set, with MUCH better braking, and pad life to spare.
I used Carbon Lorraine RC5+ at Bedford SEN in Febuary with RBF 660 brake fluid. The fluid boiled before the pads gave up. On cliosport.net a few people have done some decent guides at removing the fog lamps and running ducts to the inside of the discs to aid with cooling which would be worth looking into. The race clios had a plate which also directed air at the back of the disc in association with the above.
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