Discussion
TP321 said:
Streetrod said:
Lets get a couple of facts straight here, first the tub is not the same, it has lower sills to make it easier to get in and out of, plus the way the doors open has been altered to also help ingress.
The suspension does not use the cross linked hydraulic systems on the 650s and P1, it uses a more passive system and anti-role bars which is a lot cheaper to produce.
The car is actually bigger than the 650's and has more interior space.
And last but not least this car is designed to compete with the R8 and Porsche Turbo which can only be a good thing as the buyer now has more choice in that segment.
Your opinons are subjective mate re the doors; do you have the same thoughts about the LaFerrari doors? As for pulling out of the 458 market segment what the hell do you think the 650s and 675LT are competing against.
At the end of the day McLaren’s massive investment in road cars is paying off. The firm has been in profit only three years after launching the 12c. Add the fact that it is very hard to find a 650s on the used market compared to its immediate competitors would seem to indicate that customers are keen to keep hold of their cars and residues will stay high. This sounds like they have got things right to me...
When did you last see a LaFerrari being used as a daily driver?? Stupid doorsThe suspension does not use the cross linked hydraulic systems on the 650s and P1, it uses a more passive system and anti-role bars which is a lot cheaper to produce.
The car is actually bigger than the 650's and has more interior space.
And last but not least this car is designed to compete with the R8 and Porsche Turbo which can only be a good thing as the buyer now has more choice in that segment.
Your opinons are subjective mate re the doors; do you have the same thoughts about the LaFerrari doors? As for pulling out of the 458 market segment what the hell do you think the 650s and 675LT are competing against.
At the end of the day McLaren’s massive investment in road cars is paying off. The firm has been in profit only three years after launching the 12c. Add the fact that it is very hard to find a 650s on the used market compared to its immediate competitors would seem to indicate that customers are keen to keep hold of their cars and residues will stay high. This sounds like they have got things right to me...
The 650s will not be replaced - it has at best another 2 years but I can't see anyone buying one now that this 570 is available. The replacement will be Aventador money. Mclaren can't compete against the 458 with the 12c or 650s
If this is £160k with options, expect massive discounts in 6 months. History repeats itself, you need to have been around long enough to know it...mate.
Streetrod said:
On what basis do you say the 650s does not compete with the 458???? Seriously I would love to know. As for not selling any more, I better go tell my brother to cancel his order, oh and one of my busisess associates who has not just a 650s but also a 675LT on order
They pitched the 12c against the 458, and got slaughtered. All the press preferred the 458. A year after launch, the 12c was being discounted. The 12c Spyder was launched in oct 2012 and by summer 2013 you could get a very big discount on a new one. Then the 12c was given a facelift and called 650s in order yo give it a new lease of life and keep the model going. The proof is in the pudding: why is a 2011 12c selling for £110k when a 2011 458 sells for £145k?? Wait and see when the 488 hits the streets - let's see what that does to the 650s when the Ferrari will have 670bhp. Mclaren know they can't compete against the 458/488 segment, hence they are going after the lower segment (r8 and 911 turbo). TP321 said:
They pitched the 12c against the 458, and got slaughtered. All the press preferred the 458. A year after launch, the 12c was being discounted. The 12c Spyder was launched in oct 2012 and by summer 2013 you could get a very big discount on a new one. Then the 12c was given a facelift and called 650s in order yo give it a new lease of life and keep the model going. The proof is in the pudding: why is a 2011 12c selling for £110k when a 2011 458 sells for £145k?? Wait and see when the 488 hits the streets - let's see what that does to the 650s when the Ferrari will have 670bhp. Mclaren know they can't compete against the 458/488 segment, hence they are going after the lower segment (r8 and 911 turbo).
You need to re-read your articles - in almost every test the 12C/650S was rated as objectively more accomplished (faster, more comfortable, most composed) than the 458. The opinion of the press is that it 'lacked character'. Now two things, that is subjective and it appears that you place too much faith in the press...Residuals are a TOTALLY different thing, as should be quite apparent. You are comparing a 3 year old (in terms of modern roadcars) company versus one of the most unique brands in history in terms of its longevity in the sector and monopolising of desirability and after-sales value. I personally think anyone that expects the same residuals on a [non-Ultimate Series or limited edition] McLaren versus a Ferrari is ill-informed.
McLaren clearly compete with the 458/488 (I find it baffling that you think otherwise as you are disagreeing with almost anyone in the know, including Ferrari). The rivalry has added a kick of life into the segment too, adding to the competition. Add to this the fact that they have sold over 5,000 12C/625C/650S in less than 3 years, which are numbers to rival the Gallardo/Huracan in terms of sales over the same period.
The 570S (and other Sports Series McLarens) are not made as a dodge to 'get out' of competing with Ferrari. They are clearly a shot at brand diversification. The bottom line is the bottom line. They need to increase profits and an 'entry-level' car will achieve this. Using your logic, Porsche was attempting to get out of the sportscar market when it introduced the Cayenne.
Totally agree!!
When I was looking to buy a 458.. Guess which car I was also looking at?? McLaren of course so to say they are not competitors is a bit baffling... I think you will find most people who bought McLaren or Ferrari would have considered one or the other in the thought process...
When I was looking to buy a 458.. Guess which car I was also looking at?? McLaren of course so to say they are not competitors is a bit baffling... I think you will find most people who bought McLaren or Ferrari would have considered one or the other in the thought process...
I wouldn't consider a Ferrari( though I agree they are in the same market segment as McLaren)because, however accomplished and full of soul their cars are, in the UK they attract more bad comments than good and you have people either think you're a knob or have gold diggers after you. Obviously this isn't in all cases but you are more likely to experience this with a Ferrari. Now in the short time I've driven a 650s, there have only been good comments and reactions. Out of all the cars I've had up to now, I've been let out of junctions and into gaps more and even had traffic police asking me to rev it a bit as it wasn't loud enough!
Oh, and don't really like the 570 too much at the moment. Maybe seeing it in the flesh will be different
Oh, and don't really like the 570 too much at the moment. Maybe seeing it in the flesh will be different
TP321 said:
Streetrod said:
On what basis do you say the 650s does not compete with the 458???? Seriously I would love to know. As for not selling any more, I better go tell my brother to cancel his order, oh and one of my busisess associates who has not just a 650s but also a 675LT on order
They pitched the 12c against the 458, and got slaughtered. All the press preferred the 458. A year after launch, the 12c was being discounted. The 12c Spyder was launched in oct 2012 and by summer 2013 you could get a very big discount on a new one. Then the 12c was given a facelift and called 650s in order yo give it a new lease of life and keep the model going. The proof is in the pudding: why is a 2011 12c selling for £110k when a 2011 458 sells for £145k?? Wait and see when the 488 hits the streets - let's see what that does to the 650s when the Ferrari will have 670bhp. Mclaren know they can't compete against the 458/488 segment, hence they are going after the lower segment (r8 and 911 turbo). If you check the classifieds you will find nearly 130 458's for sale compared to only 42 12c/650's. When you check the history of those 458's you will find a large number have been cluttering up dealer showrooms for months. So I would conclude that your quoted £145K offer price is not a selling price at all. That then begs the question about how much the prices are being propped up by the dealers?
At the end of the day McLaren have jumped into what is probably the hardest market to crack and within 3 years have turned a profit. Not only that they have produced a 3 tier line up that appears to have its customer base exited
For what it's worth - I do think McLaren are competitors to the established brands. I am also really pleased that there is a credible British car firm on the map - which I think we should all applaud.
I am a bit "meh" about their exterior styling - which it, in my opinion, is too derivative. I like the interior of the MP4 12/650 - it looks a cool place to be in. Very simple and very "apple". Nothing to distract from the driving. And they are quick. Very quick. There have been questions and/or concerns on the "emotion side" - which being a subjective thing is difficult to quantify which, in my opinion, were correct - but seem to have been addressed over a period of time. Which is good to see that McLaren are listening and, in many cases, to their customers.
The new car fills a gap that they haven't previously targeted, the 911 Turbo/MB AMG GT-S circa £150K slot. One could argue that Porsche haven't really altered the look and design of their 911 for 50 years - it's evolved (read got better, bigger and faster) - but they also have the Boxster/Cayman, the Cayenne/Macan and the Panamera (or what ever it's called) and of course the 918 Spyder- so they have the diversification and cars to fill different segments. They (Porsche) also have a very, very loyal customer base. It seems to me that's what McLaren are trying to achieve - different products for different markets and as I think we can see on this forum, they are building up a loyal customer base too!
I remain unconvinced by the 570S - I haven't seen it in the flesh - so will reserve my judgement. I am cancelling my 675LT order, as it's too derivative for me. I like the changes to the back end and I have no doubt about the performance - it will be super quick (my friend's wife has just taken delivery of her 650s - she shares a 599XX with her husband and they are both awesome drivers - they are very impressed with its performance - but interestingly enough her husband says says "The 650S is mind-blowingly quick, feels a lot faster than the 458. Not as much fun as a 458 Speciale but faster is my guess") - but when I look at it objectively - what would I prefer - a 675 LT or a Lamborghini Aventador SV?
There's no contest for me.
I am a bit "meh" about their exterior styling - which it, in my opinion, is too derivative. I like the interior of the MP4 12/650 - it looks a cool place to be in. Very simple and very "apple". Nothing to distract from the driving. And they are quick. Very quick. There have been questions and/or concerns on the "emotion side" - which being a subjective thing is difficult to quantify which, in my opinion, were correct - but seem to have been addressed over a period of time. Which is good to see that McLaren are listening and, in many cases, to their customers.
The new car fills a gap that they haven't previously targeted, the 911 Turbo/MB AMG GT-S circa £150K slot. One could argue that Porsche haven't really altered the look and design of their 911 for 50 years - it's evolved (read got better, bigger and faster) - but they also have the Boxster/Cayman, the Cayenne/Macan and the Panamera (or what ever it's called) and of course the 918 Spyder- so they have the diversification and cars to fill different segments. They (Porsche) also have a very, very loyal customer base. It seems to me that's what McLaren are trying to achieve - different products for different markets and as I think we can see on this forum, they are building up a loyal customer base too!
I remain unconvinced by the 570S - I haven't seen it in the flesh - so will reserve my judgement. I am cancelling my 675LT order, as it's too derivative for me. I like the changes to the back end and I have no doubt about the performance - it will be super quick (my friend's wife has just taken delivery of her 650s - she shares a 599XX with her husband and they are both awesome drivers - they are very impressed with its performance - but interestingly enough her husband says says "The 650S is mind-blowingly quick, feels a lot faster than the 458. Not as much fun as a 458 Speciale but faster is my guess") - but when I look at it objectively - what would I prefer - a 675 LT or a Lamborghini Aventador SV?
There's no contest for me.
Mclaren styling too derivative
Audi has photocopyer syndrome
Aston Martin churn out the same thing
Porsche designers are the laziest in the world
Jaguar up/down scale the same look.
BMW, Mercedes Benz etc or making little/big versions of one core model...
Thing is depending on your budget and needs, it's not like you're going to be buying one of each model or market sector
You want an Audi, you get the Audi look
You want a Porsche, there is no mistaking them
McLaren now have a family tree if thats your thing
etc etc
I'm not keen on photocopier-family faces being over utilised, but it appears that the business has picked up on profits relating to an easily recognised brand. So its rather game over for diverse styling under the same badge.....
Ferrari mind you..... doing better....?
Audi has photocopyer syndrome
Aston Martin churn out the same thing
Porsche designers are the laziest in the world
Jaguar up/down scale the same look.
BMW, Mercedes Benz etc or making little/big versions of one core model...
Thing is depending on your budget and needs, it's not like you're going to be buying one of each model or market sector
You want an Audi, you get the Audi look
You want a Porsche, there is no mistaking them
McLaren now have a family tree if thats your thing
etc etc
I'm not keen on photocopier-family faces being over utilised, but it appears that the business has picked up on profits relating to an easily recognised brand. So its rather game over for diverse styling under the same badge.....
Ferrari mind you..... doing better....?
Thing is, Ferrari have 4 completely cars in their range at the moment, cali, 458, F12, FF. They are all pretty different appealing to a different market for each one (ish) and there are variants in the range such as 458 spyder, special etc.
As above, Porsche have the 918, 911, boxter, caymen, macan, cayenne, panamera. again all different. again each model has different variants
McLaren seem to be spinning lots of derivatives off the same tub but apart from pricing to a certain extent, they are too similar. they need to do something different now, like a 4 seater (or 2 + 2)
As above, Porsche have the 918, 911, boxter, caymen, macan, cayenne, panamera. again all different. again each model has different variants
McLaren seem to be spinning lots of derivatives off the same tub but apart from pricing to a certain extent, they are too similar. they need to do something different now, like a 4 seater (or 2 + 2)
Oh, dear... Another thread side tracked into McLaren vs Ferrari and residuals..........
This forum seems to be populated by either disgruntled Ferrari drivers on a mission to take down the British brand, or unsecure McLaren owners having to argue there choice or blatantly repeating their cars are the best in the whole wide world.
This forum would be a lot more fun it was about sharing info and experience on the car we love (Mclaren). Both good and bad.
Look at my last thread about the air bag issue. Little response, except for Ash (thanks that is useful and I will know what it is in the next 1/2h when I get to Ascot).
We all have different taste. Lets agree to disagree. There are all great cars with different attributes, character and experience. We are all different and are also all looking for different things.
Do you guys really look at residuals when buying a £120k+ car....... I mean it is relevant to llok at it but it is no way the deciding factor.
This forum seems to be populated by either disgruntled Ferrari drivers on a mission to take down the British brand, or unsecure McLaren owners having to argue there choice or blatantly repeating their cars are the best in the whole wide world.
This forum would be a lot more fun it was about sharing info and experience on the car we love (Mclaren). Both good and bad.
Look at my last thread about the air bag issue. Little response, except for Ash (thanks that is useful and I will know what it is in the next 1/2h when I get to Ascot).
We all have different taste. Lets agree to disagree. There are all great cars with different attributes, character and experience. We are all different and are also all looking for different things.
Do you guys really look at residuals when buying a £120k+ car....... I mean it is relevant to llok at it but it is no way the deciding factor.
Edited by mb1 on Wednesday 1st April 14:44
Although it'd have been nice for them to break the 12c/650s shape mould a bit more with the styling, i think this is the better looking of the three, and the main styling mute point of the 12c/650s (the rear end) has been addressed nicely (although you could argue that the 675LT has improved that slightly weak IMHO styling area by some margin with a complete rear end redesign)
I'm not sure where it leaves the 650s in terms of comparative value though, as asides from some of the finer technical points (suspension redesign), can people really tell the difference between 570 and 650bhp on the road, and does it justify the extra £70-90k outlay for the 650 with a very similar tub/engine architecture ?
Personally, it puts a Mclaren in my price range, which is a good thing for me, but maybe it devalues the position of the 650s, I don't know
Be interested to hear what others think
I'm not sure where it leaves the 650s in terms of comparative value though, as asides from some of the finer technical points (suspension redesign), can people really tell the difference between 570 and 650bhp on the road, and does it justify the extra £70-90k outlay for the 650 with a very similar tub/engine architecture ?
Personally, it puts a Mclaren in my price range, which is a good thing for me, but maybe it devalues the position of the 650s, I don't know
Be interested to hear what others think
Edited by graeme4130 on Wednesday 1st April 18:15
graeme4130 said:
Although it'd have been nice for them to break the 12c/650s shape mould a bit more with the styling, i think this is the better looking of the three, and the main styling mute point of the 12c/650s (the rear end) has been addressed nicely (although you could argue that the 675LT has upped that slightly weak IMHO styling area by some margin with a complete rear end redesign)
I'm not sure where it leaves the 650s in terms of comparative value though, as asides from some of the finer technical points (suspension redesign), can people really tell the difference between 570 and 650bhp on the road, and does it justify the extra £70-90k outlay for the 650 with a very similar tub/engine architecture ?
Personally, it puts a Mclaren in my price range, which is a good thing for me, but maybe it devalues the position of the 650s, I don't know
Be interested to hear what others think
Where does it leave the 650s? In no mans land of course! Who is going to buy a 650s now that a car that is 90% identical can be bought for £130k (540s)? But Mclaren already know this - it is their strategy to kill off the 12c/650s because they can't compete against the 458/488. They in stead will move upwards to try and compete against the Aventador with a £300k plus new car. They tried taking on Ferrari in the mid V8 segment and lost, and are now making a hasty retreat, leaving behind abysmal residuals....I'm not sure where it leaves the 650s in terms of comparative value though, as asides from some of the finer technical points (suspension redesign), can people really tell the difference between 570 and 650bhp on the road, and does it justify the extra £70-90k outlay for the 650 with a very similar tub/engine architecture ?
Personally, it puts a Mclaren in my price range, which is a good thing for me, but maybe it devalues the position of the 650s, I don't know
Be interested to hear what others think
TP321 said:
Where does it leave the 650s? In no mans land of course! Who is going to buy a 650s now that a car that is 90% identical can be bought for £130k (540s)? But Mclaren already know this - it is their strategy to kill off the 12c/650s because they can't compete against the 458/488. They in stead will move upwards to try and compete against the Aventador with a £300k plus new car. They tried taking on Ferrari in the mid V8 segment and lost, and are now making a hasty retreat, leaving behind abysmal residuals....
You can't wake a man who only pretends to be asleep. Edited by br d on Wednesday 1st April 18:31
TP321 said:
Where does it leave the 650s? In no mans land of course! Who is going to buy a 650s now that a car that is 90% identical can be bought for £130k (540s)? But Mclaren already know this - it is their strategy to kill off the 12c/650s because they can't compete against the 458/488. They in stead will move upwards to try and compete against the Aventador with a £300k plus new car. ....
Don't make me 
Did you not learn from my previous post"The 650S chews up and spits out a 458" Steve Sutcliffe.
650S prices will remain strong and the fewer out there the better as far as I'm concerned
: What you meant to say was - "They took on Ferrari in the mid V8 segment and murdered them, and are now making a plucky assault on Porsche, enhancing future residuals
Edited by GRBF430F1 on Wednesday 1st April 18:35
Gassing Station | McLaren | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff