RE: Temporary speed limits at the Nurburgring
Wednesday 8th April 2015
Another week, another Nurburgring controversy. After a round-table meeting, the German racing authority (the DMSB) has lifted the ban on top-class racing cars at the Nurburgring, which was introduced after the fatal accident last month.
125mph limit for Flugplatz nowBut the conditions are severe. Speed limits will be introduced and enforced at key points of the Nordschleife. Flugplatz (the site of the previous accident), Schwedenkreuz and Antoniusbuche all receive a 200km/h (125mph) limit, with speed on the Dottinger Hohe straight restricted to 250km/h (155mph).
Lap times appear around 20 seconds slowerHe continued, "These could include comprehensive changes in the regulations as well as possible construction work on the track."
Temporary speed limits at the Nurburgring
The ban on the top classes has been lifted for this weekend's six-hour race - but at what cost?
125mph limit for Flugplatz now
All VLN cars, from the lowliest privateer Mini to the Scuderia Glickenhaus SCG003, run a GPS datalogger with live data transfer to race control. This system has been in place for two years to enforce the temporary double-yellow Code 60 speed limits that are introduced for accidents mid-race. Now an addition to the software will automatically flag cars exceeding the new limits too. Time penalties will be incurred by offending drivers, and even fines and exclusions could be considered for repeat offences.
In addition to these draconian methods, the GT3 classes will have a further five per cent power restriction and the spectator zones at Flugplatz, Schwedenkreuz, Metzgesfeld and Pflanzgarten will be limited or even closed.
These measures are short-term rather than a permanent fixture. So says DMSB chairman, Hans-Joachim Stuck. "We have decided to implement these measures to allow these cars to race again [this weekend], albeit with certain restrictions. At the same time, the DMSB will install an expert commission to search for mid-term solutions that can be implemented after the season."
Lap times appear around 20 seconds slower
While the speed limits might drastically restrict the top tier of competitors, only the restriction of 200km/h at Antoniusbuche and Schwedenkreuz will affect the lap times of the production classes.
AMG already had a private test day on the Nordschleife booked for today (see photos) with both factory and customer cars invited to test. Wristwatch lap timings would suggest that cars obeying the restrictions are predictably lapping slower than before, with lap times on the Nordschleife increasing by around 20 seconds.
This weekend it's the N24 qualifying race, and with 70 cars (including a dozen factory-supported teams) set to join the grid for Sunday's event something had to be done to let them run. Is this the right solution though? Over to you.
Discussion
philshaq said:
Surely just move the spectators? Cars crash all the time, it sounds like an unavoidable situation in the first instance but could easily be avoided by not having people watching from there.
No, this.By definition a race is for cars to go as fast as possible, over a set distance / time. If you deviate from this it is a procession.
AndyAlfa18 said:
Please leave, you've embarrassed yourself.
??? why has he embarrassed himself ???You need spectators, yes, but you also need cars to race flat out, not being restricted to the same speeds as a/ it will be a procession as stated above and b/ will no doubt cause more issues with drivers braking where they normally wouldn't and catching others out.
Surely the best idea is to make stronger/higher/more suitable fencing in potential danger areas.
Surely just banning spectators from spectating at key points (i.e. outside of certain corners), like they already try to enforce in rallying the world over, would drastically reduce an already very small possibility of anything else occurring? Additional spectator marshals would surely be more workable than what they have planned?
From what I understand spectators at the Ring regularly sit where they shouldn't (i.e. in the 'no-mans-land' areas between fences), is it not a spectator enforcement issue rather than an inherent risk due to speed on the track itself?
I nearly got wiped out by a Formula Ford that vaulted the armco at Castle Combe once, in ten years I had never seen a car come close to hitting the barrier where I was stood, let alone vaulting it. Freak accidents can and will happen regardless of what you put in place.
From what I understand spectators at the Ring regularly sit where they shouldn't (i.e. in the 'no-mans-land' areas between fences), is it not a spectator enforcement issue rather than an inherent risk due to speed on the track itself?
I nearly got wiped out by a Formula Ford that vaulted the armco at Castle Combe once, in ten years I had never seen a car come close to hitting the barrier where I was stood, let alone vaulting it. Freak accidents can and will happen regardless of what you put in place.
turbobungle said:
Surely the best idea is to make stronger/higher/more suitable fencing in potential danger areas.
Does such a thing exist? The vast majority of fencing in motorsport across the world is debris fencing, it's not designed to physically stop a car going through it. Actual catch fencing is normally used at ovals where a car is likely to hit it whilst parallel to it...nothing is going to stop a car 15ft off the ground travelling at 80mph going straight at it without killing the driver.Edited by ukaskew on Wednesday 8th April 16:57
Mermaid said:
La source hair pin cold be rejigged too while we are at it, and Eau rouge....
Tongue in cheek, I hope...We don't get speed limits at Eau Rouge (or any other corner on any other circuit) because drivers (generally) know how to moderate their speed to a point where they can get round. If cars improve to a point where a corner speed starts to get excessive, the corner is usually "re-profiled"(eg, Imola, after 1994)
Its always going to be possible for a car to leave the track on a corner, mostly due to driver error, but other aspects come into play too.
However, for a car to leave the track on a straight without a fundamental design fault (Merc CSRs at LeMans 1999), mechanical failure or other external intervention, there HAS to be something wrong with the track.
A speed limit at that point in the track is simply farcical - the only solution is to fix the track so that any class of car that races there can take it as fast as the driver cares
The only other possible alternative is to ensure that whatever car is running there is not capable of becoming airborne at any speed that its capable of, even when assisted by a rise in the track, or other aerodynamic influence, such as slipstreaming (it'll be easier to change the track)
Mermaid said:
supertouring said:
djstevec said:
Never been to the 'Ring, but how hard would it be to re-profile that section of track to lose the crest?
How very dare you! 
I know I know!Nigel_O said:
However, for a car to leave the track on a straight without a fundamental design fault (Merc CSRs at LeMans 1999), mechanical failure or other external intervention, there HAS to be something wrong with the track.
A speed limit at that point in the track is simply farcical - the only solution is to fix the track so that any class of car that races there can take it as fast as the driver cares
The only other possible alternative is to ensure that whatever car is running there is not capable of becoming airborne at any speed that its capable of, even when assisted by a rise in the track, or other aerodynamic influence, such as slipstreaming (it'll be easier to change the track)
Er, the AirMerc incidents at Le Mans some years ago WERE caused by design flaws (aero problems served with an unhappy coincidence of odd suspension dynamics, IIRC - stand to be corrected by those in the know), since pretty much resolved. The track was the track - same as it had been in testing, practice and quali - as is the case at the 'Ring. A speed limit at that point in the track is simply farcical - the only solution is to fix the track so that any class of car that races there can take it as fast as the driver cares
The only other possible alternative is to ensure that whatever car is running there is not capable of becoming airborne at any speed that its capable of, even when assisted by a rise in the track, or other aerodynamic influence, such as slipstreaming (it'll be easier to change the track)
If, somehow, the track had developed some capability for material self-metamorphosis, and could seemingly change from testing to race, then you may have a point. Otherwise, the drivers and engineers can claim no surprise about the topographic or material challenge - it is what it is. If we don't like the pointy, jaggedy bits topside on Mount Everest ("Whoa, I never knew it was that pointy, someone should do something..."), I doubt the Nepalese will listen too long to calls to 'smooth it out a bit...'. I dare say they'd suggest improvements to equipment and competency instead
The 'Ring incident at Flugplatz was, largely, a car problem (we cannot, yet, eliminate other factors, right foot included); it wasn't capable of navigating that section of track, on that lap, at whatever speed it was going without an undesirable and seemingly unpredicted outcome. We don't know if the car hit debris, had a suspension malfunction, or whatever, that caused enough nose-up that lap for calamity...or, whether, as John Derry found in the skies above Farnborough in 1952, JM tried hard enough on that occasion such that he went outside the envelope.
I've little doubt that had JM tried, say, Schwedenkreuz beyond a certain point on the envelope, there'd have been negative consequences there as well, to say the least. Not because the car might fly, but because there's always a limit of one kind of another. The job of engineers and drivers is to develop/change the car so that breaches of the envelope are more (rather than less)predictable, and that the consequences are more (rather than less) manageable. If you know that car performance is now so strong that you will get so much speed up the hill to Flugplatz that it will launch...well, you'd better make sure that you know how the car will fly...or, one way or another, put the performance back inside the envelope.
Point is, the DMSB solution is the best option to keep racing for those us of who can find no substitute for the 'Ring. It will allow them (and the teams, drivers and makers) some time to properly consider what form modern racing (whether it be 'Elite' and/or more 'Clubby') on the 'Ring should take.
But...with arguable exceptions for run-off, spectator areas, monitoring, safety access (etc, etc...), the track is the track.
djstevec said:
Mermaid said:
supertouring said:
djstevec said:
Never been to the 'Ring, but how hard would it be to re-profile that section of track to lose the crest?
How very dare you! Unfortunately cars get faster and tracks need to change or stop use. The nordschleife stoped being used for F1 long ago, other tracks have changed, some beyond all recognition. At some point you need to accept that you either change or stop racing a particular class. Racing is dangerous, but drivers will not, and should not, take all risks no matter what. When it gets to the point where the likelihood of a crash at a speed which is likely to be deadly becomes too high then you need to change or stop. It looks like the nordschleife has reached this point for another class. It has to change or stop the race. You can't keep going no matter what.
SteveSteveson said:
And remove the Le Sarthe hair pins whilst we are at it.
Unfortunately cars get faster and tracks need to change or stop use. The nordschleife stoped being used for F1 long ago, other tracks have changed, some beyond all recognition. At some point you need to accept that you either change or stop racing a particular class. Racing is dangerous, but drivers will not, and should not, take all risks no matter what. When it gets to the point where the likelihood of a crash at a speed which is likely to be deadly becomes too high then you need to change or stop. It looks like the nordschleife has reached this point for another class. It has to change or stop the race. You can't keep going no matter what.
The driver has the obligation to adapt the speed to the track. Everything else is BS. Unfortunately cars get faster and tracks need to change or stop use. The nordschleife stoped being used for F1 long ago, other tracks have changed, some beyond all recognition. At some point you need to accept that you either change or stop racing a particular class. Racing is dangerous, but drivers will not, and should not, take all risks no matter what. When it gets to the point where the likelihood of a crash at a speed which is likely to be deadly becomes too high then you need to change or stop. It looks like the nordschleife has reached this point for another class. It has to change or stop the race. You can't keep going no matter what.
I hope it is indeed temporary.
I have a great concern that the Ring as we know it could be emasculated by a bunch of new regulations. Of course there is some danger there, and anyone who drives there should know that. I would think that car design restrictions ,plus some movement of spectators would do the job.
Speed limits on the Nurburgring....aaargh.
I have a great concern that the Ring as we know it could be emasculated by a bunch of new regulations. Of course there is some danger there, and anyone who drives there should know that. I would think that car design restrictions ,plus some movement of spectators would do the job.
Speed limits on the Nurburgring....aaargh.
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