Early Gloster Meteor vs ME262

[Dr Jekyll]

Which would come off best in a dogfight? My money is on the ME262 but it's a guess based on what I've read about comparative performance.

[Eric Mc]

The 262 had a nominally better performance all round but it was borderline reliable. You might win the odd dog fight in a 262 but you would probably have a serious inflight engine emergency every ten or so flights.

[V8 Fettler]

Both pilots would avoid a dogfight, swooping passes from height then disappear.

[Simpo Two]

Swooping passes work on an unsuspecting enemy or something forced to fly straight and level (ie bomber), but not an alert agile enemy - which is what a dogfight is. So they can either fight, albeit with larger turning radii than slower craft, or one can try to run for home.

There was plenty of jet v jet action in Korea and Vietnam. It's just different from WW2.

[MartG]

The Korean War is a bit of an oddity as far as air to air combat is concerned - the only major conflict where jet fighters fought each other but still using guns as their primary armament.

Of course by the time of the Korean War the Meteor was totally outclassed as a day fighter ( e.g. http://korean-war.commemoration.gov.au/stalemate-i... )

[Condi]

From memory the German fighter was substantially better in the air-frame, armament etc, but the engines were not up to the same standard as the Meteor. Probably due to the materials available at that stage of the war.

[Dr Jekyll]

The ME262 used an axial flow turbojet, while UK designers stuck to centrifugal flow for production engines on the basis that axial flow engines could not yet be made reliable enough. Probably, as you say, due to available materials.

[Camlet]

Very slightly off topic, but in the excellent book A Higher Call, ex Luftwaffe ace Franz Stigler (who was also an outstanding human being due to his heroic actions to protect a stricken B-17 over Germany) spoke at length about his time flying 262s towards the end of the war. The point about poor materials and engines which would dangerously fall apart was well made. What I didn't realise was just how incredible the 262 was for its time. Goodness knows what would have happened if the 262 had access to quality materials, and the Luftwaffe access to more 262s.

[V8 Fettler]

Simpo Two said:

Swooping passes work on an unsuspecting enemy or something forced to fly straight and level (ie bomber), but not an alert agile enemy - which is what a dogfight is. So they can either fight, albeit with larger turning radii than slower craft, or one can try to run for home.

There was plenty of jet v jet action in Korea and Vietnam. It's just different from WW2.

In the real world. the Meteor would fly with a couple of Mustangs, the latter for dogfighting. The 262 would fly with a couple of FW190s, the latter for dogfighting. Not quite certain what a Meteor would be doing over Germany in WW2.

Re: avoidance of dogfight, see P38s vs Zeros. Zero would attempt to entice P38 into twisting, turning dogfight, P38 would typically avoid and use superior altitude and diving speed to achieve victory.

[Dr Jekyll]

V8 Fettler said:

Not quite certain what a Meteor would be doing over Germany in WW2.

I fully appreciate that Meteors didn't meet ME262s in combat. Hence my question as to what, hypothetically, might have happened if they had.

Whilst we are on the subject, how would the P80 do? Similar performance to the ME262 and technically in service in WW2.

[V8 Fettler]

Camlet said:

Very slightly off topic, but in the excellent book A Higher Call, ex Luftwaffe ace Franz Stigler (who was also an outstanding human being due to his heroic actions to protect a stricken B-17 over Germany) spoke at length about his time flying 262s towards the end of the war. The point about poor materials and engines which would dangerously fall apart was well made. What I didn't realise was just how incredible the 262 was for its time. Goodness knows what would have happened if the 262 had access to quality materials, and the Luftwaffe access to more 262s.

The Americans would have built as many Mustangs and trained as many pilots as were needed to win the air war over Western Europe. Might have taken a bit longer if the 262 was more reliable and if there were more 262s, but the end result is the same.

[davepoth]

Dr Jekyll said:

I fully appreciate that Meteors didn't meet ME262s in combat. Hence my question as to what, hypothetically, might have happened if they had.

Whilst we are on the subject, how would the P80 do? Similar performance to the ME262 and technically in service in WW2.

It was a step forward from the Meteor and 262 - it shared an engine with the Vampire. So you would probably be looking at improved performance. The USAF kept the P80 until Korea.

[RizzoTheRat]

I'm guessing Eric "Winkle" Brown would have been one of the first people to fly both, and he reckons the 262 was way faster and handled better, but the engines were a bit flakey with a life of about 24 hours. I'd recommend his book "Wings on my sleeve" to anyone interested in aviation.

[Ginetta G15 Girl]

davepoth said:

It was a step forward from the Meteor and 262 - it shared an engine with the Vampire. So you would probably be looking at improved performance. The USAF kept the P80 until Korea.

Not really. Straight wing - about the same performance as a Meteor 4.

[Ginetta G15 Girl]

Simpo Two said:

Swooping passes work on an unsuspecting enemy or something forced to fly straight and level (ie bomber), but not an alert agile enemy

High speed slashing attacks are exactly what you do against an enemy who can generate large degrees of nose angle.

What you do not do is try to turn with him/her - that way you get dead tout suite.

It's all about keeping your energy high and not fighting on your opponent's terms.

[IanMorewood]

Same altitude same speed head on approach the Meteor would in my opinion be the winner as the higher muzzle speed of the 20mm canon should allow you better accuracy at range and your not so worried about using all your ammo.

Once you start twisting and turning though the 262's better wing and heavy hitting power put that in the driving seat. As it would be in any engagement disengagement encounter.

Obviously any aircraft with an altitude or speed advantage comes into the engagement in a better situation, hence most 262's where lost as they where in final approach even to aircraft that they significantly outclassed in normal flight.

[Simpo Two]

V8 Fettler said:

In the real world. the Meteor would fly with a couple of Mustangs, the latter for dogfighting. The 262 would fly with a couple of FW190s, the latter for dogfighting.

Bizarre.

Ginetta G15 Girl said:

High speed slashing attacks are exactly what you do against an enemy who can generate large degrees of nose angle.

Yebbut the scenario was two jet fighters, ie of similar performance.

[Tango13]

I'd put my money on the better pilot.

Whilst the ME262 was better I doubt it had enough of an edge to allow an average pilot to prevail against an excellent pilot in a Meteor.

[V8 Fettler]

Simpo Two said:

V8 Fettler said:

In the real world. the Meteor would fly with a couple of Mustangs, the latter for dogfighting. The 262 would fly with a couple of FW190s, the latter for dogfighting.

Bizarre.

There is a general misconception that the Me262 was an air superiority fighter, it wasn't. It was a bomber destroyer. The 262 was particularly vulnerable when taking off and landing, see "Rat Scramble" as an example of the RAF exploiting this. The Germans countered by providing escorts (generally FW190s) to dogfight the Allied dogfighters whilst the 262 took off or landed.

[Simpo Two]

V8 Fettler said:

There is a general misconception that the Me262 was an air superiority fighter, it wasn't. It was a bomber destroyer. The 262 was particularly vulnerable when taking off and landing, see "Rat Scramble" as an example of the RAF exploiting this. The Germans countered by providing escorts (generally FW190s) to dogfight the Allied dogfighters whilst the 262 took off or landed.

You're correct in that the only time the Allies could really shoot down a 262 was during take-off and landing (when its speed advantage had gone) - so these later had to be covered by more conventional fighters for protection. But your statement 'The 262 would fly with a couple of FW190s' implied that both types flew together as an attacking force. That wouldn't work for the same reason that Me109s tied to He111s didn't work - the fighters lost the advantage of speed and height.