Urgent advice over pointing getting threatened by contractor

[Charlie Boy]

Hi Guys I need some fairly urgent advice regards some pointing we've had done by a local contractor who actually has a very good reputation. Basically we've had the front of a terrace house cleaned and re pointed this work we’re happy with. As an add on we had some small side and roadside walls re pointed to match the colour and its this pointing we have an issue with. It’s not the style that’s the problem as its a functional joint as its quite exposed but the fact the mortar looks lumpy and the lumps seem to be unmixed sand. Originally when I brought this up they said it can happen because the sand can come from different pits and it can look different now they say it doesn't matter as there is 20mm deep of mortar and it will hold up until we’re gone! I have asked a surveyor to give an opinion and he seems to think its lazy mixing of the mortar which the contractor disputes. As it stands we are withholding the payment for the walls until we are sure the mortar is ok but have had a threatening phone call from the contractor saying they won’t remove the scaffolding until we pay and they will bring in debt collectors etc

So my question is to any brickies, surveyors etc does this look acceptable from looking at the pictures? and are there any places that specialise in testing mortar etc that I can get advice from preferably London based?
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url]|http://thumbsnap.com/aMILCWh0[/url]

[p1stonhead]

Is this a cash in hand job of have you agreed to terms?

[blueg33]

He will need a court order to send a debt collector (I think), but he may send the "boys" round.

[Charlie Boy]

No cash in hand all quoted for and Vat paid. The scaffolding is outsourced to another company so could probably just call them and ask for it to be removed.

Anyway are we being fussy and unreasonable or do people think we should hold our ground?

[Spudler]

It's not a lazy mix, it's the wrong mix.
They've used plastering sand instead of building sand.

[Charlie Boy]

Spudler said:

It's not a lazy mix, it's the wrong mix.
They've used plastering sand instead of building sand.

Oh crap how can you tell? They keep telling me their the experts and what do we know etc etc

[Spudler]

Charlie Boy said:

Oh crap how can you tell? They keep telling me their the experts and what do we know etc etc

Size of the grit, to big.
Pointed like that it's very porous.
Ideally it should have been struck either with a 'pointing trowel' or 'bucket handle', not rubbed up with a piece of batten/hessian/stiff brush or whatever they used.
Wouldn't have been so bad had they used building sand.

[Charlie Boy]

I'll have to ask them why the didn't use a handle or trowl to finish it but they did say they would do a flush finish so maybe that's what we got. The yellow lumps are soft sand not sure what other sand they used in the mix.

[Renovation]

Yes that is a flush finish.

I'd have guessed at sharp sand but as you say the lumps are soft sand rather than grit - I guess not.

What happens if you rub a stone along it - is the sand exposed ?

If so then I wouldn't accept it as it'll look awful in a year or two.

[stuart313]

Spudler said:

It's not a lazy mix, it's the wrong mix.
They've used plastering sand instead of building sand.

Without trying to sound a dick, I have never seen a plasterer mix sand with anything.

The job was probably done on a Monday, have you seen the state brickies, and more importantly brickies labourers get into on a Sunday afternoon. They all work on Saturdays and Sunday is the only chance they get to go and get smashed.

Never have anything built on a Monday.

[Simpo Two]

Charlie Boy said:

had a threatening phone call from the contractor saying they won’t remove the scaffolding until we pay and they will bring in debt collectors etc

Well that's toss for start because (1) if as said the scaffolding is subbed out the builder will be paying for its hire (2) one cannot simply send 'debt collectors' round.

That kind of bullying would get my back up instantly - but ultimately can work in your favour.

If you want to be playful you could say 'No problem, leave the scaffolding there, if it's still there in a month we'll assume you don't want it and sell it on eBay. Then we'll get the work done properly and sue you for the difference. Now, do you want to fix it or not?'.

[steveobes]

Looks like he`s used sharp sand used for screeding floors.

[ShiningWit]

Are the lumps sand which crumbles or grit? Grit is ok as it's tough, sand not.
Does the finish have to match anything else? Generally a tooled finish makes it smooth and more durable, finished like that it isn't so, but still acceptable.
It's possible they've used poor quality sand or maybe it was frozen when mixed in....

[darren f]

It looks like sharp sand has been used to me, or very badly graded or frozen building sand. Either way the mortar should be smooth enough to take some 'tooling' to point it up, there is no way that mix is ever going to provide a decent finish. The fact it's flushed up is also a concern- are you sure it was 'raked back' (the old mortar chopped out for a depth of 10-15mm) prior to being pointed up? If you find there is only a few mm of new stuff in the joint it could reinforce your grievance of 'poor workmanship'.

As regards getting suitable advice, it's a question of how far you want go really. If it's a quite a few ££s at stake, maybe search up a RICS accredited building surveyor for advice?

[darren f]

It looks like sharp sand has been used to me, or very badly graded or frozen building sand. Either way the mortar should be smooth enough to take some 'tooling' to point it up, there is no way that mix is ever going to provide a decent finish. The fact it's flushed up is also a concern- are you sure it was 'raked back' (the old mortar chopped out for a depth of 10-15mm) prior to being pointed up? If you find there is only a few mm of new stuff in the joint it could reinforce your grievance of 'poor workmanship'.

As regards getting suitable advice, it's a question of how far you want go really. If it's a quite a few ££s at stake, maybe search up a RICS accredited building surveyor for advice?

[dickymint]

Hard to tell from the photos (my stty laptop) but are you sure the lumpy bits are sand and not clumps of Lime? To me it does look like a "lazy mix"! Possibly no plasticiser used and/or not mixed thoroughly. Or maybe the builder added a shovel full of Lime and again not mixed thoroughly?

[Spudler]

stuart313 said:

Without trying to sound a dick, I have never seen a plasterer mix sand with anything.

The job was probably done on a Monday, have you seen the state brickies, and more importantly brickies labourers get into on a Sunday afternoon. They all work on Saturdays and Sunday is the only chance they get to go and get smashed.

Never have anything built on a Monday.

We'll you've managed it.

You obviously don't work in the building industry otherwise you would have seen plastering/sharp sand.
What do you think is mixed with cement to render walls with?

[TA14]

stuart313 said:

Spudler said:

It's not a lazy mix, it's the wrong mix.
They've used plastering sand instead of building sand.

Without trying to sound a dick, I have never seen a plasterer mix sand with anything.

A quick search on Google and Google Images for plastering sand may help you

[Charlie Boy]

Thanks for the reply's guys!

I can get a company called Sandberg to inspect and test the mortar http://www.sandberg.co.uk/laboratories/chemistry/m...

Guessing it wont be cheap exercise to do that though.

I've taken a few more pictures, the sandy lumps or lime can easily be rubbed out. I assume these lumps will eventually get washed away buy the rain leaving a swiss cheese look to the pointing. The contractors have said they guarantee their work for 10years against if falling out.

[RichB]

either way, there's still a lot of grit in that pointing.