RE: Smart motorways are dumb: Tell Me I'm Wrong

RE: Smart motorways are dumb: Tell Me I'm Wrong

Author
Discussion

Matthen

1,285 posts

150 months

Sunday 19th April 2015
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whyohwhy said:
I can see the point with a well managed variable speed limit system. But getting rid of the hard shoulder is madness.

If you look at the number of lorries that are unable to avoid broken down vehicles on the hard shoulders that still exist what hope is there of them avoiding a stopped vehicle in a live lane.

Ridiculous idea that can only have come from someone who doesn't drive.
Never driven on a 3 lane A road? Its the same idea - except with red Xs telling you the lanes closed and to move instead of just happening upon a breakdown/accident. The only area that ive seen that ever concerns me is a section of the M1, where there is no hard shoulder permanently, and a fence right up against the crash barrier. Could end very badly breaking down there.

Hackney

6,810 posts

207 months

Sunday 19th April 2015
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TheFinners said:
Imagine how much better the roads would be if all the money spent on cameras, unnecessarily cutting speed limits and smart motorways was spent on the real police instead (you know, the ones that are actual human beings). The standards of driving would be much better and money lost from dishing out speed fines to those doing 80 on a clear, dry and quiet motorway could be regained dealing with all of the tw@t's who sit in the middle lane playing with their phones.
This.

Speed cameras are such a blunt instrument.
Actual police can spot a badly driven car at under the speed limit and check for any number of offences.

My twopenneth on the M25 last week I passed under two gantry signs showing 50 and then 40.
I can honestly say I have never seen the motorway so clear as when I passed under those two gantries. 4 lanes, a mile ahead of me, empty.

king arthur

6,538 posts

260 months

Sunday 19th April 2015
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Matthen said:
Never driven on a 3 lane A road? Its the same idea - except with red Xs telling you the lanes closed and to move instead of just happening upon a breakdown/accident. The only area that ive seen that ever concerns me is a section of the M1, where there is no hard shoulder permanently, and a fence right up against the crash barrier. Could end very badly breaking down there.
The section of M25 from Enfield to the M11 is like that too. All Lane Running it's called. Several times I've been flying around there and come across a vehicle stranded in lane one with absolutely no warning on the overhead signs. It wouldn't be quite so bad if there were more refuge areas but they've only seen fit to put one every two miles or so it seems.

king arthur

6,538 posts

260 months

Sunday 19th April 2015
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For the record, I agree wholeheartedly with this article. The way these sections of motorway are managed is appalling. Limits for absolutely no reason, signs telling us there is "congestion" when I can see no more than three or four vehicles in front of me, phantom "incidents", all this adds up to mounting distrust of the whole system.

I was coming down the M1 at night recently, and signs started saying "Lane closure - slow down" and then the signs telling us to move right out of lane one, then lane two, then it was down to one lane. Most drivers obediently moved across, obeying the red 'X's. And then - nothing! Just the derestriction sign. All that queuing for nothing, another few minutes of my life I won't get back.

The question is, who is responsible for all this? Who is accountable for the amount of time we all waste obeying these limits and lane closures?

All that jazz

7,632 posts

145 months

Sunday 19th April 2015
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The whole MIDAS thing needs to be scrapped and rethought. That's the cause of the 60-50-40-40-40-nothing. The M621 climbing up out of Leeds onto the M1 southbound often has 50-50-50 across the gantries all night and day despite there being absolutely nothing there. A womble on a truck forum said that it's often slow moving abnormal loads that set them off as the induction loops in the road 'see' their speed and assume it's congestion across all lanes and automatically set the speed reduction. As a trucker myself this explanation makes a lot of sense as heading southbound from Stourton on either the M621 or the M1 it's a fairly steep climb in a fully loaded truck and you're often down to 40-50mph. You don't start to pick up speed again til it splits into 5 lanes at the brow of the hill but the induction loops are way back down the road on the hill itself, so once again it's a strong case of poor implementation.

Talksteer

4,843 posts

232 months

Sunday 19th April 2015
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TheFinners said:
Imagine how much better the roads would be if all the money spent on cameras, unnecessarily cutting speed limits and smart motorways was spent on the real police instead (you know, the ones that are actual human beings). The standards of driving would be much better and money lost from dishing out speed fines to those doing 80 on a clear, dry and quiet motorway could be regained dealing with all of the tw@t's who sit in the middle lane playing with their phones.
You do know that only 100 people died on the motorway network last year.

Accidents tend to happen in the same places and that many of these places are similar to other places that also have high death rates. Given that the driving population is pretty much homogeneous and similarly trained across the road network that is essentially telling us that its the roads that make the difference.The lowest hanging fruit by miles in road safety is road design, particularly on country roads.

Improved driver training doesn't appear to have had a great contributor on the large reductions in road fatalities, most notable it has had bugger all effect on the accident rate of young drivers, despite the test getting more difficult. The most effective thing in reducing their propensity to have accidents has been simply pricing them off the roads.

Police on motorways in marked cars are essentially moving 70 mph speed restrictions, I don't think they assist traffic flow. What's more reductions in traffic police numbers have coincided with reductions in the casualty rates, indicating that they are not the best investment for increasing traffic flow or road safety.

anonymous-user

53 months

Sunday 19th April 2015
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king arthur said:
For the record, I agree wholeheartedly with this article. The way these sections of motorway are managed is appalling. Limits for absolutely no reason, signs telling us there is "congestion" when I can see no more than three or four vehicles in front of me, phantom "incidents", all this adds up to mounting distrust of the whole system.

I was coming down the M1 at night recently, and signs started saying "Lane closure - slow down" and then the signs telling us to move right out of lane one, then lane two, then it was down to one lane. Most drivers obediently moved across, obeying the red 'X's. And then - nothing! Just the derestriction sign. All that queuing for nothing, another few minutes of my life I won't get back.

The question is, who is responsible for all this? Who is accountable for the amount of time we all waste obeying these limits and lane closures?
A control room oppo said elsewhere said:
This sort of thing does happen regularly because;.............

If the message sign on the gantry/cantilever says anything to do with "QUEUE" it has been set automatically by sensors in the c/way called MIDAS. (Motorway Incident Detection & Signalling - please go and google it) so you only need one of those ghost queues to start, probably caused by any number of things slowing traffic down temporarily, could be simple things like an animal running across the road. MIDAS checks each pad approx every 4 minutes, there needs to have been a reasonable number of vehicles having crossed it at a higher speed than is posted for it to reset itself. It will also only set speeds down to 40's (Unless other factors have been changed due to lowered speed limits in the area)

The other instance where speeds are set and nothing is there, can be due to many things again, but mostly because the location have been given incorrectly, or the incident has cleared somehow.
A couple of examples; We get a call for debris in the road, we HAVE to set signals, if we can see it from CCTV, we will set speeds and DEBRIS, otherwise it's 50's and "INCIDENT" that debris can get flicked to the h-s / central res/ or not even be in that location at all, we have no means of knowing until the location is checked.
This is the same for most incidents, we HAVE to set signals in the location given, these cannot be changed unless the area has been checked and the incident either confirmed (when signals may alter to closures etc) or cleared if no traced. As an example of this, we were given details of an RTC yesterday, saying between J2 - J3, M60 clockwise, the information came from one of the other emergency services, who'd got it via 999, this was for an overturned vehicle with injuries, we set signals for 50's INCIDENT between just prior J1 - J2 on the clockwise M60. We checked the cctv in the area but couldn't see anything (there are blind spots) meanwhile there's EVERY emergency service making for that location, we phoned the emergency service that had taken the original 999 call to get the informants tel number, they said they'd also got a similar sounding job at J21 of the M60, checking the cctv there we found the overturned vehicle off the c/way so the emergency services all had to be redirected, BUT we still had to check the original location given to make sure that it wasn't a coincidence before we could clear the first lot of signals.
So, in a nutshell, we HAVE to set signals if something is reported that could be in the running lanes. We can only set to the information given (until confirmed by either CCTV or HATO/Police patrol) Initial signals are always 50's INCIDENT / Animals / Pedestrians. This means that you could come across a full on multiple RTC blocking the whole motorway, or nothing at all. we can't alter the signals one way or the other until either the incident is confirmed or no traced.
So as professional drivers, if you see anything please call it in (on your hands free, unless you stop to assist) and use the markerpost numbers, even if you think that someone else has already called it in, you never know if they've got it right, and we will be able to reduce the number of signals set, as often they are J# to J#.
Same control room oppo said:
I totally agree with all that everyone has said about signals for roadworks, it's not ideal how they're done but at the moment it's what we have, let me explain if I can, but I can only speak about our own area.

Our area consists of 14 motorways in the NW, some long bits (M6, M56, M62, M60 etc) some short bits (a627m, M602, M57, M58 etc)
We normally have during the week 10 operators on the shift. 1 is the Team manager, who's busy will all the admin & crap that is required to do, 1 is the deputy TM, who checks all the logs prior to closing them to make sure everything is done, 2 people are working the radio channel deploying patrols /updating logs from the info passed by them, 2 people are attached as Incident coordinators, they make phone calls for anything relevant to live jobs, set/change/clear signals on the instructions of patrols, inform the Nation Traffic Information Centre about incidents that are likely to / or are affecting the live c/way, run separate channels for rolling blocks / major incidents.That leaves 4 operators to take/make phone calls. These can be from various sources, emergency services, gen public, SOS boxes, recovery companies, roadworks camera rooms. They also set any signals for jobs that come from any of these calls as they pass the log to the despatchers for patrols to be sent etc.
The 4 operators also have to take on the roadworks calls, they take all the information required to set it up, confirm that it doesn't clash with any others, then they have to; kill all the MIDAS pads throughout the roadworks so the "queues" can't automatically set because there are cones/contractors vehicles on them, they then have to change all the HDS on every signal throughout the roadworks (Highest Displayable Speed - normally 60 mph) to 10 mph less than any temp speed limit, or 50mph if no temp speed limit. The foreman (normally called the TSO) of the roadworks crew says they're ready for the signals, then the signals will be set for whatever lane closure is required.
  • [u]this is the problem bit[/u]*
The signals will put lane closures on, and will also automatically set secondary speeds on the signals prior, the more restrictive the lane closures are, the more signals set with a reducing speed setting (The system will only allow a max on 20 mph drops in speed)
Now the TSO sees the signals, and starts to put out the hard signage (ie the 1 mile, 800yds, 600yds, 400yds,200yds countdowns) once these are out, they will actually start to close lanes etc.
Meanwhile, back in the control room, if this is a sliproad closure, or a full c/way closure, the operator has to make 5 phone calls to inform various services that need to know, so they can plan around the closure. fire / ambo / TM of patrols in that area / NTIC (so it goes onto traffic England website- then the media work from this) and also click the log across to the police.
All this can take 15 mins to do. We often get anywhere between 45 - 60 roadworks jobs between 8pm - 10 pm, you don't have time to breath! All this with 4 operators (usually 1 of the I/C's will help if the radio is calm (never use the 'Q' word!) & often the deputy TM, but you get my drift about the workload) still taking the 'normal' calls as well.
So, the roadworks finally are on, the TSO then calls in this information, and the signals are turned off as full hard signage & traffic management are out.
When he's ready to remove them, normally in the early hours of the morning, he then calls up for the signals to be reset, which they are. He clears all the cones etc, so no lanes are actually closed, then will go around to clear the hard signage, once that's done only then will he call in to have the signals etc cleared and everything put back to normal, so you often get the time between the cones being off and him calling for the signals to be cleared with lanes showing closed, but the closure has been lifted
Yes it could certainly be better, ideas have been put forward, but there are drawbacks, so is still under review.
Watch yourselves guys, because if the signals show a red x, don't go through it, even if the closures are in, the police WILL book you for it if they see you.
Speeds, up in our area, we don't have mandatory speeds on matrix (yet!) Although certain stretches of roadworks do have mandatory speed limits.
The longest with a 50mph mandatory speed limit is approx 9 miles long (M60 - M62 for smart motorways) at 70 mph it would take 7.7mins, at 50 mph it will take 10.8mins, hardly worth getting booked for.
Maybe that answers a bit ?


Edited by anonymous-user on Sunday 19th April 18:24

Pantherfocus

29 posts

113 months

Sunday 19th April 2015
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I have a fundamental problem with the idea of cameras replacing the police, but accept they're there and abide by the displayed speed limit accordingly, when I have the misfortune of traversing such sections of Motorway. What annoys me more is a) the fact that millions has been spent on this and in at least one section of the M25 (around Clacket Lane services), the road surface is a mess and causes severe tramlining, b) hard shoulders are the most important safety measure of a motorway (along with Armco) in my view, and c) more than once (as mentioned in the article) on a resent journey around the western side of the M25, I had to slam on numerous times as the speed limits dramatically and suddenly changed. Now I was always told, and try to maintain, that braking should only occur under the direst of circumstances on the motorway. I try to use a combination of engine braking and forward planning. Yet this actively promotes heavy braking.

So, Highways Agency, by all means enforce lower speed limits with cameras (we'll ignore the drinkers, tailgaters, middle lane hoggers and phone lovers for now) and by all means expect us to do the limit, but show some grace if you plan to change speed limits at the flick of a switch, and do something about making life safer for those who break down--cars don't predictably break down next to 'refuge areas'.

My rant over.

mikEsprit

827 posts

185 months

Sunday 19th April 2015
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When you allow the government to treat you like a sheep, invariably you get baaaaad results. (Sorry)

paranoid airbag

2,679 posts

158 months

Sunday 19th April 2015
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kambites said:
I think the principle is sound, the implementation just tends to be poor.
+1. In the interest of saying something positive... the managed section of the M4 near Newport is much nicer than comparable average speed sections. If you accept that there are times when it is useful to keep the general speed down, periodic cameras allow you to briefly speed up so lane discipline can happen, but stop the average speed "drifting". Average speeds seem to actively enforce awful lane discipline IME, someone's clearly in the wrong lane and know they are but being sensible would require potentially averaging 51 mph.

Active hard shoulders are naked myopic stupidity though. And yes: anyone in charge of any health & safety related activity, whatsoever, should be hit over the head with a copy of "the boy who cried wolf" 10,000 times or until they get the message. I'm honestly willing to defend H&S measures, but this is by far the biggest problem they suffer. It's incredibly arrogant.

anonymous-user

53 months

Sunday 19th April 2015
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Time to start making freedom of information requests to the Highways Agency to find how these things work and what triggers are needed.

The signs have pretty much lost all credibility because they are either obviously wrong or just make no sense and cause inconvenience.

Brummie Lad

62 posts

133 months

Sunday 19th April 2015
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Renovation said:
M42 has had this system for some time.

Each gantry seems to generate random numbers I've had 60 40 60 50 in a row, all within sight of each other, with no apparent reason.

I think there must be an incentive to limit the speed as it regularly reduces the limit to 60 or 50 outside of rush hour with very light traffic and the ordinary sections of M40 / M42 ahead were clear too.

Great in theory - rubbish in reality.
Spot on chap.

I drive the section of the M42 between J9 and J4 every day on the JLR contract. It's complete and utter bo**ocks. NSL 60 40 60 NSL 40, or my favourite in the space of 300yds - NSL 40 END.

People have fallen into 2 camps, either accelerating/slowing to the gantry or just plain ignoring them. I've nearly ploughed into the berk infront twice recently because they've piled on the anchors 20yds from a 40 (even though the road is clear) and not seen a 44ton HGV in their mirror, because they never use them.

Yes, they work if people can see the signs are relevant and most people can see that bowling along at 50 is better than stop/start/stop/start.

The problem lies in the word 'managed'. Most managers have got their heads so far up their brown canyon, they can't see their utter incompetance / irrelevance. I worked for a national company where phrases such as 'Fighting the bow wave of a back ended resource issue' were common management speak shoot I took 2 nanoseconds to accept redundancy.

Who exactly decides upon the gantry info ? Is it a 'manager' God forbid ? Is it Sharon from Tipton having a laugh before knockin off at 2 ? Is it Barry the work experience fookwit from Walsall Comp ?

Landshark

2,117 posts

180 months

Sunday 19th April 2015
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gottans said:
Time to start making freedom of information requests to the Highways Agency to find how these things work and what triggers are needed.

The signs have pretty much lost all credibility because they are either obviously wrong or just make no sense and cause inconvenience.
speedyguy, I sometimes wonder if people actually read what's posted in the thread before they post?? rolleyes

Gottans, if you read Speedyguys a couple of posts up, you might find the answer of how these things work saving your FOI request to Highways England!!!!

MrBurt

128 posts

145 months

Sunday 19th April 2015
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The concept is sound, it's the human factor that f***s it all up. Operators who are health and safety mad and close the near side lane when there's a car stopped on the hard shoulder etc etc. Risk adverse and backed up by CCTV to prosecute the 99% of people who are just trying to get some where safe but find their speed restricted for no reason other than some jobs worth at highways.
Motorists have no confidence in the signs any more, they just comply out of fear of prosecution, not due to the safety issue that may or may not exist ahead.

Talksteer

4,843 posts

232 months

Sunday 19th April 2015
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Quhet said:
Flipatron said:
Shame the UK cant just man up and build more motorways.
Where would you build them? I can't really think of anywhere where a new motorway would solve everything
Plenty of towns would benefit having a fully grade separated outer ring road, (e.g. beyond the urban areas, not the terrible urban dual carriageways we used to like to build). We do have relatively low numbers of motorway in comparison to our population or land area by comparison to the rest of europe.

From a land use perspective the UK is not particularly built up ironically the perception that it is is because most people rarely leave the road network.

From an economic point of view building a new motorway costs about half adding a single lane to an existing one, and only twice what it does to turn the motorway into a smart motorway.

anonymous-user

53 months

Sunday 19th April 2015
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Talksteer said:
Plenty of towns would benefit having a fully grade separated outer ring road, (e.g. beyond the urban areas, not the terrible urban dual carriageways we used to like to build). We do have relatively low numbers of motorway in comparison to our population or land area by comparison to the rest of europe.

From a land use perspective the UK is not particularly built up ironically the perception that it is is because most people rarely leave the road network.

From an economic point of view building a new motorway costs about half adding a single lane to an existing one, and only twice what it does to turn the motorway into a smart motorway.
Highways England delivery plan
https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/highway...

Download
Then do a word search on expressways, 4.1.1 and other bits describe the proposed delivery of what you are asking for ?

daytona365

1,773 posts

163 months

Sunday 19th April 2015
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Shame we can't have road networks like Germany, France, or even Spain.......No, but were British, we make do. Even though average speeds are less now than in the fking sixties ! Just like the shambolic housing situation. What we need are millions more people/drivers !

Armagreggon

43 posts

113 months

Monday 20th April 2015
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A collection of hearsay? Or real life feedback from people who are using the road network? Surely this feedback is valuable information which should be put to use in improving the system, I think Dan has highlighted a serious issue.

I agree the system in theory sounds good, but in practice it's bad.

In my experience the speed limits are erratic, quite often going nsl 50 40 60 40 nothing, and poorly enforced. Like others have said, I have quite often been driving along at the reduced 40mph limit with cars whizzing past at 70 or 80, trucks right up my arse, nobody seems to stick to them. They will often disappear without notification that the limit has returned to the national speed limit. I too have been through reduced speed sections for roadworks that didn't exist, only to come upon lane closures and workers shortly after in a national speed limit section. Im always very sceptical whenever a sign flashes up with information because about 75% if the time it's nonsense.

For me, smart motorways are currently dumb.

The current trend of policing by camera is infuriating. cameras don't necessarily catch bad drivers, they catch people speeding. What about the queues of cars in the outside lane, 2ft of each other's bumper, on the brakes every 3seconds.....

Sir Bagalot

6,463 posts

180 months

Monday 20th April 2015
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They're doing the M3 at the moment. J2 to J4a. Started six months ago. Not due to complete until December. That's December 2016! 20 months away yet. Why so fking long?

boxerTen

501 posts

203 months

Monday 20th April 2015
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BlueMR2 said:
Clearly, these areas are now so safe, when the roads are empty at night etc the speed limit should swing the other way, 100mph and let people get on with it.
+1. I have no objection to smart motorways if they are genuinely smart. The original 70 mph limit was set decades ago, and for when driving conditions were less than perfect, think night time, rain, lots of traffic, and a 70's era Ford Cortina on crossplys. In the 21st century if the smart motorway won't set a limit of say 130 mph on an empty motorway on a fine day - then its about revenue capture not safety.