RE: Smart motorways are dumb: Tell Me I'm Wrong
Discussion
zebedee said:
What is the difference in design between parapets for different speeds? Not that I don't believe you, never thought about it before, but I'm just interested in what actually changes.
In its simplest form, the force applied to the barrier beams and posts is greater. This would generally require stiffening up of the beams by closing the post centres up. As road speed increases, the barrier requirements change based on setback (distance from rib line / kerb to front of beam) and working width (amount of deflection of the barrier). If it were a new build, there's an opportunity to make more space for it, but the highway boundary in terms of motorways is fairly fixed.The issue is that on bridges, once you have a very stiff parapet system installed on an original edge beam, the weak link then becomes the edge beam itself and it wants to just pop off when a vehicle hits it. The solution is partial deck replacements, but that's a logistical nightmare (having just finished a deck replacement on the M5 that had to carry 3 + 2 narrow lanes whilst replacing the deck in sections, it's most certainly not an overnight job).
Central reserve systems are a little easier to sort; most are now concrete step barriers which are stronger in the event of a crossover, and require far less maintenance, with the byproduct being that a vehicle impact doesn't do a lot of damage, hence lane closures for repairs are minimised.
fuelracer496 said:
...Some seem to believe there's a blank chequebook that allows us to build new roads...
Well there does seem to be a blank chequebook for spurious rail schemes, so it's hard to criticise that opinion.Somehow, Crossrail got necessary funding, but (for example) the M1 isn't a priority.
Digga said:
ell there does seem to be a blank chequebook for spurious rail schemes, so it's hard to criticise that opinion.
Somehow, Crossrail got necessary funding, but (for example) the M1 isn't a priority.
I don't disagree, HS2 seems to buck the trend and be the bottomless pit of money scheme that doesn't appear to have to justify its existence to anybody. As it stands with the road network though, the austerity contracts (ASC - Asset Support Contract) were a means of keeping the network ticking over when funding wasn't as forthcoming. With the change from the Highways Agency to Highways England, the spending itself might not increase dramatically, but the pot of money is provided for a longer term, so programming of larger schemes becomes easier as there's less optimism bias to build in, and the risk of undertaking abortive work is reduced.Somehow, Crossrail got necessary funding, but (for example) the M1 isn't a priority.
The last 5 years or so have been quite turbulent in terms of contracts, spending, risk management etc. We have no idea what impact a change of government will have, but I'd hazard that the smart motorways will be the backbone of the motorway network over the next decade or so, as there's no other feasible way* to handle the increased traffic using the network.
- See drivel I waffled about before.
What's wrong with spending money on other parts of the road network which might just take some of the load off the motorway network. Especially on parts where people just hop on for one or two junctions.
The motorway network does not exist in isolation. It seems on some journeys that I make that so much has been done in the name of traffic calming, for want of a better catch all term to cover the impediment of progress in rural and suburban areas, that more and more travel a few extra miles to use a motorway route.
The motorway network does not exist in isolation. It seems on some journeys that I make that so much has been done in the name of traffic calming, for want of a better catch all term to cover the impediment of progress in rural and suburban areas, that more and more travel a few extra miles to use a motorway route.
Shaw Tarse said:
zebedee said:
Talksteer said:
Driving standards are only a really small part of it as famously we haven't let learner drivers on the motorway anyway!
But isn't that the point? We don't teach any kind of driving standard on the motorway. Learners aren't allowed on it (rightly) then they get a licence and are allowed to use it, even though all they have looked at (maybe) is some theory and rules. An additional motorway test would be a good idea, probably hard to police though.have motorway and night driving as standard on their national driving test.
If most or all the other countries in Europe have solved the "too far
away" supposed problem, why can't the UK ?
Even so, there could be a two level UK driving licence: all roads
and not motorways. There is some precedence for multi-level driving
licences - just look at HGV and PSV licences.
UK average driving standards are way way behind the rest of Europe.
More training and more testing is a very very good idea.
dcb said:
UK average driving standards are way way behind the rest of Europe.
More training and more testing is a very very good idea.
I'm not condoning it, but the UK (speshly the SE) is very congested and when someone does make a mistake the impact is going to be worse. The congestion does mean that people have to be more selfish to make any progress.
zebedee said:
What is the difference in design between parapets for different speeds? Not that I don't believe you, never thought about it before, but I'm just interested in what actually changes.
And don't forget about all your signs x heights etc, they have to be larger on wider roads and faster speeds so they can be read at a faster closing speed combined with an ageing population with ageing eyesight, There are enough problems now trying to squeeze larger x height signs on narrower verges with the required setbacks now and barriers to protect them if they are not "crash friendly'.Anyway we're now getting faster speeds mixed up with 'smart motorways' where reduced speed theoretically gets higher throughput due to a greater density of vehicles passing from what i gather due to reduced distances between vehicles.
hilly10 said:
I got 3 points on the m42 a month ago 55 with the gantry limits set at 50 . It's a money exercise with people being caught on their way to work therefor ability to pay. Call me cynical.
Can you provide paperwork for this? I expect Loon would like to know.(to date, apparently noone has been able to provide evidence of being done for less than speed limit + 10% + 2, i.e. 57 in your case)
zebedee said:
Shaw Tarse said:
The problem would be for those who don't live close to a motorway.
so what? If they want to learn how to use one, they could travel to one. If they think it is too far to travel to learn to use one, then they aren't interested in using them anyway.Willy Nilly said:
I'm not sure that UK driving standards are much worse than the places In have driven in Europe, Belgium and Luxembourg registered cars give me the willies.
I agree.Willy Nilly said:
The congestion does mean that people have to be more selfish to make any progress.
Not at all. Well, not if you define "progress" as getting to your destination. Perhaps if you define "progress" as getting past the people in front of you, then maybe.I'd consider myself a patient and reasonable person, but having to use the clusterf
k that is the managed motorway between Junction 13 and 6 has left me feeling totally pissed off.
60-40-CAUTION-50-CONGESTION-NSL-40-60-50. FFS, make your minds up!
My personal favourite was, for absolutely no reason I could see, the limit being changed from NSL to 40. I was very lucky to not be hit by a Stobart lorry when a Golf braked and changed lanes suddenly to avoid another sharply braking Sprinter in front of it, causing me to slam on the anchors.
Good job we were both paying attention.
I hate to whinge about the same old st, but it really is a complete shambles.
And don't even get me started on the penny-pinching death trap that is hard-shoulder running. Whoever thought that would be a good idea needs to take a long hard look at themselves.
k that is the managed motorway between Junction 13 and 6 has left me feeling totally pissed off.60-40-CAUTION-50-CONGESTION-NSL-40-60-50. FFS, make your minds up!
My personal favourite was, for absolutely no reason I could see, the limit being changed from NSL to 40. I was very lucky to not be hit by a Stobart lorry when a Golf braked and changed lanes suddenly to avoid another sharply braking Sprinter in front of it, causing me to slam on the anchors.
Good job we were both paying attention.I hate to whinge about the same old s
t, but it really is a complete shambles.And don't even get me started on the penny-pinching death trap that is hard-shoulder running. Whoever thought that would be a good idea needs to take a long hard look at themselves.
Well I've read the whole lot of comments on this topic so far & I agree with many of the criticisms of Smart Motorways, I must point out that before working for Highways England (née The Highways Agency) I was a courier for 8 years so I've learnt a thing or 2 about motorway driving.
Perhaps Dan Trent would like to spend a day or 2 in South Mimms Control Centre to see what really happens on the Traffic Management desk although I think a nice Friday late shift would be enough to have him screaming & running for home. Drop a line to our boss, Stewart Turner & ask him for a day or 2 in the Control Room, I'm sure he'd agree. Oh and please ask for Team 4!
Perhaps Dan Trent would like to spend a day or 2 in South Mimms Control Centre to see what really happens on the Traffic Management desk although I think a nice Friday late shift would be enough to have him screaming & running for home. Drop a line to our boss, Stewart Turner & ask him for a day or 2 in the Control Room, I'm sure he'd agree. Oh and please ask for Team 4!
NelsonP said:
So...how long is it after an animal has left the road and wandered back into the woods that the "Animals in road" signs are switched off?
Would love to know what the rules are on that one!
Not long enough sometimes - not a managed motorway, but after a loose horse got onto the A31 in Hampshire last year, police spent ages searching for it, couldn't find it and let the traffic go, whereupon two motorcyclists crashed into said horse and one of them died.Would love to know what the rules are on that one!
It's a blatant, obvious con - our beloved government shafting us poor bloody motorists yet again! This is why I always avoid motorways if at all possible... and somebody mentioned improved driver training today compared to donkey's years ago? Don't make me laugh... worst drivers on the roads (once causes of distraction and intoxication have been eliminated) are driving instructors. The standard of tuition these days is appalling, and it doesn't help that learners don't get near motorways, so nobody is ever taught a thing about motorway driving - any wonder lane discipline is so bloody piss poor! Hard shoulders being used as live lanes - madness! And of course, it's not just bad ideas - they're then incompetently implemented and badly mismanaged - of course they are, this is Her Majesty's Government we're talking about...
Dagz said:
Yay make a bit of money from the speeders! But lets be honest, is it really the speeders who cause accidents? As someone who spends a fair amount of time at alot of rtc's, i would suggest only 2 to 3 percent of them are a result of speed. The other 98 percent are a result of intoxication, inexperience, poor judgement, distraction, lack of attention or plain stupidness! But we cant catch that on a camera!!!! But neither can the bobby on the beat because there isnt any!!!
Exactly. The camera won't catch the drunk, the drugged, those on their phone, the driver having a furious row with their spouse/kids, the tailgaters, etc etc - it's about the slow, creeping, insidious control of the law-abiding general populace. Naturally, the continually varying speed limits, worries over 50/60 confusion etc, the constant speedometer-watching, actually means one is far less able to concentrate on the job of controlling one's vehicle in a safe and competent fashion.bri_the_fly said:
No, you are wrong... put two fingers up to Big Brother.
Dead right. Of course, the usual anti-conspiracy-theoriest sneering types are here with their sniggering remarks about tin foil hats and chemtrails, but they're the ones who're allowing us to get so royally screwed...grumpy52 said:
Build a motorway along the south coast between Dover and Portsmouth and this would reduce the flow on the southern M25 /M23 /M3 .
I live down here and to get anywhere along the coast to the west especially in a truck has to be done via the M25.
It's called the A27, and it's dual-carriageway for most/all of its length, even gets called M27 from Portsmouth to where it joins the old A31 the far side of Southampton.I live down here and to get anywhere along the coast to the west especially in a truck has to be done via the M25.
dcb said:
Superb idea, but never going to happen. Too many NIMBYs. For more fantasy roads that would save lives and save time,
but are never going to happen: http://www.abd.org.uk/bypass.htm
Doubt very much many of them would save lives. Some of the descriptions given already apply to existing roads - e.g. Worthing/Lancing/Arundel bypass. They also advocate using a railway trackbed in Staffordshire to enlarge the A34 - madness, when what we need to be doing is reopening those railways instead! There's very little need at all for new road-building schemes... we just need to be getting the daily commuters and freight onto the rails instead... and no, HS2 isn't the solution to that (or to anything, for that matter).but are never going to happen: http://www.abd.org.uk/bypass.htm
woof said:
I've seen this happen all the time on the M25 north section Junc 23-27. The limit will suddenly drop to 50mph (for no reason) and a few cars will get flashed then everyone behind them jumps on the brakes. Ripple effect a few miles back M11 junc - everything grinds to a halt. Happens all the time. Still yet to see any incident that has led to a drop in a speed limit. I'm convinced that most of the time it's for revenue generation.
Yep, it causes massive jams, and accidents happen in those jams, especially as people stuck in them for hours get very tired very easily, which is how I ended up rear-ending a Honda Accord in my 520i (luckily, at only walking pace, no damage done to either car except a broken bumper clip on mine), having averaged 1.5mph for the previous 4 1/2 hours - I was pretty much falling asleep at the wheel, but had nowhere to go, no way of getting off the motorway, just completely stuck. OK, I shouldn't have been on the road, I didn't want to be on the road, but I had no choice in the matter - and a combination of bad road design and bad road management led to a situation that should never have arisen. Given the cost to the economy of all this, one wonders why on earth something isn't being done about it, rather than wasting billions on further rollout of a failed scheme!NelsonP said:
So...how long is it after an animal has left the road and wandered back into the woods that the "Animals in road" signs are switched off?
Would love to know what the rules are on that one!
Once the Traffic Officers or Police radio in a "no trace", we have 2 minutes to turn the signs off.Would love to know what the rules are on that one!
NelsonP said:
So...how long is it after an animal has left the road and wandered back into the woods that the "Animals in road" signs are switched off?
Would love to know what the rules are on that one!
They've become pretty much a permanent fixture on the M6 n/b between 37 and 38 every night, and with good reason too. Couple of nights ago an AA recovery truck was the latest victim after hitting a deer just at the start of the elevated section. Entire front nearside was gone with bits of truck across all 3 lanes. Myself and a Megabus coach both had a very near miss only a few weeks ago in the exact same spot so I welcome the 'animals in road' signage remaining switched on there. It's a pity the nearest signage is about 5 miles back up the road just after J37 though - I'd imagine most drivers would have dismissed it as another case of crying wolf after not seeing anything in the next mile or so.Would love to know what the rules are on that one!
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