Is England shifting ever leftward?
Discussion
Watching the election unfold feels a bit Alice falling ever deeper into the rabbit hole...
Scotland used to be solidly Conservative. Scots had a stereotypical image that was careful with money and hard working. Typically conservative (small "c") and naturally Conservative (capital "C").
One way or another, Thatcher turned the Scots against the Conservatives. And so they fell into the arms of Labour. Until now: they've fallen into the arms of the SNP. The SNP's policies appear robustly more left wing than Labour, even under Miliband and Balls, but hidden behind the fig leaf of the word "progressive".
How did this happen? How did a country that had a reputation for hard work and being careful with money slide towards a mentality of state-provided welfare and high public spending? Is it simply a case of "if you show people that it is an easier life for them if someone else pays for it, they won't argue"?
If so, is England sliding the same way? The Thatcher years are long buried now, and still politically radioactive. Blair and Brown gave the public a taste of a left leaning welfare existence, and the Coalition's attempts to wean it off the welfare tit have not apparently been well received.
Conventional wisdom says that low unemployment, a stable and growing economy and recovery signs should see the Cons or the Coalition as a shoe-in. But that's not happening. Is it because England - or at least a voting majority of it - has acquired a taste for a lifestyle that can be provided at someone else's expense? And if so, how does any vaguely right of centre party reverse that trend (and no, the answer is not as simple as "vote UKIP", any more than it is "Vote Conservative")?
Scotland used to be solidly Conservative. Scots had a stereotypical image that was careful with money and hard working. Typically conservative (small "c") and naturally Conservative (capital "C").
One way or another, Thatcher turned the Scots against the Conservatives. And so they fell into the arms of Labour. Until now: they've fallen into the arms of the SNP. The SNP's policies appear robustly more left wing than Labour, even under Miliband and Balls, but hidden behind the fig leaf of the word "progressive".
How did this happen? How did a country that had a reputation for hard work and being careful with money slide towards a mentality of state-provided welfare and high public spending? Is it simply a case of "if you show people that it is an easier life for them if someone else pays for it, they won't argue"?
If so, is England sliding the same way? The Thatcher years are long buried now, and still politically radioactive. Blair and Brown gave the public a taste of a left leaning welfare existence, and the Coalition's attempts to wean it off the welfare tit have not apparently been well received.
Conventional wisdom says that low unemployment, a stable and growing economy and recovery signs should see the Cons or the Coalition as a shoe-in. But that's not happening. Is it because England - or at least a voting majority of it - has acquired a taste for a lifestyle that can be provided at someone else's expense? And if so, how does any vaguely right of centre party reverse that trend (and no, the answer is not as simple as "vote UKIP", any more than it is "Vote Conservative")?
Positively sinister ##.... Hope not but who knows, it's looking that way .. 
Doomed I tell yee...
Yet another one of Thatcher's chickens coming home to roost. She played her part.
Looking on the bright side .... ...
I'm still voting UKIP.
Make sweet FA difference as we are FFFFF .. finished..
All in my humble opinion of course.
Terms and conditions apply and other opinions are available.
##Did you see what I did there ? ....
Doomed I tell yee... Yet another one of Thatcher's chickens coming home to roost. She played her part.
Looking on the bright side ....
... I'm still voting UKIP.
Make sweet FA difference as we are FFFFF .. finished.. All in my humble opinion of course.
Terms and conditions apply and other opinions are available.
##Did you see what I did there ? ....
[quote=Greg66
Scotland used to be solidly Conservative. Scots had a stereotypical image that was careful with money and hard working. Typically conservative (small "c") and naturally Conservative (capital "C").
One way or another, Thatcher turned the Scots against the Conservatives.
[/quote]
When was this exactly?
in 79 Thatcher increased the Tory vote, even though they were already way behind Labour by then.
Scotland used to be solidly Conservative. Scots had a stereotypical image that was careful with money and hard working. Typically conservative (small "c") and naturally Conservative (capital "C").
One way or another, Thatcher turned the Scots against the Conservatives.
[/quote]
When was this exactly?
in 79 Thatcher increased the Tory vote, even though they were already way behind Labour by then.
I think we have been guided, sleepwalking, leftward as part of the EU project whether the government was allegedly aligned with it or against it. I think the population has woken up to this a little, but only after decades of it and a wave of immigrants intended to carry us over the final stretch. This reaction is being portrayed as right leaning/racism/outright Nazism by those on the left who can see some form of end in sight.
Maybe it is because the 'left' are rather over represented. Almost all of the small constituencies (in terms of population) are Labour strongholds (there are some in the 40000 pop, for instance in Wales). Almost all the largest constituencies are Conservative (ie the Isle of Wight, pop 111,000). Boundary changes have helped over the last few years, but The Lib Dems hissy fit ruined the last lot, and Labour will always squeal 'Gerrymandering'.
FF
FF
grumbledoak said:
I think we have been guided, sleepwalking, leftward as part of the EU project whether the government was allegedly aligned with it or against it. I think the population has woken up to this a little, but only after decades of it and a wave of immigrants intended to carry us over the final stretch. This reaction is being portrayed as right leaning/racism/outright Nazism by those on the left who can see some form of end in sight.
The left know they won't win long term via the ballot box so they use groups like common purpose to push a socialist agenda behind the scenes.
Greg66 said:
Conventional wisdom says that low unemployment, a stable and growing economy and recovery signs should see the Cons or the Coalition as a shoe-in. But that's not happening. Is it because England - or at least a voting majority of it - has acquired a taste for a lifestyle that can be provided at someone else's expense? And if so, how does any vaguely right of centre party reverse that trend (and no, the answer is not as simple as "vote UKIP", any more than it is "Vote Conservative")?
I think employment is only a partial read on the economic situation. The price for employment has been inflation adjusted wages falling and most economic gains have went to a very small proportion of society. Overall your average British worker is still worse off than they would have been in 2007.So, in response to your first question, set against that economic backdrop described above people are voting and I think the public view of wealth redistribution is that it's essential to an economically prosperous country. Ed Miliband and Labour are not so astute but the public mood has been swinging towards policies labour have historically championed. Similarly SNP in Scotland. For your average bloke on the street Conservatives policies have been very difficult to swallow (dropping the top tax rate, VAT increases etc.)
The second part of your question pertained to how conservatives can win support. I'd say think about improving the quality of living for ordinary working people probably making about 150-350 quid a week.
Do we think people in this bracket are likely to see themselves as getting a 'fair deal' in society currently or in the near future? When you think about the economic circumstances a lot of ordinary people find themselves in I'm surprised how pro-liberal capitalism the UK is really. One of the biggest changes I'd like to see is no more excuses about a rising tides eventually lifting all boats.
The left has spent decades forcing its values into the everyday language of politics, to the extent that a Conservative PM boasts about the "progressive" nature of his Government's policies. That the leader of a nominally right-wing party should use a term and appear to embrace an ideology originally Communist is an illustration of the degree to which mainstream political thought has become homogenised.
The meanings of some originally simple words appear to have been altered, too. Systems that take money from people only to return it if they beg in just the right way are trumpeted as "fair"; treatment that differs according to someone's age, gender, ethnicity, or religion is hailed as "equal".
Other concepts attract modifiers; notably "social".
Justice is one of these, a simple word meaning "that which is deserved". What, then, does "social justice" mean? "Social" in this term, must modify "justice", so "social justice" must mean "that which is not deserved". I'm not sure how this could be regarded positively.
Tellingly, such things are also described as "progressive".
The meanings of some originally simple words appear to have been altered, too. Systems that take money from people only to return it if they beg in just the right way are trumpeted as "fair"; treatment that differs according to someone's age, gender, ethnicity, or religion is hailed as "equal".
Other concepts attract modifiers; notably "social".
Justice is one of these, a simple word meaning "that which is deserved". What, then, does "social justice" mean? "Social" in this term, must modify "justice", so "social justice" must mean "that which is not deserved". I'm not sure how this could be regarded positively.
Tellingly, such things are also described as "progressive".
dudleybloke said:
grumbledoak said:
I think we have been guided, sleepwalking, leftward as part of the EU project whether the government was allegedly aligned with it or against it. I think the population has woken up to this a little, but only after decades of it and a wave of immigrants intended to carry us over the final stretch. This reaction is being portrayed as right leaning/racism/outright Nazism by those on the left who can see some form of end in sight.
The left know they won't win long term via the ballot box so they use groups like common purpose to push a socialist agenda behind the scenes.
The only public institutions that aren't completely dominated by the left are the armed forces. They are now the number one target and once they are taken, the cultural Marxists will have won.
It's not just here either. It's the whole of the Western world, what we once called Christendom. The left seeks to destroy it.
Don't forget fairness
I love fairness
No idea what fairness is
Never met anyone who can tell me what fairness is
But i suspect
Fairness is me getting up at 06:00 getting to work at 07:00 working my ass off getting home at 18:00 and then giving most of half of my wages to the state so others can watch daytime telly
I love fairness
No idea what fairness is
Never met anyone who can tell me what fairness is
But i suspect
Fairness is me getting up at 06:00 getting to work at 07:00 working my ass off getting home at 18:00 and then giving most of half of my wages to the state so others can watch daytime telly
The left know how to create support. The main trick is to pander to the great number who are below average intelligence, mainly by keeping them in their place - just look at where their support is strongest and see how well the people have done after decades of Labour support (clue not well) - yet they still keep voting for them 
McWigglebum4th said:
Don't forget fairness
Am I the only one who thinks 'fairness' includes negative outcomes for those who do stupid things?It includes helping the less fortunate, but not arbitrarily absolving muppets of risk.
Back to the OP, there is a bifurcation taking place, outside of the mainstream media, which does show stronger affinity to left for some - sand yes, the younger generation have really not benefited at all from the way wages and property prices have gone in the last few decades, or from the gold-plated baby-boomer remuneration packages of the 60s and 70s - but also shows huge swathes of the country who can see multiculturalism and open borders for the disaster it is - they live with the consequences of it every day - and want 'something' done about it.
Guybrush said:
The left know how to create support. The main trick is to pander to the great number who are below average intelligence, mainly by keeping them in their place - just look at where their support is strongest and see how well the people have done after decades of Labour support (clue not well) - yet they still keep voting for them
Green and Lib Dem voters the most intelligent, Tory/Labour level pegging and the dumbest vote BNP, a right wing party IIRC.www.theguardian.com/politics/blog/2008/nov/03/gree...
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