Starting out hillclimbing and sprinting & what car
Discussion
Chaps
I was sat in the commentary box at Shelsley over the weekend wittering away, and it really occurred to me how I was talking about it and not doing anything! Therefore I have resolved to get off my arse and do some grassroots club motorsport whilst the imminent Mrs VM is sympathetic to the idea and there are no wee bambini to drain the required resources.
My plan is to get my B license and work through to get my A license over the next 12-24 months (I will run out of season before I get my self organised and in place to get 6 signatures I expect).
I am definitely doing it on a bit of a shoestring budget. So I have my eye on class B1 (A1 - when the time is right) - namely 'road-going production cars up to 2000 cc'. (I don't especially want to start out in class A2, as the bills for being competitive will be bigger as the cars start getting fairly serious, and also I just want to learn what I am doing before going mad).
I would probably stay Midlands based for the most part, so Shelsley, Prescott and Loton (costs and time), and whilst would do some sprinting to pad out the calendar, hill climbing would be the principal focus. I have no real interest in doing any circuit racing (testicular fortitude and trust issues!), so am not factoring that into any car or license considerations.
I have read through the website about getting into hill-climbing that someone has kindly set up. Budget for the car and season should become clearer in the next few weeks, but can't see it exceeding £4k - £5k including car.
I saw a lot of Mazda's over the weekend, several MX5s in the field as well as an RX8 (a car that was not and was on my radar respectively), and had a bit of an ask round.
I need to find out what would constitute a modification to take me into a 'modified' class (namely something to avoid for now)- if anyone can shed any light?
I have had a few thoughts on cars:
Mazda RX8 - 1.3 litre rotary, with an (I Believe) 1.5(?) multiplier from the MSA for being a rotary, so 1.95 litres.
Pro: Bags of power and a very usable one can be had for as little as £2000. Probably the best bhp for £ you can get. Not many on the hills, so a bit of rarity factor.
Cons: However, it is what, 1400 kg or so? Also I understand that the power lives very high in the rev range, would this be an issue for hill climbing? Also, the chap driving it I spoke to on Saturday said that he was struggling to place it in the corners as the front left is a long way away from you and not particularly visible. However I suppose this is something you would get used to.
Toyota MR2 GT - the one with 175 bhp as a Turbo would take me up a class.
Pro: Mid engine, nice handling car. So long as you get an K plate onwards the tricky back suspension has gone. M - N plate cars are the sweet spot with the most power. Easy to modify and improve power output. Usable ones can be had for sub £2000
Cons: A touch lardy and possibly a slightly iffy power to weight ratio because of it.
Mazda MX5
Pros: Light, cheap, probably the easiest to extract the available performance from, forgiving and fun handling, plenty of potential mods.
Cons: The least powerful of the 3 and whilst the performance will be easy to extract, there isn't all that much of it. seem to be a lot of them around too.
These are my thoughts as it stands, would anyone have any recommendations on any of these three, or even one I haven't thought of?
Thanks for sticking with me to the end - look forward to some replies.
I was sat in the commentary box at Shelsley over the weekend wittering away, and it really occurred to me how I was talking about it and not doing anything! Therefore I have resolved to get off my arse and do some grassroots club motorsport whilst the imminent Mrs VM is sympathetic to the idea and there are no wee bambini to drain the required resources.
My plan is to get my B license and work through to get my A license over the next 12-24 months (I will run out of season before I get my self organised and in place to get 6 signatures I expect).
I am definitely doing it on a bit of a shoestring budget. So I have my eye on class B1 (A1 - when the time is right) - namely 'road-going production cars up to 2000 cc'. (I don't especially want to start out in class A2, as the bills for being competitive will be bigger as the cars start getting fairly serious, and also I just want to learn what I am doing before going mad).
I would probably stay Midlands based for the most part, so Shelsley, Prescott and Loton (costs and time), and whilst would do some sprinting to pad out the calendar, hill climbing would be the principal focus. I have no real interest in doing any circuit racing (testicular fortitude and trust issues!), so am not factoring that into any car or license considerations.
I have read through the website about getting into hill-climbing that someone has kindly set up. Budget for the car and season should become clearer in the next few weeks, but can't see it exceeding £4k - £5k including car.
I saw a lot of Mazda's over the weekend, several MX5s in the field as well as an RX8 (a car that was not and was on my radar respectively), and had a bit of an ask round.
I need to find out what would constitute a modification to take me into a 'modified' class (namely something to avoid for now)- if anyone can shed any light?
I have had a few thoughts on cars:
Mazda RX8 - 1.3 litre rotary, with an (I Believe) 1.5(?) multiplier from the MSA for being a rotary, so 1.95 litres.
Pro: Bags of power and a very usable one can be had for as little as £2000. Probably the best bhp for £ you can get. Not many on the hills, so a bit of rarity factor.
Cons: However, it is what, 1400 kg or so? Also I understand that the power lives very high in the rev range, would this be an issue for hill climbing? Also, the chap driving it I spoke to on Saturday said that he was struggling to place it in the corners as the front left is a long way away from you and not particularly visible. However I suppose this is something you would get used to.
Toyota MR2 GT - the one with 175 bhp as a Turbo would take me up a class.
Pro: Mid engine, nice handling car. So long as you get an K plate onwards the tricky back suspension has gone. M - N plate cars are the sweet spot with the most power. Easy to modify and improve power output. Usable ones can be had for sub £2000
Cons: A touch lardy and possibly a slightly iffy power to weight ratio because of it.
Mazda MX5
Pros: Light, cheap, probably the easiest to extract the available performance from, forgiving and fun handling, plenty of potential mods.
Cons: The least powerful of the 3 and whilst the performance will be easy to extract, there isn't all that much of it. seem to be a lot of them around too.
These are my thoughts as it stands, would anyone have any recommendations on any of these three, or even one I haven't thought of?
Thanks for sticking with me to the end - look forward to some replies.
Rotaries are doubled, so it'd be classed as a 2.6, meaning you'll be placed with a lot of tasty machinery. MX5s are very slow and totally outclassed in the 1400-2 litre, as are are MX5s.
Have you considered something like a 106 rallye? (Very quick in the Upto 1400cc class) or something Like a 172 cup?
If you join a club like the NSCC they do a lot of Hillclimb/sprints around the Midlands area, and run to B licence rules. It's the club I'm with anyway
Feel free to PM me if you have any questions regarding competing etc and I'll help where I can
Have you considered something like a 106 rallye? (Very quick in the Upto 1400cc class) or something Like a 172 cup?
If you join a club like the NSCC they do a lot of Hillclimb/sprints around the Midlands area, and run to B licence rules. It's the club I'm with anyway
Feel free to PM me if you have any questions regarding competing etc and I'll help where I can
Edited by Skylinecrazy on Tuesday 5th May 10:38
I will drop you a PM with some more detail - but to address a couple of points from above.
From the Shelsley program at the weekend:
The MX5s actually did ok in the roadgoing series production class, and the Mazda RX8 was classified in the up to 2000 cc class, not the over 2000 cc.
Either way I will send you a PM at some point today
From the Shelsley program at the weekend:
The MX5s actually did ok in the roadgoing series production class, and the Mazda RX8 was classified in the up to 2000 cc class, not the over 2000 cc.
Either way I will send you a PM at some point today
Vocal Minority said:
I will drop you a PM with some more detail - but to address a couple of points from above.
From the Shelsley program at the weekend:
The MX5s actually did ok in the roadgoing series production class, and the Mazda RX8 was classified in the up to 2000 cc class, not the over 2000 cc.
Either way I will send you a PM at some point today
That's bizarre, at Curborough recently there was an RX8 in the over 2 litre class. From the Shelsley program at the weekend:
The MX5s actually did ok in the roadgoing series production class, and the Mazda RX8 was classified in the up to 2000 cc class, not the over 2000 cc.
Either way I will send you a PM at some point today
maybe it was turbocharged? When I competed at Prescott last year the two MX5s were near the bottom of the class.
I know there's slightly different rules between 'A licence' events and 'B licence' events mind. The saloons are all running semi slicks at shelsley, where as I have to be 1b tyres.
Depends on how competitive you are / want to be ? have a good look at what cars are doing well in that class and go and try a few out.
However, IMO, whatever you end up with it must be fun to drive and what floats YOUR boat or else your get peed off with it.
A 200 bhp ish MX5 would be the sort of car I would consider, my Mate Tom [ New ] has had Very good results obtaining power from them, and its RWD.
Good luck with whatever you choose, have a good read of a blue book, you can modify the cars quite a lot in the roadgoing class
However, IMO, whatever you end up with it must be fun to drive and what floats YOUR boat or else your get peed off with it.
A 200 bhp ish MX5 would be the sort of car I would consider, my Mate Tom [ New ] has had Very good results obtaining power from them, and its RWD.
Good luck with whatever you choose, have a good read of a blue book, you can modify the cars quite a lot in the roadgoing class
When I sprinted I used a clio 172, honda integra type R and S2000 in the up to 2.0 class.
I think the hondas will both be out of budget but a cheap clio is good fun and reasonably competitive on the tighter circuits, the S2000 was a lot quicker around places like goodwood.
I'm sure you could pick up a clio for not much more than £1k which would leave some money for a 2nd set of wheels and R888's or similar (if they are still allowed in the road going classes). If you wanted to go RWD a well driven MX5 always used to do pretty well
I think the hondas will both be out of budget but a cheap clio is good fun and reasonably competitive on the tighter circuits, the S2000 was a lot quicker around places like goodwood.
I'm sure you could pick up a clio for not much more than £1k which would leave some money for a 2nd set of wheels and R888's or similar (if they are still allowed in the road going classes). If you wanted to go RWD a well driven MX5 always used to do pretty well
Mark A S said:
Depends on how competitive you are / want to be ? have a good look at what cars are doing well in that class and go and try a few out.
However, IMO, whatever you end up with it must be fun to drive and what floats YOUR boat or else your get peed off with it.
A 200 bhp ish MX5 would be the sort of car I would consider, my Mate Tom [ New ] has had Very good results obtaining power from them, and its RWD.
Good luck with whatever you choose, have a good read of a blue book, you can modify the cars quite a lot in the roadgoing class
Tom is a member of the MAC off the top of my head, isn't he (as am I - hence the relevance)? Never met him but I think I picked that up somewhere. I will bear the in mind. However, IMO, whatever you end up with it must be fun to drive and what floats YOUR boat or else your get peed off with it.
A 200 bhp ish MX5 would be the sort of car I would consider, my Mate Tom [ New ] has had Very good results obtaining power from them, and its RWD.
Good luck with whatever you choose, have a good read of a blue book, you can modify the cars quite a lot in the roadgoing class
Mark A S said:
Depends on how competitive you are / want to be ? have a good look at what cars are doing well in that class and go and try a few out.
However, IMO, whatever you end up with it must be fun to drive and what floats YOUR boat or else your get peed off with it.
A 200 bhp ish MX5 would be the sort of car I would consider, my Mate Tom [ New ] has had Very good results obtaining power from them, and its RWD.
Good luck with whatever you choose, have a good read of a blue book, you can modify the cars quite a lot in the roadgoing class
Paul Webster's MX5 was very quick indeed! However, IMO, whatever you end up with it must be fun to drive and what floats YOUR boat or else your get peed off with it.
A 200 bhp ish MX5 would be the sort of car I would consider, my Mate Tom [ New ] has had Very good results obtaining power from them, and its RWD.
Good luck with whatever you choose, have a good read of a blue book, you can modify the cars quite a lot in the roadgoing class
it all depends on the class system the clubs running the events you are entering use. For example down here in the SW, Bristol Motor club have a different class structure
A1. Roadgoing Series Production Cars up to 1400cc
A2. Roadgoing Series Production Cars over 1400cc up to 1800cc
A3. Roadgoing Series Production Cars over 1800cc up to 2600cc
A4. Roadgoing Series Production Cars over 2600cc
which means a 1.8 mx5 is in A3 as the capacity is 1839 IIRC. The benefit is by turboing it still fits in the same class so can be made competitive. Some hillclimbs have a specific class for MX5s due to their popularity, Bristol Motor club have a specific championship for Mx5s across 3 sprints and 2 autosolos must be NA though in an attempt to keep costs down. This doesn't stop people spending on NA tuning though.
Whatever you choose you will most likely not be competitive to start with and then you have to make a choice on whether to get involved in the arms race or not. The choice is easy for me, I cannot afford the arms race. There will always be someone you are competing with whether you are at the front or the back and that is where the enjoyment comes from.
Best thing to do buy something , do your first season, then decide whether to stick with what you have or change. I would also say the more seat time you get the better and instruction may yield better results than upgrading the car.
A1. Roadgoing Series Production Cars up to 1400cc
A2. Roadgoing Series Production Cars over 1400cc up to 1800cc
A3. Roadgoing Series Production Cars over 1800cc up to 2600cc
A4. Roadgoing Series Production Cars over 2600cc
which means a 1.8 mx5 is in A3 as the capacity is 1839 IIRC. The benefit is by turboing it still fits in the same class so can be made competitive. Some hillclimbs have a specific class for MX5s due to their popularity, Bristol Motor club have a specific championship for Mx5s across 3 sprints and 2 autosolos must be NA though in an attempt to keep costs down. This doesn't stop people spending on NA tuning though.
Whatever you choose you will most likely not be competitive to start with and then you have to make a choice on whether to get involved in the arms race or not. The choice is easy for me, I cannot afford the arms race. There will always be someone you are competing with whether you are at the front or the back and that is where the enjoyment comes from.
Best thing to do buy something , do your first season, then decide whether to stick with what you have or change. I would also say the more seat time you get the better and instruction may yield better results than upgrading the car.
Well my above chat is based on how the MAC structure things.
On the basis that Shelsley - and as its the 'home hill' I may as well go with that - tend to do 'road-going up to 2000 cc', as do Bugatti OC. HDLCC use under 1400 and 1400 to 2000 cc I believe.
Thanks for the car suggestions everyone, I have popped the Clio and Intergra onto the shortlist/spreadsheet. However, I think the Integra will involve me convincing someone to share.
Also re: the arms race. I doubt I'll try and get involved in that side of it, certainly not early doors. I want to spend the first year or so mucking around learning what to do - hence choosing the most docile class to run in!
On the basis that Shelsley - and as its the 'home hill' I may as well go with that - tend to do 'road-going up to 2000 cc', as do Bugatti OC. HDLCC use under 1400 and 1400 to 2000 cc I believe.
Thanks for the car suggestions everyone, I have popped the Clio and Intergra onto the shortlist/spreadsheet. However, I think the Integra will involve me convincing someone to share.
Also re: the arms race. I doubt I'll try and get involved in that side of it, certainly not early doors. I want to spend the first year or so mucking around learning what to do - hence choosing the most docile class to run in!
Edited by Vocal Minority on Tuesday 5th May 15:15
Edited by Vocal Minority on Tuesday 5th May 15:16
mozzerS said:
I do the target times for our club (another from NSCC) and most of the up to 2000cc targets have been set by S2000, Clio or Golf. Plus the odd 205 or 106. Having said that the Golf ones all seem to have been set by the same person - so may be down to the driver? No, not me 
Fred Currel per chance? Hi,
I used to sprint a Mazda Eunos and decided i needed more power so i upgraded to an RX8. Prodrive version
Rotaries are subject to a 1.5 multiplier thus 1.3l x 1.5 = 1950cc MSA REGS
i run in class A2 with is standard production cars on list 1A tyres up to 2000cc
Last year i won the class on the 3 occasions i went out. This year i have won 2 out of 2 and placed over 3 seconds in front of my next nearest rival.
This weekend sees me competing at Lydden hill on saturday and Debden airfield on sunday. I am hoping for class wins in both to take me to the top of the leaderboard for my clubs speed championship.
I used to sprint a Mazda Eunos and decided i needed more power so i upgraded to an RX8. Prodrive version
Rotaries are subject to a 1.5 multiplier thus 1.3l x 1.5 = 1950cc MSA REGS
i run in class A2 with is standard production cars on list 1A tyres up to 2000cc
Last year i won the class on the 3 occasions i went out. This year i have won 2 out of 2 and placed over 3 seconds in front of my next nearest rival.
This weekend sees me competing at Lydden hill on saturday and Debden airfield on sunday. I am hoping for class wins in both to take me to the top of the leaderboard for my clubs speed championship.
Skylinecrazy said:
Paul Webster's MX5 was very quick indeed!
A long way from std though!OP, I'm on my 5th season of climbing a 172 Cup, they are quite popular for a reason. Cheap, great handling, pretty tough bar gearboxes & lots of mods within roadgoing class if funds allow.
Only downside is they are hard to extract much power from but lightened with sorted handling they can be competitive & they are great FUN!
Skylinecrazy said:
Paul Webster's MX5 was very quick indeed!
A long way from std though!OP, I'm on my 5th season of climbing a 172 Cup, they are quite popular for a reason. Cheap, great handling, pretty tough bar gearboxes & lots of mods within roadgoing class if funds allow.
Only downside is they are hard to extract much power from but lightened with sorted handling they can be competitive & they are great FUN!
Hi mate, this is my 4th year of sprinting and I have competed in several classes from standard upto bike engined cars. I can not reccomend starting in the standard production classes enough!! Way cheaper and quite often upto 15 cars in the class so lots of competition to be had.
Also reccomend sharing you car with a mate ( I am currently sharing the RX8 with Salesy above ) as it makes it way more exciting, cheaper and a direct comparison to work from.
In the South East we have A1 which is standard upto 1600. For fun I would find the best Mk1 Eunos 1600 with standard LSD ( some no longer wirk on Tarmac mind due to age ) or a decent 106 Gti / Saxo VTS or Citroen C2 VTS. Early Honda Civic VTI or CRX are good with 172 bhp if a little heavy, the holy grail in this class is the import only EK9 Civic Type R with 180 bhp from 1.6!! Decent suspension already, this should wipe the floor in the class if you can find one!
In A2 lots of people use Clio 172 / 182 ( I have one also ) but they are outgunned in the right hands by the Type R brigades, DC5 even DC2, and S2000's pack a mighty punch from their 2.0s. Everything else will just be playing catch up on airfield / track sprints etc. we are using a Prodrive PZ RX8 which as Oaul says works out under 2.0, and apart from Paul having a little off at Lydden it is undefeated so far this year, we have twice got a 1-2 in a class of 15. And they cost from hundreds not thousands. Proper RWD fun too,
Whatever you choose, again I stress get a friend to share with you it make the tension 10 times more!!
Also reccomend sharing you car with a mate ( I am currently sharing the RX8 with Salesy above ) as it makes it way more exciting, cheaper and a direct comparison to work from.
In the South East we have A1 which is standard upto 1600. For fun I would find the best Mk1 Eunos 1600 with standard LSD ( some no longer wirk on Tarmac mind due to age ) or a decent 106 Gti / Saxo VTS or Citroen C2 VTS. Early Honda Civic VTI or CRX are good with 172 bhp if a little heavy, the holy grail in this class is the import only EK9 Civic Type R with 180 bhp from 1.6!! Decent suspension already, this should wipe the floor in the class if you can find one!
In A2 lots of people use Clio 172 / 182 ( I have one also ) but they are outgunned in the right hands by the Type R brigades, DC5 even DC2, and S2000's pack a mighty punch from their 2.0s. Everything else will just be playing catch up on airfield / track sprints etc. we are using a Prodrive PZ RX8 which as Oaul says works out under 2.0, and apart from Paul having a little off at Lydden it is undefeated so far this year, we have twice got a 1-2 in a class of 15. And they cost from hundreds not thousands. Proper RWD fun too,
Whatever you choose, again I stress get a friend to share with you it make the tension 10 times more!!
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