Discussion
A reply to another thread has prompted me to ask this question:-
Why do so many of you tackle your own electrics when you clearly have not got a jar of glue?
Its getting that bad that I have to add at least half a day onto every quote just to put the original stuff right before I do any of my own work. Its every single job I come across just lately, Today I had to spend 2 hours in a red hot loft up to my neck in dirty insulation trying to put right the wiring because someone fancied a couple of wall lights over the bed Badly made of exposed connectors and snipped out earth's seem to be the norm.
A heads up for the DIYers, the un-sleeved centre wire in a cable actually does something and its not just a means of stripping the cable back.
Why do so many of you tackle your own electrics when you clearly have not got a jar of glue?
Its getting that bad that I have to add at least half a day onto every quote just to put the original stuff right before I do any of my own work. Its every single job I come across just lately, Today I had to spend 2 hours in a red hot loft up to my neck in dirty insulation trying to put right the wiring because someone fancied a couple of wall lights over the bed Badly made of exposed connectors and snipped out earth's seem to be the norm.
A heads up for the DIYers, the un-sleeved centre wire in a cable actually does something and its not just a means of stripping the cable back.
Simpo Two said:
If I think I can do something myself, I usually do it myself. If I don't think I can do something myself, I get a man in.
I do things myself not necessarily to save money, but to do it in my time, my way, to my standards - and I enjoy doing it.
I'm sure you do but the stuff I see the people think they can do it themselves as well and probably give themselves a pat on the back after doing it.I do things myself not necessarily to save money, but to do it in my time, my way, to my standards - and I enjoy doing it.
stuart313 said:
Simpo Two said:
If I think I can do something myself, I usually do it myself. If I don't think I can do something myself, I get a man in.
I do things myself not necessarily to save money, but to do it in my time, my way, to my standards - and I enjoy doing it.
I'm sure you do but the stuff I see the people think they can do it themselves as well and probably give themselves a pat on the back after doing it.I do things myself not necessarily to save money, but to do it in my time, my way, to my standards - and I enjoy doing it.
The amount of duff info given out can be frightening, recently someone was advising plugging a 20A. Double oven into a 13a socket!
On the flipside, on several occasions I've had to put right the mistakes made by what should have been professional sparks when I've been doing the odd bit of electrical DIY.
A common favourite seems to be screwing down through the insulation instead of onto the conductor when wiring sockets and switches.
Still nothing compared to some of the DIY from previous owner style stuff I've had to fix, much worse.
A common favourite seems to be screwing down through the insulation instead of onto the conductor when wiring sockets and switches.
Still nothing compared to some of the DIY from previous owner style stuff I've had to fix, much worse.
Look at the upside OP, you can bolt on an extra few quid for all the putting right you have to do first, I dont know why you are moaning, surely you benefit from the many eejits trying their own electrics?
Also its not as if electricians all sing from the same hymn sheet either, ive had one electrician do a periodic test on one of my properties only for another one to come in and pull apart all of electrician No.1's mistakes.
Also its not as if electricians all sing from the same hymn sheet either, ive had one electrician do a periodic test on one of my properties only for another one to come in and pull apart all of electrician No.1's mistakes.
Neil - YVM said:
Stuart fully agree, and unfortunately forums like this can lead to good intending people giving their opinion/advice on things they really know little to nothing about. Coupled with materials being readily available, and the scope of what can and cannot be diy'd not being widly known.
The amount of duff info given out can be frightening, recently someone was advising plugging a 20A. Double oven into a 13a socket!
Interesting you should mention plugging ovens into 13A sockets. All the wiring for our extension / kitchen was done by "professionals" and the two Siemens ovens we have clearly state on the instructions that they are not to be wired up to 13A plugs/sockets and yet what do I find, yep you've guessed it pair of sockets in the cupboard with the ovens plugged into them. Now I have a degree in Electrical and Electronic Engineering so I sort of know what I'm doing The amount of duff info given out can be frightening, recently someone was advising plugging a 20A. Double oven into a 13a socket!
The ovens are rated at (IIRC) 13.5A and 14A, given that the good old British 13A plug is over engineered and can cope with a bit more current than that and that the sockets are being supplied of a 45A spur direct from the consumer unit I'll let it go. I don't have any concerns about my house burning down. That said when a Siemens technician was out to fix one of the ovens he did insist on sticking a sticker to the sockets to say it wasn't a compliant installation.I'll happily tackle easy electrical jobs around the house but if it looks complicated or there are safety implications then I'll pay someone to do it.
dazwalsh said:
Also its not as if electricians all sing from the same hymn sheet either, ive had one electrician do a periodic test on one of my properties only for another one to come in and pull apart all of electrician No.1's mistakes.
Indeed.There are as many dodgy sparks as there are DIY bodgers. I can't comment on the standard of work done by electricians, as the only time that I have used one is to replace a consumer unit, but I've always found problems with work done by other tradesmen - wth one exception. There seems to be an attitude of "that'll do". Fixed price for the job, so the temptation is to cut corners and maximise profit.
The one exception is a chap that I used in my last house, who I paid a day rate. I worked with him, and any snags were discussed and done to my satisfaction. When paying a fixed price, I've always had to go back and redo stuff. It's mostly the cosmetic finishing that tradesmen fall down on, rather than the basics.
Electrics is the thing that I'm most comfortable with doing myself. My dad was a sparks, so I was brought up working with all sorts of domestic and light industrial wiring. Regs change, new stuff comes out, so I try and keep up to date with the current ways of doing a job. I trust my own work, but I wouldn't work on other people's houses beyond replacing a light switch or socket.
The one exception is a chap that I used in my last house, who I paid a day rate. I worked with him, and any snags were discussed and done to my satisfaction. When paying a fixed price, I've always had to go back and redo stuff. It's mostly the cosmetic finishing that tradesmen fall down on, rather than the basics.
Electrics is the thing that I'm most comfortable with doing myself. My dad was a sparks, so I was brought up working with all sorts of domestic and light industrial wiring. Regs change, new stuff comes out, so I try and keep up to date with the current ways of doing a job. I trust my own work, but I wouldn't work on other people's houses beyond replacing a light switch or socket.
I'm going to have to spend some of my weekend sorting out a pretty s
tty job that a plumber made of plumbing up a shower. FFS, the instructions state "don't use plastic pipe", and "use 22mm until as close to the shower valve as possible" and "use smooth bends, try to avoid the use of elbows". So I have a run of 15mm plastic pipe from a reducer from 22mm right by the shower pump which is fed via a mass of pushfit elbows.
I also had an incident having moved into our house where the busbar in the consumer unit was poorly fitted by a pro sparky and was fizzing and sparking when we started plugging stuff into the downstairs ring. Could have burned the house down. I left sorting that one out to a (different) pro. However, there wasn't much complicated about it - just a question of fitting the damn thing properly.
The insinuation that only pros can actually do a job is utterly wrong. In fact, apart from the obvious cost save, I'd say that the reason I do lots of this type of stuff myself is that I don't trust other people to do it right.
OP, You make a valid point about earthing though. If you don't know what it's for or does, then you shouldn't do work until you've learned that!
tty job that a plumber made of plumbing up a shower. FFS, the instructions state "don't use plastic pipe", and "use 22mm until as close to the shower valve as possible" and "use smooth bends, try to avoid the use of elbows". So I have a run of 15mm plastic pipe from a reducer from 22mm right by the shower pump which is fed via a mass of pushfit elbows.I also had an incident having moved into our house where the busbar in the consumer unit was poorly fitted by a pro sparky and was fizzing and sparking when we started plugging stuff into the downstairs ring. Could have burned the house down. I left sorting that one out to a (different) pro. However, there wasn't much complicated about it - just a question of fitting the damn thing properly.
The insinuation that only pros can actually do a job is utterly wrong. In fact, apart from the obvious cost save, I'd say that the reason I do lots of this type of stuff myself is that I don't trust other people to do it right.
OP, You make a valid point about earthing though. If you don't know what it's for or does, then you shouldn't do work until you've learned that!
C0ffin D0dger said:
Interesting you should mention plugging ovens into 13A sockets. All the wiring for our extension / kitchen was done by "professionals" and the two Siemens ovens we have clearly state on the instructions that they are not to be wired up to 13A plugs/sockets and yet what do I find, yep you've guessed it pair of sockets in the cupboard with the ovens plugged into them. Now I have a degree in Electrical and Electronic Engineering so I sort of know what I'm doing The ovens are rated at (IIRC) 13.5A and 14A, given that the good old British 13A plug is over engineered and can cope with a bit more current than that and that the sockets are being supplied of a 45A spur direct from the consumer unit I'll let it go. I don't have any concerns about my house burning down. That said when a Siemens technician was out to fix one of the ovens he did insist on sticking a sticker to the sockets to say it wasn't a compliant installation.
I'll happily tackle easy electrical jobs around the house but if it looks complicated or there are safety implications then I'll pay someone to do it.
Sorry but it needs to stated this is completely incorrect. I've thrown away more burnt out 13a plugs/sockets and spurs that were running 3kW loads such as ovens/immersions than you could carry. There's a reason for the rules & advice against it, and even where permissible to run max loads I'll try to avoid it. As for over-engineered that depends entirely who makes the one you're referring to, there's more than one manufacturer, and if it's a twin socket they're plugged into then you need to be aware the whole 2 outlet unit is only "rated" at 13a max. Also the fact they're on a 45a circuit does not safeguard it in any way whatsoever, quite the contrary. The ovens are rated at (IIRC) 13.5A and 14A, given that the good old British 13A plug is over engineered and can cope with a bit more current than that and that the sockets are being supplied of a 45A spur direct from the consumer unit I'll let it go. I don't have any concerns about my house burning down. That said when a Siemens technician was out to fix one of the ovens he did insist on sticking a sticker to the sockets to say it wasn't a compliant installation.I'll happily tackle easy electrical jobs around the house but if it looks complicated or there are safety implications then I'll pay someone to do it.
Edited by hairyben on Thursday 14th May 12:39
C0ffin D0dger said:
Neil - YVM said:
Stuart fully agree, and unfortunately forums like this can lead to good intending people giving their opinion/advice on things they really know little to nothing about. Coupled with materials being readily available, and the scope of what can and cannot be diy'd not being widly known.
The amount of duff info given out can be frightening, recently someone was advising plugging a 20A. Double oven into a 13a socket!
Interesting you should mention plugging ovens into 13A sockets. All the wiring for our extension / kitchen was done by "professionals" and the two Siemens ovens we have clearly state on the instructions that they are not to be wired up to 13A plugs/sockets and yet what do I find, yep you've guessed it pair of sockets in the cupboard with the ovens plugged into them. Now I have a degree in Electrical and Electronic Engineering so I sort of know what I'm doing The amount of duff info given out can be frightening, recently someone was advising plugging a 20A. Double oven into a 13a socket!
The ovens are rated at (IIRC) 13.5A and 14A, given that the good old British 13A plug is over engineered and can cope with a bit more current than that and that the sockets are being supplied of a 45A spur direct from the consumer unit I'll let it go. I don't have any concerns about my house burning down. That said when a Siemens technician was out to fix one of the ovens he did insist on sticking a sticker to the sockets to say it wasn't a compliant installation.I'll happily tackle easy electrical jobs around the house but if it looks complicated or there are safety implications then I'll pay someone to do it.
You may get lucky and never operate either ovens at their fullest settings, and so it may work Ok. But regardless it does not make the Install correct or even acceptable.
We did a dry kitchen install for a tenanted 2 years ago, just prior to Xmas. The land lords electrician was going to do the electrical connections. I advised them that they needed a new supply for the ceramic hob, only to find it plugged into the kitchen ring main via a 13 Amp socket. "They'll never use all the rings at once, so it will be OK".
Guess why the tenant called me on Xmas day?
C0ffin D0dger said:
Interesting you should mention plugging ovens into 13A sockets. All the wiring for our extension / kitchen was done by "professionals" and the two Siemens ovens we have clearly state on the instructions that they are not to be wired up to 13A plugs/sockets and yet what do I find, yep you've guessed it pair of sockets in the cupboard with the ovens plugged into them. Now I have a degree in Electrical and Electronic Engineering so I sort of know what I'm doing The ovens are rated at (IIRC) 13.5A and 14A, given that the good old British 13A plug is over engineered and can cope with a bit more current than that and that the sockets are being supplied of a 45A spur direct from the consumer unit I'll let it go. I don't have any concerns about my house burning down. That said when a Siemens technician was out to fix one of the ovens he did insist on sticking a sticker to the sockets to say it wasn't a compliant installation.
I'll happily tackle easy electrical jobs around the house but if it looks complicated or there are safety implications then I'll pay someone to do it.
Doesn't sound right at all. Has each oven got its own 45? amp supply? or is it one supply that feeds 2 single sockets. If its a 45A breaker then the cable should be 10mm however I cant see them looping 10mm (or even 6mm) in and out of 2 single sockets. The ovens are rated at (IIRC) 13.5A and 14A, given that the good old British 13A plug is over engineered and can cope with a bit more current than that and that the sockets are being supplied of a 45A spur direct from the consumer unit I'll let it go. I don't have any concerns about my house burning down. That said when a Siemens technician was out to fix one of the ovens he did insist on sticking a sticker to the sockets to say it wasn't a compliant installation.I'll happily tackle easy electrical jobs around the house but if it looks complicated or there are safety implications then I'll pay someone to do it.
If it was me doing it I would have run 2 x 2.5 supplies on 16A breakers and used a 20A DP switch for each oven.
A lot of new ovens have pyro clean, which needs the full 16/20a as it reaches temps of up to 500c, so this must be taken into account with circuit design.
However, most ovens loading can be calculated using diversity and with that, most will end up rated a lot less than the label states and probaby could run forever on a 13A plug.
The regs do state that any cooking appliance rated at 2kW and above should have its own circuit.
Anyway, i very rarely give advice on forums with regard to electrical installations.
However, most ovens loading can be calculated using diversity and with that, most will end up rated a lot less than the label states and probaby could run forever on a 13A plug.
The regs do state that any cooking appliance rated at 2kW and above should have its own circuit.
Anyway, i very rarely give advice on forums with regard to electrical installations.
stuart313 said:
Doesn't sound right at all. Has each oven got its own 45? amp supply? or is it one supply that feeds 2 single sockets. If its a 45A breaker then the cable should be 10mm however I cant see them looping 10mm (or even 6mm) in and out of 2 single sockets.
If it was me doing it I would have run 2 x 2.5 supplies on 16A breakers and used a 20A DP switch for each oven.
Might rethink this then, to me it seems *ok* and both ovens have ran pyrolytic cleaning cycles without issue.If it was me doing it I would have run 2 x 2.5 supplies on 16A breakers and used a 20A DP switch for each oven.
There's a single 45A supply in the consumer unit, two single sockets for the ovens. When I've got a minute I'll have to take the sockets off and see exactly what they've done. I've got a certificate for all this work by the way so it must be safe
Two supplies on two breakers would probably make more sense but there isn't any more room in the consumer unit (Wylex split load, 10 way job).
Could they have ran the 45A cable (10mm) into a suitably sized connecting block / junction box and then have two lots of 2.5mm coming out of the other side, one for each socket? If that were the case would just changing the sockets for 20A DP isolators be okay & legal?
Stuff has a maximum rating as well as a minimum one. If you were to do as you say then the supply flex to each oven, that may well be a piece of 1.5mm (and the ovens themselves) would only have protection via a 45A fuse. Dito for the 2.5 to the socket/switch.
in all probability nothing will ever go wrong but you never know.
If it was me and there was room I would put a little 2 way unit in with 2x16A mcbs going to 2 DP switches.
in all probability nothing will ever go wrong but you never know.
If it was me and there was room I would put a little 2 way unit in with 2x16A mcbs going to 2 DP switches.
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