Refinement/fun

Refinement/fun

Author
Discussion

bennyboysvuk

Original Poster:

3,491 posts

247 months

Friday 15th May 2015
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I know it has been said before that as previous models have been superseded, the new model is often slated for not being as much fun as its predecessor. However, I feel that BMW have got to the point where the cars are far, far less of an event these days. They're becoming more like fast Audis in that they're quiet and refined, yet go point to point very quickly, without raising the heart rate.

I know it's subjective, but I truly feel that my favourite M-cars are now firmly in the past, never to be repeated. I don't think any every day car manufacturer offers what I really want in a car these days, that mix of usability and fun. BMW were the last to offer such a car, but the fun has been refined out of them. Sure, they've got faster and have more grip, which is great on track, but it all seems so digital compared to yesterday's analogue cars.

Anyone else feeling the same?

SPORTSTER

160 posts

168 months

Friday 15th May 2015
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Yes totally agree, the newer BMW M cars just seem to have a sense of occasion about them packed with more gadgets than your local Maplins.
Gone are days of the analogue driver its all digal this, DCT PDK DSG that and the car has more sensors than a robot etc yes its all the new-ish technology & fun but that's what the new age drivers wants which is apparently 'fashionable' but I when I get into the car, I want to drive the car not the car drive me.



Edited by SPORTSTER on Friday 15th May 14:15

HoagieLomax

927 posts

190 months

Friday 15th May 2015
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The E30 M3and E28 M5 are the Archetypal sports saloons,less is more approach with real Motorsport roots.A 1200 kg car with smallish tyres and enough power is the way forward for fun.

I still can't believe the E90 M3 weighs over 1600kg and apparently the F80 isn't much better either despite claims.




Jazzer

1,665 posts

203 months

Friday 15th May 2015
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I don't agree with these sentiments. The F10 M5, for example, is one hell of a good car, far from just a fast Audi. It handles too. I think one issue is that, because they are so capable with such high limits, it's perhaps not easy to enjoy them to their full extent on public roads. Turn the DSC off and they are simply sensational. I love all the M-cars and would ideally have one of each! As an all-rounder though, very few cars even get close to M5s. Special cars, they really are.

GameOverMan!

332 posts

196 months

Friday 15th May 2015
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Mmmmm... quiet and refined. My M4 is noisy and if you ask for full power at the wrong time then you'll be at least changing your underpants or possibly visiting a hedge.

Out of all the M3 models I've owned over the years, the only one which was something different and 'raw' was the E46 CSL. The rest were well spec'd and refined, and had a decent amount of grunt for the era they were created in. The interiors were still based on the 3 series of the day, except the E36 - the coupe had fantastic seats.

I would however say the feel of the steering was a lot better.

Just my 2p.

Rick448

1,677 posts

223 months

Friday 15th May 2015
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My F80 M3 provides me with plenty of fun. I'd certainly not saty it lacks any drama. I hear the same all the time about bikes too. People pay silly prices for old bikes which are nowhere as capable or fun as the newest stuff. At the end of the day it comes down to personal choice doesn't it. If the buyers didn't like them they would sell any.

bennyboysvuk

Original Poster:

3,491 posts

247 months

Friday 15th May 2015
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I do find the later cars comparatively frustrating, you can't just get in and exceed grip limits in them. They have safe driving modes for the days when you want it to be a pussycat. I never want a 400hp plus car to feel like that. It should be liable to spin up if I'm ham fisted with it. The sound track should be more mechanical and when I reach three figure speeds I should know about it. Full bore acceleration shouldn't be something you can still hold a sensible volume conversation over.

I just feel like the new cars are very, very polished, which takes the fun out of it.

Immense power can be fun, but add turbo lag, quieter cars overall and a load of driving modes when one is all you really need and it all seems a bit disappointing.

steakandchips

212 posts

161 months

Saturday 16th May 2015
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Zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz.

rs4al

925 posts

164 months

Saturday 16th May 2015
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Hmmm, in my limited time in the M4, it definitely is not that refined or homogenised.

Maybe it's the manual box but I can hear the diff, hear the gears, the engine whines, snorts and bangs nicely in a very good way, active sound can be a bit of a pain at times when you want it quiet cruising on the motorway and the cold start is definitely neighbour upsetting.

SidewaysSi

10,742 posts

233 months

Saturday 16th May 2015
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I entirely agree-I think the new stuff is heavy, over complicated and dull in comparison to older cars. Raw steering feel, no toys and oversteer at 30mph is what I am after.

Which is why I have just bought a truly mint E36 328i coupe which will get built up over time to be my perfect road car

I thought the E46 M3 was a dull, blunt instrument on the road and the M4 is hardly getting the sorts of reviews even that car got. No doubt on a track they are better but I don't even spend 5% of my miles on track and when I do, I prefer something harder and sharper than 1.5 tonnes of 3 series.

Krupp Stahl

212 posts

127 months

Saturday 16th May 2015
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This thread is basically people just saying that whatever car they happen to own is the best. It possibly a bit pointless.

You've got to laugh at humanity really. It's not about the merits or otherwise of the cars at all.

dvshannow

1,580 posts

135 months

Saturday 16th May 2015
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Krupp Stahl said:
This thread is basically people just saying that whatever car they happen to own is the best. It possibly a bit pointless.

You've got to laugh at humanity really. It's not about the merits or otherwise of the cars at all.
Seems perfectly logical people tend to spend their money on what they think is best

Leins

9,415 posts

147 months

Saturday 16th May 2015
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Krupp Stahl said:
This thread is basically people just saying that whatever car they happen to own is the best. It possibly a bit pointless.

You've got to laugh at humanity really. It's not about the merits or otherwise of the cars at all.
The E28 M5 and E30 M3s are the greatest M-cars ever built IMO, and I own neither

Krupp Stahl

212 posts

127 months

Saturday 16th May 2015
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It's a natural response of the human brain. My post isn't meant to be rude. I'm not knocking it - just making an observation.

Of course people spend their money as they see fit.



theboss

6,878 posts

218 months

Saturday 16th May 2015
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Jazzer said:
I don't agree with these sentiments. The F10 M5, for example, is one hell of a good car, far from just a fast Audi. It handles too. I think one issue is that, because they are so capable with such high limits, it's perhaps not easy to enjoy them to their full extent on public roads. Turn the DSC off and they are simply sensational. I love all the M-cars and would ideally have one of each! As an all-rounder though, very few cars even get close to M5s. Special cars, they really are.
Agreed - since getting mine I've wondered why the negativity. It's an outstanding machine. Would I swap it for an E28 or an E34 M5 - not a chance.

Snap by the way Jazzer - my Golf R turns up any week now!

Tony B2

610 posts

174 months

Sunday 17th May 2015
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Krupp Stahl said:
This thread is basically people just saying that whatever car they happen to own is the best. It possibly a bit pointless.

You've got to laugh at humanity really. It's not about the merits or otherwise of the cars at all.
Arrogant and patronising b0110x

Krupp Stahl

212 posts

127 months

Sunday 17th May 2015
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Tony B2 said:
Arrogant and patronising b0110x
Why? I'm as guilty of it as the next man. It's human nature.

I have an old E46 M3. To you, it's probably a tired old heap with far too many miles on it. To me, it's the best bloody car in the world.

Our perspectives differ and that has the potential to tarnish our objectivity. That's my point.

Patronising? OK mate, if you say so.

EDIT: Looking back at my first post, I think made my point clumsily. I apologise for that.



Edited by Krupp Stahl on Sunday 17th May 12:57

bennyboysvuk

Original Poster:

3,491 posts

247 months

Monday 18th May 2015
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rs4al said:
Hmmm, in my limited time in the M4, it definitely is not that refined or homogenised.

Maybe it's the manual box but I can hear the diff, hear the gears, the engine whines, snorts and bangs nicely in a very good way, active sound can be a bit of a pain at times when you want it quiet cruising on the motorway and the cold start is definitely neighbour upsetting.
I find it frustrating that during a cold-start when the wastegate is open and the noise isn't being strangled by the turbo is when the car sounds at its best, which sadly lasts for a very short time, during which it can't be thrashed anyway. It's as if it starts with a big raucous promise and then goes all quiet on you after you get moving.

bennyboysvuk

Original Poster:

3,491 posts

247 months

Monday 18th May 2015
quotequote all
Krupp Stahl said:
This thread is basically people just saying that whatever car they happen to own is the best. It possibly a bit pointless.

You've got to laugh at humanity really. It's not about the merits or otherwise of the cars at all.
If you're looking at it like that, then perhaps it comes down to the level at which the individual's fight or flight response kicks in and the adrenaline begins to flow. The old stuff let you know about speed, began sliding earlier on and had no electronic safety-net, which is bound to trigger more survival responses than feeling cocooned and comfortable with radio 4 clearly audible in the background.

Krupp Stahl

212 posts

127 months

Monday 18th May 2015
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bennyboysvuk said:
If you're looking at it like that, then perhaps it comes down to the level at which the individual's fight or flight response kicks in and the adrenaline begins to flow. The old stuff let you know about speed, began sliding earlier on and had no electronic safety-net, which is bound to trigger more survival responses than feeling cocooned and comfortable with radio 4 clearly audible in the background.
It's a fair point that.

I guess it comes down to how the target audience has changed. Back in the day, the M3 was a direct and necessary spin off of the firm's motorsport division - I believe that they had to produce X number of road going versions of their competition vehicles in order to be allowed to compete. The result was a fairly raw and hardcore racing machine which drove as such.

Over time, the Motorsport Division has become a brand in its own right and so has to cater for everyone who is likely to buy it. The vehicles seem to have become fatter and heavier in the process and are more laden with options to cater for this 'new' market.

On balance, the whole emphasis has changed and I guess it's not surprising that the raw experience is a thing of the past. A real victim of its own success!