Tissot - could I do better for the same money?
Discussion
I'm after a stainless chronograph for daily duties but a recent house purchase has left funds a little stretched.
Quite like the look of this Tissot V8 but I don't know a great deal about the watches themselves. Are they generally regarded as being half decent? There's not much about at the £300 mark, and as much as I love my G Shocks, having a stainless chrono with 'Casio' plastered across it just doesn't seem right, so the Edifices are out.
http://www.goldsmiths.co.uk/Tissot-V8-Gents-Watch/...
I would like to get a couple of years use out of it while I fill up the piggy bank for my dream watch.
Quite like the look of this Tissot V8 but I don't know a great deal about the watches themselves. Are they generally regarded as being half decent? There's not much about at the £300 mark, and as much as I love my G Shocks, having a stainless chrono with 'Casio' plastered across it just doesn't seem right, so the Edifices are out.
http://www.goldsmiths.co.uk/Tissot-V8-Gents-Watch/...
I would like to get a couple of years use out of it while I fill up the piggy bank for my dream watch.
Decent enough for a quartz chrono – but frankly, I'd spend the extra on this, assuming you'll never actually use the chrono function.
http://www.steinhartwatches.de/en/OCEAN-two,532.ht...
If you want to see what else you can spend the same or not much more on, head over to chrono24, and see if anything else takes your fancy, quartz or automatic.
http://www.steinhartwatches.de/en/OCEAN-two,532.ht...
If you want to see what else you can spend the same or not much more on, head over to chrono24, and see if anything else takes your fancy, quartz or automatic.
If you like it, go for it.
Cheaper here: http://www.creationwatches.com/products/tissot-chr...
Maybe look at a Seiko Solar Chronograph, saves having to worry about batteries.
Cheaper here: http://www.creationwatches.com/products/tissot-chr...
Maybe look at a Seiko Solar Chronograph, saves having to worry about batteries.
Honestly? Avoid! The movement in those is nasty nasty nasty!!!
It's (seriously) as badly made as some of the chinese unbranded stuff out there, just with a respected name and "quality Swiss" price tag attached. the whole thing is held together with melted plastic rivets instead of screws and is completely unrepairable in any way except for battery changes, even by the factory.
Despite this, having got your money, they'll tell you that you should send it for "servicing" every few years even though they're physically impossible to service.
For less money, FAR better quality, and very good back-up look at Citizen or Seiko.
To give you an idea of the difference in back-up, last week I've replaced a Tissot screw-down crown on a 100m rated and a Citizen 200m rated. the Tissot one was 6x the cost price of the Citizen despite being, for all purposes, the same item (the Citizen was actually a little better finished).
In a couple of years, you won't even have that option with the Tissot because you'll HAVE to send it back to them, and they won't replace a crown (or glass etc) without also charging for a full service of that impossible to service movement.
It's (seriously) as badly made as some of the chinese unbranded stuff out there, just with a respected name and "quality Swiss" price tag attached. the whole thing is held together with melted plastic rivets instead of screws and is completely unrepairable in any way except for battery changes, even by the factory.
Despite this, having got your money, they'll tell you that you should send it for "servicing" every few years even though they're physically impossible to service.
For less money, FAR better quality, and very good back-up look at Citizen or Seiko.
To give you an idea of the difference in back-up, last week I've replaced a Tissot screw-down crown on a 100m rated and a Citizen 200m rated. the Tissot one was 6x the cost price of the Citizen despite being, for all purposes, the same item (the Citizen was actually a little better finished).
In a couple of years, you won't even have that option with the Tissot because you'll HAVE to send it back to them, and they won't replace a crown (or glass etc) without also charging for a full service of that impossible to service movement.
Not sure if its the same movement, but my daily beater is a Tissot PRS 200, its now about 12 years old and runs spot on all of the time. It is on its 3rd battery (replaced last year).
I has been snorkelling, surfing, windsurfing, snowboarding, gardening etc. I think its been very good value
I has been snorkelling, surfing, windsurfing, snowboarding, gardening etc. I think its been very good value
Not sure when they started using the G10 series, but 2003-ish would be close. Even if yours is a G10 though, and has survived that long, the good ones don't change what you're getting for your money with them under the illusion of "Swiss quality".
I have a Zeon quartz, made in China, and bought in 1990 from Argos, that's still going (on about it's 5th battery). That doesn't make it a "quality" watch. It cost £19.99, which is a reasonable price for watch with a cheap, accurate, throw-away movement.
£300+ is basically taking the piss, especially when (as they do) they try to get you to pay for "servicing" every few years on something that you can't even get new oil into!
One other thing to consider is that, while most quartz movements might normally be changed when faulty, one that can be stripped can usually be repaired if, for example, replacements become obsolete (some of the G10s went obsolete last year btw) or the makers decide to restrict replacements to their own service agents (not that any company would do that, surely?). I regularly service 1990s and earlier (the earliest to date was 1973 quartz movements for people who have sentimental attachment after that time.
A sealed and, effectively, glued together movement can't be repaired so, if it breaks 10 years down the line, you have no choice but to throw it away.
I have a Zeon quartz, made in China, and bought in 1990 from Argos, that's still going (on about it's 5th battery). That doesn't make it a "quality" watch. It cost £19.99, which is a reasonable price for watch with a cheap, accurate, throw-away movement.
£300+ is basically taking the piss, especially when (as they do) they try to get you to pay for "servicing" every few years on something that you can't even get new oil into!
One other thing to consider is that, while most quartz movements might normally be changed when faulty, one that can be stripped can usually be repaired if, for example, replacements become obsolete (some of the G10s went obsolete last year btw) or the makers decide to restrict replacements to their own service agents (not that any company would do that, surely?). I regularly service 1990s and earlier (the earliest to date was 1973 quartz movements for people who have sentimental attachment after that time.
A sealed and, effectively, glued together movement can't be repaired so, if it breaks 10 years down the line, you have no choice but to throw it away.
The current non-chrono Seamasters use Omega cal 1538, which is based on the ETA 255.461:
The recent (not 1970s) Seamaster quartz chronos use Omega 1675, which is an ETA 251.262 base (same as used by Breitling and some TAG Heuers):
Both are nicely made, repairable, movements and as well deserving as any quartz of the "Swiss made" reputation for quality.
The G10 used by Tissot and various others is an entirely different animal:
Look closely and you'll see 3 little dots / dimples. These are where they melt the movement together after assembly. Yes, it's ETA. yes, it's Swiss made. But no, it's not good quality. In fact, it fairly clearly owes more to this Chinese SL68 in design ethos than it does to the quality Swiss examples above:
In fact, the SL68 has an advantage over the G10 - at least it's 100% replaceable by a Hattori PC21* as a direct swap!
The recent (not 1970s) Seamaster quartz chronos use Omega 1675, which is an ETA 251.262 base (same as used by Breitling and some TAG Heuers):
Both are nicely made, repairable, movements and as well deserving as any quartz of the "Swiss made" reputation for quality.
The G10 used by Tissot and various others is an entirely different animal:
Look closely and you'll see 3 little dots / dimples. These are where they melt the movement together after assembly. Yes, it's ETA. yes, it's Swiss made. But no, it's not good quality. In fact, it fairly clearly owes more to this Chinese SL68 in design ethos than it does to the quality Swiss examples above:
In fact, the SL68 has an advantage over the G10 - at least it's 100% replaceable by a Hattori PC21* as a direct swap!
- Also very cheap and disposable, but very reliable and doesn't pretend to be anything it isn't!
Emeye said:
This is what has always put me off buying a decent watch - my lack of knowledge on the subject, and the unnerving feeling that I may be getting fleeced by the marketing.
Anything Swatch Group and you're in real danger of that - not to mention being held to ransom by them for repairs in the future because they're blocking everyone else out of parts supply. So their price or no repair any time even a glass is needed, and their price WILL include a full service, regardless of whether it's needed or even possible (as in those G10 movements).The simple answer is to buy Japanese - Citizen or Seiko. Decent quality and absolutely your money's worth at whatever level you buy, with excellent support thrown in for good measure. Maybe it's some Oriental honour thing, but they treat their customers as more than just a cash cow.
eta: If you particularly want Swiss then find ones with Ronda quartz or Selita mechanical movements. Again, decent quality and sensible prices for what they are.
Edited by Variomatic on Saturday 16th May 23:58
This is worth looking at:
http://www.christopherward.co.uk/watches/sport/c7m...
It has the Ronda 3540.D movement, and they operate an exceptional return/guarantee.
(I admit it, I'm a fan of their stuff - I have 10 of them)
http://www.christopherward.co.uk/watches/sport/c7m...
It has the Ronda 3540.D movement, and they operate an exceptional return/guarantee.
(I admit it, I'm a fan of their stuff - I have 10 of them)
E
If it's reliable and accurate does an invisible movement matter?
I guess that leaves the choice down to case and band quality and the subjective element of design plus for some people brand snobbery.
If the movement matters, I would go auto as even the cheap ones are great engineering in minuture. I have a Tao with a glass back and the movement looks great. Of my various watches including omega auto, the Tissot is the most reliable and most accurate.
Variomatic said:
The current non-chrono Seamasters use Omega cal 1538, which is based on the ETA 255.461:
The recent (not 1970s) Seamaster quartz chronos use Omega 1675, which is an ETA 251.262 base (same as used by Breitling and some TAG Heuers):
Both are nicely made, repairable, movements and as well deserving as any quartz of the "Swiss made" reputation for quality.
The G10 used by Tissot and various others is an entirely different animal:
Look closely and you'll see 3 little dots / dimples. These are where they melt the movement together after assembly. Yes, it's ETA. yes, it's Swiss made. But no, it's not good quality. In fact, it fairly clearly owes more to this Chinese SL68 in design ethos than it does to the quality Swiss examples above:
In fact, the SL68 has an advantage over the G10 - at least it's 100% replaceable by a Hattori PC21* as a direct swap!
Interesting thanks. The recent (not 1970s) Seamaster quartz chronos use Omega 1675, which is an ETA 251.262 base (same as used by Breitling and some TAG Heuers):
Both are nicely made, repairable, movements and as well deserving as any quartz of the "Swiss made" reputation for quality.
The G10 used by Tissot and various others is an entirely different animal:
Look closely and you'll see 3 little dots / dimples. These are where they melt the movement together after assembly. Yes, it's ETA. yes, it's Swiss made. But no, it's not good quality. In fact, it fairly clearly owes more to this Chinese SL68 in design ethos than it does to the quality Swiss examples above:
In fact, the SL68 has an advantage over the G10 - at least it's 100% replaceable by a Hattori PC21* as a direct swap!
- Also very cheap and disposable, but very reliable and doesn't pretend to be anything it isn't!
If it's reliable and accurate does an invisible movement matter?
I guess that leaves the choice down to case and band quality and the subjective element of design plus for some people brand snobbery.
If the movement matters, I would go auto as even the cheap ones are great engineering in minuture. I have a Tao with a glass back and the movement looks great. Of my various watches including omega auto, the Tissot is the most reliable and most accurate.
Edited by blueg33 on Sunday 17th May 08:58
blueg33 said:
If it's reliable and accurate does an invisible movement matter?
No, of course not.The ethos of the G10 might annoy Variomatic, but the ethos is of disposability. You're not SUPPOSED to repair a G10, you swap it for a new one...
VM is very positive about Japanese movements, but in many cases, whilst you CAN repair/service a movement, there's no point for 99.999% of owners as it would cost them more to get it fixed/serviced than to replace the watch. (I recently bought a used watch and was quoted £50 more to service it than I'd paid for it! In the end I got a quote £230 less and it's now running fine...)
I don't know what VM charges to repair a Citizen or Seiko quartz chrono, but sense suggests that it's going to be a pretty labour intensive job and there's a minimum that you can charge per hour and make money. Swapping out a whole movement HAS to be more cost effective in a £300 watch...
There's a lot of sensitivity about Swatch's intention to force repairs through their own centres (which I share), but I think the concern over repairabilty of a movement that, currently, can be replaced for £50ish is missing the point...
M
Edited by marcosgt on Sunday 17th May 09:09
marcosgt said:
No, of course not.
The ethos of the G10 might annoy Variomatic, but the ethos is of disposability. You're not SUPPOSED to repair a G10, you swap it for a new one...
VM is very positive about Japanese movements, but in many cases, whilst you CAN repair/service a movement, there's no point for 99.999% of owners as it would cost them more to get it fixed/serviced than to replace the watch. (I recently bought a used watch and was quoted £50 more to service it than I'd paid for it! In the end I got a quote £230 less and it's now running fine...)
I don't know what VM charges to repair a Citizen or Seiko quartz chrono, but sense suggests that it's going to be a pretty labour intensive job and there's a minimum that you can charge per hour and make money. Swapping out a whole movement HAS to be more cost effective in a £300 watch...
There's a lot of sensitivity about Swatch's intention to force repairs through their own centres (which I share), but I think the concern over repairabilty of a movement that, currently, can be replaced for £50ish is missing the point...
M
I actually agree with just about everything there.The ethos of the G10 might annoy Variomatic, but the ethos is of disposability. You're not SUPPOSED to repair a G10, you swap it for a new one...
VM is very positive about Japanese movements, but in many cases, whilst you CAN repair/service a movement, there's no point for 99.999% of owners as it would cost them more to get it fixed/serviced than to replace the watch. (I recently bought a used watch and was quoted £50 more to service it than I'd paid for it! In the end I got a quote £230 less and it's now running fine...)
I don't know what VM charges to repair a Citizen or Seiko quartz chrono, but sense suggests that it's going to be a pretty labour intensive job and there's a minimum that you can charge per hour and make money. Swapping out a whole movement HAS to be more cost effective in a £300 watch...
There's a lot of sensitivity about Swatch's intention to force repairs through their own centres (which I share), but I think the concern over repairabilty of a movement that, currently, can be replaced for £50ish is missing the point...
M
Edited by marcosgt on Sunday 17th May 09:09
What concerns me is (only) "disposable" movements, were there's no prospect of keeping them going once they're discontinued, being marketed and sold as semi "luxury" pieces. Also, recommendations for regular servicing when servicing isn't possible apart from swapping the movement (but they don't tell you that).
With Citizen and Seiko I regularly service watches that are 20+ years old, with movements that have been obsolete for a decade or more. Are they "worth" repairing? Clearly, they are to the owner because they pay me to do so. Would I swap the movement instead if it was still available? Almost certainly yes, with a few exceptions. But, with the current crop of Tissot, once movement stocks are gone there'll be no option but to replace the entire watch.
Regardless of how I feel about Swatch policy elsewhere, to me a watch that can be kept running almost indefinitely is a better buy than one that will undoubtedly have to be replaced at some point because it's broken. If the repairable one costs less than the one you have to throw away ten the answer to the OP's question is very clear:
Yes, you can do better at (or below) that price point. Better objective quality, better support, not being tied to the maker's service prices and attitudes (such as insisting on service to replace a scratched glass) and better chance of keeping your new watch running for longer if you become attached to it. The only thing you lose out on in return for those benefits is the illusionof buying "Swiss quality".
eta: For the record, I make no bones about my dislike of Swatch group on other grounds because I don't want to be seen as having a hidden agenda. So I'm open about my dislike. But I still try to keep my advice on this sort of thing objective and, objectively, there's plenty of choice to spend your money better for a lot of reasons. The Chris Ward above is a good example!
Edited by Variomatic on Sunday 17th May 11:03
Totally agree about the autos, Mike - they're probably the best value out there if you want a Swiss auto that's likely to have backup (even if only through a dealer) for more than a couple of years after fashions change.
But, in quartz, you can do a LOT better for your money in every way but "name".
But, in quartz, you can do a LOT better for your money in every way but "name".
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