ISIS - Stronger than Anticipated?

[LastLight]

Grumfutock said:

Timmy40 said:

They are being picked up at a rate of one a day or so as they try to return, prior to going they were invisible. Not any more. Angry? Maybe if we'd send troops in, but we haven't, I'd say they are more likely to be dejected and depressed. Not so heroic/honorable as they thought getting shot at and torturing civilians.

Hogwash. They will be de-sanitized to the horror and wont give two hoots about barbarous acts here. So we know about the "one a day" being caught? OK what about the other two a day we dont catch?

However by all means believe what you wish. Personally I will go with facts, reality and what has happened else where in similar situations. I also can survive in the wild and dig a bloody mean bunker.

We should do what the right thinking intelligensia and leaders in Sweden want to do - free housing, benefits, counselling and help to withdraw drug and alcohol dependency(?) that would be sure to calm them. Be nice to have some more grateful, becalmed but active, determined types round to benefit society and the economy. For sure...

[rich85uk]

onyx39 said:

Reuters saying that they have seized control of the border between Iraq and Syria

Correct, that was the last one the Syrian government had control of.So they control all border crossing between Iraq and Syria, full control of Ramadi and Palmyra (meaning they control nearly half of Syria)

They also gained months worth of ammunition and over 100 army vehicles. All that in a week...

[Transmitter Man]

rich85uk said:

Correct, that was the last one the Syrian government had control of.So they control all border crossing between Iraq and Syria, full control of Ramadi and Palmyra (meaning they control nearly half of Syria)

They also gained months worth of ammunition and over 100 army vehicles. All that in a week...

'Their' half of Syria is 90% desert.

Phil

[spadriver]

Time for drastic action I think, fkwits leave-stay left.Much more bombing needed (daisy cutters work well over large distances) if that doesnt work ------

[AJS-]

I don't think it's exactly a case of them being stronger so much as a problem which can't be bombed out of existence in the way a despot's military equipment can be.

The fact is that ISIS clearly has a lot of support from a large section of the population of the areas in which they operate. Short of killing everyone you can't bomb this support away and there's a strong chance that bombing will actually strengthen it. Iraq has been either occupied or at war, and in both cases heavily bombed, for quarter of a century, and it clearly hasn't worked.

When Lord Elgin was the High Commissioner to China in 1860 he quite effectively ended the second Opium War in part by ordering the complete destruction of the Old Summer Palace which was a potent symbol of Chinese imperial power. Either an act of supremely vindictive hooliganism, or a stroke of bubble popping genius. Possibly both. Either way the symbolism of it was, and remains, very powerful and arguably achieved what years of military campaigning had failed to do.

I don't know the area well enough to know what if anything could be done to similarly undermine the persuasive message ISIS put across, or even if this is the best approach; but unless you somehow remove the hold ISIS have over a large section of the population in the areas in which they operate we have no chance at all of destroying them.

[V8 Fettler]

The West could subdue and subjugate ISIS within one week of Western troops arriving in the battlefield(s) if the political will was there. The current situation has primarily arisen from the lack of long term political objectives.

[Elroy Blue]

The instant Western troops land in Syria/Iraq, those that oppose IS will join them to fight the Infidels.

IS are an abomination, but the inept, local Governments need to sort their own mess out and stop sitting back waiting for Western Governments to do the work for them.

[ewenm]

V8 Fettler said:

The West could subdue and subjugate ISIS within one week of Western troops arriving in the battlefield(s) if the political will was there. The current situation has primarily arisen from the lack of long term political objectives.

As various such actions have shown the problem isn't winning the battle/war, it is how do you get out afterwards without leaving a massive power vacuum and another ststorm.

Perhaps containment is worth trying rather than intervention. Crappy situation all round though.

[Elroy Blue]

Ramadi was defended by 2500 well armed troops. The ran from 200 IS fighters in pick up trucks. Nothing will change until they sort out this staggering level of incompetence.

[Pesty]

Elroy Blue said:

Ramadi was defended by 2500 well armed troops. The ran from 200 IS fighters in pick up trucks. Nothing will change until they sort out this staggering level of incompetence.

Armed and trained by the west with billions and over decades. Yet still useless.

They just drop everything and run without fighting then die on their knees with the weapons they left behind. They think like children. How stupid do you have to be to not even think of destroying equipment you leave behind.

It's a pattern constantly repeated too. 3000 in one base most killed when rounded up fleeing by people they outmanned ten to one.

Or the video I saw of 5 Iraqi special forces guys armed to the teeth with grenades rifles and ammo who surrender to three guys who then shot them in the head.
fking mental

[Timmy40]

Transmitter Man said:

rich85uk said:

Correct, that was the last one the Syrian government had control of.So they control all border crossing between Iraq and Syria, full control of Ramadi and Palmyra (meaning they control nearly half of Syria)

They also gained months worth of ammunition and over 100 army vehicles. All that in a week...

'Their' half of Syria is 90% desert.

Phil

With a whole load of Gas Wells vital to the Syrian economy/keeping the lights on.

[scorp]

Boggles my mind why people keep surrendering to them, what do they expect will happen ?

[Four Litre]

Elroy Blue said:

Ramadi was defended by 2500 well armed troops. The ran from 200 IS fighters in pick up trucks. Nothing will change until they sort out this staggering level of incompetence.

I was completely unaware that the French had been involved in the training of Iraqi troops?

[onyx39]

Pesty said:

Elroy Blue said:

Ramadi was defended by 2500 well armed troops. The ran from 200 IS fighters in pick up trucks. Nothing will change until they sort out this staggering level of incompetence.

Armed and trained by the west with billions and over decades. Yet still useless.

They just drop everything and run without fighting then die on their knees with the weapons they left behind. They think like children. How stupid do you have to be to not even think of destroying equipment you leave behind.

It's a pattern constantly repeated too. 3000 in one base most killed when rounded up fleeing by people they outmanned ten to one.

Or the video I saw of 5 Iraqi special forces guys armed to the teeth with grenades rifles and ammo who surrender to three guys who then shot them in the head.
fking mental

True... and I am not a soldier, and would not want to be, but it must be a tad worrying to know that, if you were captured, you would probably be decapitated.

[wc98]

onyx39 said:

True... and I am not a soldier, and would not want to be, but it must be a tad worrying to know that, if you were captured, you would probably be decapitated.

from a video i recently saw on you tube decapitation would be welcomed by most if captured. one of the other options appears to be cutting off your genitals and biting the end off while you watch. lovely people.

[TEKNOPUG]

Four Litre said:

Elroy Blue said:

Ramadi was defended by 2500 well armed troops. The ran from 200 IS fighters in pick up trucks. Nothing will change until they sort out this staggering level of incompetence.

I was completely unaware that the French had been involved in the training of Iraqi troops?

It was actually a French-Italian joint training course, to ensure that they learnt both to surrender and swap sides

[onyx39]

wc98 said:

onyx39 said:

True... and I am not a soldier, and would not want to be, but it must be a tad worrying to know that, if you were captured, you would probably be decapitated.

from a video i recently saw on you tube decapitation would be welcomed by most if captured. one of the other options appears to be cutting off your genitals and biting the end off while you watch. lovely people.

nice.

[TEKNOPUG]

onyx39 said:

wc98 said:

onyx39 said:

True... and I am not a soldier, and would not want to be, but it must be a tad worrying to know that, if you were captured, you would probably be decapitated.

from a video i recently saw on you tube decapitation would be welcomed by most if captured. one of the other options appears to be cutting off your genitals and biting the end off while you watch. lovely people.

nice.

You'd think that it would be counter-productive to publicise such acts. In as much as opposing forces are not likely to surrender and be more prepared to fight, if that is the treatment they can expect. Although I suppose equally (and perhaps has become apparent) is that opposing forces are more likely to run away, than risk being captured.

[AJS-]

V8 Fettler said:

The West could subdue and subjugate ISIS within one week of Western troops arriving in the battlefield(s) if the political will was there. The current situation has primarily arisen from the lack of long term political objectives.

Political will to what though?
It's all very well to repel an ISIS insurgency but then what? You either have to occupy it for decades and root it out by building a functioning society, or somehow make sure that it doesn't come back.

[Pan Pan Pan]

According to the news this morning several thousand Iraqi troops were seen off, by 400 Isis fighters.
That may explain why US air power was not able to detect them advancing, and do something about it.
One would think that a larger force might have been sort of noticeable.
I always wondered why, when our forces there were being attacked / pinned down by terrorists, they could not just call up some air power, and attack the terrorists (from above and behind so to speak)
Just a thought.