Small claims court - defendant solicitor harrassment

[Buzz84]

Hiya, hopefully someone can give me some advice - I'll try and explain but I hope you can understand if I keep it vague

We ordered a custom item to be made from a company who specialise in the area. The item ended up being very late, faulty and not fit for purpose and despite several attempts was never completed / faults rectified satisfactorily.
After lots of discussion with trading standards and the citizens advice bureau we rejected the item and requested our money back.The company refused the refund and never did get the item finished.

Alternative arrangements were made for an off the shelf item as time was a factor.

So after more advice from CAB we have pursued the small claims court route to recover our money. we have followed the courts instructions and have progressed along. The evidence has all been submitted to the court and we are just counting down to the hearing in a few weeks

Now the defendants solicitors are demanding all of the details and receipts for the "alternative" that we got. and are threatening to get a court order (and charge us to do so) to make us provide it.
The alternative has no bearing on the case and we are not claiming for it. The claim is simply for the money we paid them and the court fees

Now finally to the question, can they get a court order to do this??? We don't really feel like we should as their solicitors have been obstructive if we request anything, the date for the evidence submission has passed, and we've already supplied the court (and copied them in on) all relevant evidence needed for the case. Also if we did provide it all they will do is find some way to use it against us!!!

I really hope that is clear enough and any help will be greatly appreciated and I'll try and answer any questions without giving too much away.

Thanks - Buzz84

[photosnob]

They can ask the court to order you give anything which can be helpful to them... But they have to demonstrate to the court why they need it. They would also struggle (understatement) to get a costs award because of this in the county court... I'd give it to them. It's not going to make a bit of difference from the sounds of things. They are probably just angling to see the date you purchased the new stuff... So they can see if the dates fit in. If they do I'd let them have it.

[mondeoman]

As a layman, I'd've said that the replacement is none of their business... You could just as well have decided that you didn't want anything as the first was such ste.

You made a claim, they get an opportunity to put their defence against the claim, then the judge talks to both of you and makes a judgement.

Let them try and get a court order, I really can't see how it is relevant to their defence. When you win, you get to claim your costs, which would include this. If, for some strange reason, you lose, you'll have to pay their costs anyway, so its all a bit pointless them trying to get you to pay for it, as if they win, you pay anyway.

[soprano]

Buzz84 said:

Hiya, hopefully someone can give me some advice - I'll try and explain but I hope you can understand if I keep it vague

We ordered a custom item to be made from a company who specialise in the area. The item ended up being very late, faulty and not fit for purpose and despite several attempts was never completed / faults rectified satisfactorily.
After lots of discussion with trading standards and the citizens advice bureau we rejected the item and requested our money back.The company refused the refund and never did get the item finished.

Alternative arrangements were made for an off the shelf item as time was a factor.

So after more advice from CAB we have pursued the small claims court route to recover our money. we have followed the courts instructions and have progressed along. The evidence has all been submitted to the court and we are just counting down to the hearing in a few weeks

Now the defendants solicitors are demanding all of the details and receipts for the "alternative" that we got. and are threatening to get a court order (and charge us to do so) to make us provide it.
The alternative has no bearing on the case and we are not claiming for it. The claim is simply for the money we paid them and the court fees

Now finally to the question, can they get a court order to do this??? We don't really feel like we should as their solicitors have been obstructive if we request anything, the date for the evidence submission has passed, and we've already supplied the court (and copied them in on) all relevant evidence needed for the case. Also if we did provide it all they will do is find some way to use it against us!!!

I really hope that is clear enough and any help will be greatly appreciated and I'll try and answer any questions without giving too much away.

Thanks - Buzz84

They can make an application for specific disclosure but I cannot see why they would. It's pretty rare in a small claim.

I assume you paid for whatever you ordered and are claiming for that sum through the county court? I suppose the only bearing it may have is to support an argument that you changed your mind and that is why you are claiming repayment of the sums paid. Eg ordered some bespoke curtains for £1000, found some off the shelf for £200 and decided you no longer wanted their item. They could advance that as an argument I suppose.

[JustinP1]

mondeoman said:

Let them try and get a court order, I really can't see how it is relevant to their defence. When you win, you get to claim your costs, which would include this. If, for some strange reason, you lose, you'll have to pay their costs anyway, so its all a bit pointless them trying to get you to pay for it, as if they win, you pay anyway.

Presuming this is on the small claims track, each party pays their legal costs, win or lose.

The exception to that is if a party has behaved unreasonably. That's a reasonably high bar.

The only costs involved would be witness costs for coming to court. So, the OP can claim for a day off work, and parking and mileage at 45p a mile.

If the other party were looking for a court order, they'd be investing IIRC £80 in court costs, plus a good few hours of solicitors at £100+ an hour.

What sums are we looking at here, in the total claim?

[Buzz84]

Thank you for your replies

photosnob said:

They can ask the court to order you give anything which can be helpful to them... But they have to demonstrate to the court why they need it. They would also struggle (understatement) to get a costs award because of this in the county court... I'd give it to them. It's not going to make a bit of difference from the sounds of things. They are probably just angling to see the date you purchased the new stuff... So they can see if the dates fit in. If they do I'd let them have it.

The solicitors have been obstructive and have tried delaying the process at every step, so we don't really want to co-operate with their requests (that have not been polite). we don't believe that it has any bearing and we don't want to be bullied into it. Unfortunately the replacement was sourced before the actual refusal but well into the dispute, hence our hesitance. but I guess if they were to apply then we would just have to provide.

mondeoman said:

As a layman, I'd've said that the replacement is none of their business... You could just as well have decided that you didn't want anything as the first was such ste.

You made a claim, they get an opportunity to put their defence against the claim, then the judge talks to both of you and makes a judgement.

Let them try and get a court order, I really can't see how it is relevant to their defence. When you win, you get to claim your costs, which would include this. If, for some strange reason, you lose, you'll have to pay their costs anyway, so its all a bit pointless them trying to get you to pay for it, as if they win, you pay anyway.

Yeah, that's our view, The replacement is none of their business. We have all of the defects documented, photographed and all of the correspondence between us to show all of the issues that went on for months. Their whole defence is to not acknowledge that and say we changed our minds, which is definitely not the case.
Under the small claims if we were to loose we shouldn't be liable for the solicitors cost - all advice says it is possible but only under rare situations that this would be awarded - small claims is supposed to be accessible and shouldn't require legal advice.

soprano said:

They can make an application for specific disclosure but I cannot see why they would. It's pretty rare in a small claim.

I assume you paid for whatever you ordered and are claiming for that sum through the county court? I suppose the only bearing it may have is to support an argument that you changed your mind and that is why you are claiming repayment of the sums paid. Eg ordered some bespoke curtains for £1000, found some off the shelf for £200 and decided you no longer wanted their item. They could advance that as an argument I suppose.

Yes that's right, the claim is for the ordered item plus the court fees. we were advised by the CAB that we could have claimed for the replacement also but didn't feel that was right, We just want our money back. That is their angle of attack, that we changed our mind, so this information would suit them.
The original item had long been discontinued and could not be sourced, hence the custom made one. The replacement was of a similar price off the shelf but a completely different design/look.

[Buzz84]

JustinP1 said:

mondeoman said:

Let them try and get a court order, I really can't see how it is relevant to their defence. When you win, you get to claim your costs, which would include this. If, for some strange reason, you lose, you'll have to pay their costs anyway, so its all a bit pointless them trying to get you to pay for it, as if they win, you pay anyway.

Presuming this is on the small claims track, each party pays their legal costs, win or lose.

The exception to that is if a party has behaved unreasonably. That's a reasonably high bar.

The only costs involved would be witness costs for coming to court. So, the OP can claim for a day off work, and parking and mileage at 45p a mile.

If the other party were looking for a court order, they'd be investing IIRC £80 in court costs, plus a good few hours of solicitors at £100+ an hour.

What sums are we looking at here, in the total claim?

Yes our case is on the small claims track and that is how we understood it for the defendants legal costs, which I think is right, small claims is supposed to be accessible and they have chosen to use a solicitor.

We understand that there are other things that we could claim for, we also have 2 witnesses but no legal representation. We aren't claiming for anything more than the original amount paid to the company plus the court fees. the total claim is just under £1000.

[photosnob]

I wouldn't give them it... Unless they had an order. But they are going to ask you to your face in court... And then they are going to ask why you didn't tell them that when they asked.

Personally I'd lie and say I no longer had the receipt and paid in cash. But that sort of advice isn't well received on this forum.

[Jasandjules]

I would be minded to write back and say something like:

This claim is for defective products supplied by your client. At this stage we make no claim for the additional losses we incurred in sourcing and installing an alternative. Therefore the same is not relevant to these proceedings.

That said, if you can explain how you believe this issue is relevant to the claim as it stands then we will consider your request.

[nick0137]

You say that their case is that you changed your mind. In other words, rather than the product that was supplied being defective (or so defective that you were entitled to reject it and terminate the contract for repudiatory breach), they say that after you had entered into the contract with them you found an off the shelf product (which, I presume was much cheaper than the bespoke product that they had agreed to come up with), decided to save some money, and came up with some spurious reasons for rejecting what they produced. In that context, the type and cost of the replacement product that you bought is of some relevance, and the date that you purchased the replacement product is of perhaps great relevance ie if you bought the replacement before terminating the contract with them that might significantly colour the court's view of your motivation and, therefore, of the validity of your complaints about the product defects. Hence, why the solicitors are asking for this information and why the court may well require you to produce it. Of course, on the other hand, if the evidence you adduce in relation to the defects is compelling then this will be just so much water under the bridge....

[JustinP1]

Yes.

Playing Devil's Advocate here, that is their only defence. Further to that, and playing out their possible viewpoint, they might even believe that the decision to buy elsewhere was much earlier than it was, and that a series of complaints and rejections were simply a sham.

Unless you act unreasonably, you won't pay their costs, win or lose. There's no official definition of 'unreasonable behaviour', it's up tot he Judge to make a decision. I've been awarded costs on the small claims track, but the defendant was constantly in trouble with the court for failure to supply paperwork, and didn't turn up for the hearing.


The more likely scenario is that they don't actually want to go to a hearing. Even a crap solicitor is £100 an hour, and they must know they are losing this money, along with 3 hours minimum going to court.

What they are aiming to do is get leverage to make you waver in your resolve. Then, most likely, offer you a settlement amount. This is usually at a point where you can get your hearing fee back. However, it is often negotiated days before the hearing.

[speedking31]

So having been without the use of the item for a period longer than you expected, you sourced an inferior replacement to allow its use while you awaited completion of the bespoke item. More time passed and it was obvious that the bespoke item would not be completed to your satisfaction so you cancelled

[Buzz84]

photosnob said:

I wouldn't give them it... Unless they had an order. But they are going to ask you to your face in court... And then they are going to ask why you didn't tell them that when they asked.

Personally I'd lie and say I no longer had the receipt and paid in cash. But that sort of advice isn't well received on this forum.

No, we wont lie, but it would be easy enough to have lost the "reciept". When questioned (and we're sure it will) we are more than happy to discuss in court and be able to explain anything with it, a second item was sourced as we'd lost faith in their ability to provide a correct item and worrying about being ready for the specific date we needed.
We'd just rather not provide it to them for any prep. their solicitors have been rather unpleasant to deal with, they demand stuff from us yet when we request anything from them they point blank refuse and ignore us.

Jasandjules said:

I would be minded to write back and say something like:

This claim is for defective products supplied by your client. At this stage we make no claim for the additional losses we incurred in sourcing and installing an alternative. Therefore the same is not relevant to these proceedings.

That said, if you can explain how you believe this issue is relevant to the claim as it stands then we will consider your request.

That's exactly what we want to do and will do as we believe it to be completely irrelevant to the quality of their item and the issues this dispute stems from. I've just come on here to see what they could actually do

nick0137 said:

You say that their case is that you changed your mind. In other words, rather than the product that was supplied being defective (or so defective that you were entitled to reject it and terminate the contract for repudiatory breach), they say that after you had entered into the contract with them you found an off the shelf product (which, I presume was much cheaper than the bespoke product that they had agreed to come up with), decided to save some money, and came up with some spurious reasons for rejecting what they produced. In that context, the type and cost of the replacement product that you bought is of some relevance, and the date that you purchased the replacement product is of perhaps great relevance ie if you bought the replacement before terminating the contract with them that might significantly colour the court's view of your motivation and, therefore, of the validity of your complaints about the product defects. Hence, why the solicitors are asking for this information and why the court may well require you to produce it. Of course, on the other hand, if the evidence you adduce in relation to the defects is compelling then this will be just so much water under the bridge....

You presume incorrectly, the prices were near enough the same. We have all of the dispute communications (letters posted recorded, emails, witness statements and photos) they were given multiple occasions to rectify the issues (and in rectifying them they caused even more)

If it had been a simple case of changing our minds then we would have accepted the item and sold it on ourselves and hoped to break even with any loss being a fact of life and a result of that decision change. but we couldn't do this as it wasn't ever finished or right.

To be honest, seeing that they have been served with all our evidence, in my opinion they are worried and clutching at straws.

JustinP1 said:

Yes.

Playing Devil's Advocate here, that is their only defence. Further to that, and playing out their possible viewpoint, they might even believe that the decision to buy elsewhere was much earlier than it was, and that a series of complaints and rejections were simply a sham.

Unless you act unreasonably, you won't pay their costs, win or lose. There's no official definition of 'unreasonable behaviour', it's up tot he Judge to make a decision. I've been awarded costs on the small claims track, but the defendant was constantly in trouble with the court for failure to supply paperwork, and didn't turn up for the hearing.


The more likely scenario is that they don't actually want to go to a hearing. Even a crap solicitor is £100 an hour, and they must know they are losing this money, along with 3 hours minimum going to court.

What they are aiming to do is get leverage to make you waver in your resolve. Then, most likely, offer you a settlement amount. This is usually at a point where you can get your hearing fee back. However, it is often negotiated days before the hearing.

Yes that is true fortunately the dispute correspondance was initiated before any second item purchase, but that was before the rejection. The small claims track has been easy enough to follow (for us at least) and encourages people to act for themselves - if it were to award legal fees then that would make it far less appealing, as we would have to pay their costs for their decision to take up legal services.

It also makes it far more confusing as to why they are carrying on, as even if they win now they will most likely have bills that exceed the amount that we have paid them in the first place. They claim the item to be fine and say it is worth far more than we paid so it would have been far simple to have refunded us and then sold it on for the higher price they claim it to be worth.

speedking31 said:

So having been without the use of the item for a period longer than you expected, you sourced an inferior replacement to allow its use while you awaited completion of the bespoke item. More time passed and it was obvious that the bespoke item would not be completed to your satisfaction so you cancelled

Yeah pretty much spot on

Thank you all for your replies, sometimes its just a little confusing when being confronted by legal speak!