Small numberplate font
Discussion
TommoAE86 said:
Why should I have to mount anything when I could just put something slightly smaller in the place that is already there. Not exactly rocket science...
Because the law says that the smaller plate can only be used if the area precludes the fitting of a standard sized one. In NONE of the pictures so far does it do so. There's no legal exemption for perceived cosmetic appeal.Even then, the smaller typeface is 64x44mm (same as is allowed on bikes), rather than 79x50mm. Not a big difference. Empty space around the edge can be minimal - 5mm sides and top, 13mm bottom - against 11mm all round on the bigger characters.
http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2002/2687/regul...
http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2001/561/schedu...
TommoAE86 said:
It's sort of pointless me posting but you have just said (with links) what I said in my first post.
Great, so we're all agreed that the ever-so-slightly-smaller "import" (legal-bike-size) plates only apply to non-EU market import vehicles where it's physically impossible ("precludes") to fit a normal size plate, even with a bracket or stand-off, so none of those illustrated in this thread. Skyline included.
I have always considered number plates to be utterly hideous plastic carbuncles that ruin the looks of a vehicle, and have fitted slightly smaller front plates in the past to lesson the impact of the ugly attachment.
I have had a £30 fine for it many many years ago, but the police don't seem interested anymore.
I got pulled on my Kawasaki bike a year or so ago and that had a rear 'letterbox' plate on it which was really very small, and that traffic officer that stopped me wasn't bothered in the slightest about the plate but had stopped me as my bike was showing no MOT on the ANPR system (I had the MOT done that same morning and had he paperwork with me). I told him I thought he had pulled me for the plate, but he said "no, the camera read it just fine, I don't have a problem with it".
I have had a £30 fine for it many many years ago, but the police don't seem interested anymore.
I got pulled on my Kawasaki bike a year or so ago and that had a rear 'letterbox' plate on it which was really very small, and that traffic officer that stopped me wasn't bothered in the slightest about the plate but had stopped me as my bike was showing no MOT on the ANPR system (I had the MOT done that same morning and had he paperwork with me). I told him I thought he had pulled me for the plate, but he said "no, the camera read it just fine, I don't have a problem with it".
TooMany2cvs said:
Because the law says that the smaller plate can only be used if the area precludes the fitting of a standard sized one. In NONE of the pictures so far does it do so. There's no legal exemption for perceived cosmetic appeal.
Even then, the smaller typeface is 64x44mm (same as is allowed on bikes), rather than 79x50mm. Not a big difference. Empty space around the edge can be minimal - 5mm sides and top, 13mm bottom - against 11mm all round on the bigger characters.
http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2002/2687/regul...
http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2001/561/schedu...
That's your opinion but in the case of Skylines, for which I can speak after owning a few, the permitted recess does preclude the fitting of a standard plate and therefore since these cars does not hold type approval the "special case" rule applies, certainly in the eyes of the law rather than an internet forum Even then, the smaller typeface is 64x44mm (same as is allowed on bikes), rather than 79x50mm. Not a big difference. Empty space around the edge can be minimal - 5mm sides and top, 13mm bottom - against 11mm all round on the bigger characters.
http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2002/2687/regul...
http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2001/561/schedu...
liner33 said:
TooMany2cvs said:
Because the law says that the smaller plate can only be used if the area precludes the fitting of a standard sized one. In NONE of the pictures so far does it do so. There's no legal exemption for perceived cosmetic appeal.
Even then, the smaller typeface is 64x44mm (same as is allowed on bikes), rather than 79x50mm. Not a big difference. Empty space around the edge can be minimal - 5mm sides and top, 13mm bottom - against 11mm all round on the bigger characters.
http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2002/2687/regul...
http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2001/561/schedu...
That's your opinion but in the case of Skylines, for which I can speak after owning a few, the permitted recess does preclude the fitting of a standard plate and therefore since these cars does not hold type approval the "special case" rule applies, certainly in the eyes of the law rather than an internet forum Even then, the smaller typeface is 64x44mm (same as is allowed on bikes), rather than 79x50mm. Not a big difference. Empty space around the edge can be minimal - 5mm sides and top, 13mm bottom - against 11mm all round on the bigger characters.
http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2002/2687/regul...
http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2001/561/schedu...
The small area designed for a smaller foreign plate does not prevent a larger plate from being fitted nor does it make it impossible to fit a standard size 52cm plate. It is very easy to fit an adaptor on the small recess and hence the normal size plate is able to be fitted very neatly.
The law uses a very defined set of interpretation rules, the first of which is the literal rule. That means that if the literal interpretation of the words in the legislation is not ambiguous then no more rules of interpretation are required. The Oxford Dictionary meaning is very clear and by no stretch of the imagination is it "impossible" to fit a standard plate to a Skyline, nor does the Skyline front registration recess "prevent from happening" the fitting of a normal plate. So the law is clear but not in the way you have interpreted it nor, I would say, a court would interpret it.
A court may consider this question "does the shape and construction of the car make it impossible to fit a standard size UK registration plate?" Their answer must surely be NO
Maybe there is a market for adaptors.
The owners of cars with these undersized plates fitted (not the legal reduced sized plates for imported cars but the stupidly small ones shown in some of the pictures in this thread),should come clean!
It has nothing to do with with the size of the plate recess, they're fitted because the owners think they look cool, just as some people with German cars think they look cool with faux German style plates fitted and the chavs who think it looks cool to leave the front number plate off and have it sitting on the dashboard instead.
It's the modern day equivalent of those knobs who "back in the day" thought that italic font plates looked cool.
the reality is, one way or another there is no reason why they cannot run a legal front number plate, they just think they're the coolest guys out there on the roads.
As for:
Back in the late 80's through to the early 2000's there were loads of dodgy plates on the road: Illegal size, illegal fonts, illegal backgrounds, illegal styles etc., etc.
(I seem to recall seeing on one "Police, Camera", action/"Roadwars" style programme, a driver who was caught running a number plate that had never been issued by the DVLA, he'd simply gone into Halfords or wherever, had a "personal" plate made up that he liked and put it on his car claiming he didn't realise you could only have officially released registration numbers!
).
With the advent of ANPR and stricter MOT regulations concerning number plates, the number of illegal plates has dropped.
That's not to say that people don't run illegal plates any more (these days they tend to be illegally spaced or of an illegal size, as shown in this thread), but there has been a bigger clamp down on them than there used to be.
The funny thing is the fuss that people make if they do get caught with illegal plates on their car/bike!
They don't seem to grasp the simple concept that if you abide by the Law on registration plates then you are far less likely to become the focus of attention of the Police than if you don't. (I guess it highlights their mental ability! - Bet they like Armadillo's too!
[For the younger generation: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bqeGxMgVOHI ] )
It has nothing to do with with the size of the plate recess, they're fitted because the owners think they look cool, just as some people with German cars think they look cool with faux German style plates fitted and the chavs who think it looks cool to leave the front number plate off and have it sitting on the dashboard instead.
It's the modern day equivalent of those knobs who "back in the day" thought that italic font plates looked cool.
the reality is, one way or another there is no reason why they cannot run a legal front number plate, they just think they're the coolest guys out there on the roads.
As for:
Cliftonite said:
My perception is that there are more crap, amended or just plain unlawful plates around now than ever before........
Can't say I agree.Back in the late 80's through to the early 2000's there were loads of dodgy plates on the road: Illegal size, illegal fonts, illegal backgrounds, illegal styles etc., etc.
(I seem to recall seeing on one "Police, Camera", action/"Roadwars" style programme, a driver who was caught running a number plate that had never been issued by the DVLA, he'd simply gone into Halfords or wherever, had a "personal" plate made up that he liked and put it on his car claiming he didn't realise you could only have officially released registration numbers!
).With the advent of ANPR and stricter MOT regulations concerning number plates, the number of illegal plates has dropped.
That's not to say that people don't run illegal plates any more (these days they tend to be illegally spaced or of an illegal size, as shown in this thread), but there has been a bigger clamp down on them than there used to be.
The funny thing is the fuss that people make if they do get caught with illegal plates on their car/bike!
They don't seem to grasp the simple concept that if you abide by the Law on registration plates then you are far less likely to become the focus of attention of the Police than if you don't. (I guess it highlights their mental ability! - Bet they like Armadillo's too!
[For the younger generation: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bqeGxMgVOHI ] )Around 1998, the personal import of new/used-auction cars from Japan started to become very popular.profitable and soon after you saw a lot of smaller plates propping up. Especially in cars with front mount intercoolers, where owners didn't want airflow restricted.
The Saxo owners club (and equivalent), just copied it when they started covering their cars with glue and drove through halfords.
The Saxo owners club (and equivalent), just copied it when they started covering their cars with glue and drove through halfords.
liner33 said:
That's your opinion but in the case of Skylines, for which I can speak after owning a few, the permitted recess does preclude the fitting of a standard plate and therefore since these cars does not hold type approval the "special case" rule applies, certainly in the eyes of the law rather than an internet forum
Correct.IVA approval applies to the whole car, not one end of it.
So if it gets approval to use a smaller plate on one end, usually the rear, that approval also applies to the size of plate on the other end of the car, usually the front.
TooMany2cvs said:
Because when bikes did have 'em, they were bloody dangerous.
At the pearly gates..........'was it the numberplate on the front of the bike that killed you'? .......'No I think it was the norton it was attached to doing 70mph!!!'So in this day and age we could not find a material to make a safe plate? As its so important to national security, and before we say about ANPR being able to read it rewind a bit to where a guy got pulled up for no MOT as the ANPR read his tiny illegal plate. Its amazing what bothers some people.swerni said:
Roo said:
liner33 said:
That's your opinion but in the case of Skylines, for which I can speak after owning a few, the permitted recess does preclude the fitting of a standard plate and therefore since these cars does not hold type approval the "special case" rule applies, certainly in the eyes of the law rather than an internet forum
Correct.IVA approval applies to the whole car, not one end of it.
So if it gets approval to use a smaller plate on one end, usually the rear, that approval also applies to the size of plate on the other end of the car, usually the front.
I'm contemplating something very old and American, a plate would look crap.
tapereel said:
The small area designed for a smaller foreign plate does not prevent a larger plate from being fitted nor does it make it impossible to fit a standard size 52cm plate. It is very easy to fit an adaptor on the small recess and hence the normal size plate is able to be fitted very neatly.
Maybe you should stick to posting on speeding threads because the bit in bold is irrelevant (see below). This canard was originated by TooMany2cvs and you've fallen into the same trap. tapereel said:
A court may consider this question "does the shape and construction of the car make it impossible to fit a standard size UK registration plate?" Their answer must surely be NO
I disagree. The court has to start from the position of whether the car is as the manufacturer constructed it.tapereel said:
Maybe there is a market for adaptors.
Whether there is or not, if the adaptor is not OEM (see above) then it's irrelevant.On my Jap import, I can categorically state that it is physically impossible to fit a normal UK size 7 character plate into the rear bumper recess (the one on the UK version is wider). At the front, it is the opposite. There is an OEM holder which will only accommodate one of the 'square' format 2 line ones. As the car also doesn't have European Community Whole Vehicle Type Approval the smaller font is 100% legal in compliance with the 2002 amendment to the Regs.
I had a roadside 'discussion' with plod about this about 6 years ago. I politely suggested he was mistaken but he wasn't having any of it until I told him I would happily see him in court where he might end up with egg on face. As back up I gave him the copy of Section 14A which I keep in the glovebox for just that reason. He was unaware that Parliament had moved the goalposts 7 years earlier.
Red Devil said:
tapereel said:
A court may consider this question "does the shape and construction of the car make it impossible to fit a standard size UK registration plate?" Their answer must surely be NO
I disagree. The court has to start from the position of whether the car is as the manufacturer constructed it.Roo said:
liner33 said:
That's your opinion but in the case of Skylines, for which I can speak after owning a few, the permitted recess does preclude the fitting of a standard plate and therefore since these cars does not hold type approval the "special case" rule applies, certainly in the eyes of the law rather than an internet forum
Correct.IVA approval applies to the whole car, not one end of it.
So if it gets approval to use a smaller plate on one end, usually the rear, that approval also applies to the size of plate on the other end of the car, usually the front.
TooMany2cvs said:
Red Devil said:
tapereel said:
A court may consider this question "does the shape and construction of the car make it impossible to fit a standard size UK registration plate?" Their answer must surely be NO
I disagree. The court has to start from the position of whether the car is as the manufacturer constructed it.The court certainly will not start to invent wording unless it is required to and there is no provision in law or its interpretation for making up a starting position beyond reading what the law says first.
Does the law say "as the manufacturer constructed it"? If not then that isn't the starting position.
Edited to add: I can't think why a vehicle could not have a plate that would have the size and spacing correct. If you can sit a person in the car there must be sufficient room to fit a plate that has the correct size and spacing for the characters.
Edited by tapereel on Monday 25th May 14:18
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