My dog has changed. I feel devastated, really need advice
Discussion
Evening guys.
Thanks for taking the time to read this. I'll try and summarise as best I can to keep it short.
Harley is a Lab crossed with an Irish terrier, he basically looks like a small yellow lab. Got him at 6 months old having lived as a field dog amongst a stables with no actual owner. I was asked if I'd take him on and I did. Realised very quickly he was intelligent and he picked up training very fast. Had him 2 years now and he does Agility, loads of pointless but cool tricks, he comes to work with me every day and he comes to the pub with me. We're pretty much inseparable.
2 weeks ago a massive German Shepherd came bolting up to him and the owner looked properly rough, says to his mate oh s**t he's gonna kill that dog, GSD comes over snarling and snapping and attacked Harley, I didn't have chance to react the next thing Harley turns into terminator/predator....grabs GSD by the face and shook violently, then pins it to the floor by it's neck, I call him off and he instantly reacts, GSD runs away yelping covered in blood. Harley then wags his tail looking at his ball ready to play again. I was a little shocked as I thought we were both about to get eaten by this GSD.
Now he's always been a bit wary of strangers but never barks or anything just slightly backs off from them, however since the GSD incident he's properly twitchy and has barked at a few strangers. Then tonight I go to a BBQ function with a club I'm part of, lots of new people but the function was on an airfield so I had to have Harley on a lead, usually at works functions he runs about and everyone plays with him. I'm helping to cook then all of a sudden I hear a bark and turn to see a guy flinching away. I was horrified to see Harley had actually bit his hand and punctured the skin. The guy INSTANTLY took responsibility saying it was his fault and Harley probably felt threatened. I apologised continuously before quickly taking Harley home. I put him in the house and returned to BBQ to continue apologising.
Turns out the guy is very switched on and we chatted for a while about how Harley was in unfamiliar territory, tied up, a stranger etc etc. but that's not the point, what he did was inexcusable and COMPLETELY out
Of character. I don't know what's happened since the German shepherd fight but he's changed and the dog that I used to take to old granny's to make them love life and all that jazz is now completely unpredictable. He's part of the family and I can't imagine my life without him in it.
I think it's got something to do with me and anxiety he has about being away from me, but I don't know. I know that I may not get any response to this but tbh I just wanted to blurt out. If anyone has any advice then please feel free to share.
I'm well aware of the mantra "there's no bad dogs just bad owners" so I'm constantly analysing what I have done and what I need to do.
Thanks guys.
Ben
Thanks for taking the time to read this. I'll try and summarise as best I can to keep it short.
Harley is a Lab crossed with an Irish terrier, he basically looks like a small yellow lab. Got him at 6 months old having lived as a field dog amongst a stables with no actual owner. I was asked if I'd take him on and I did. Realised very quickly he was intelligent and he picked up training very fast. Had him 2 years now and he does Agility, loads of pointless but cool tricks, he comes to work with me every day and he comes to the pub with me. We're pretty much inseparable.
2 weeks ago a massive German Shepherd came bolting up to him and the owner looked properly rough, says to his mate oh s**t he's gonna kill that dog, GSD comes over snarling and snapping and attacked Harley, I didn't have chance to react the next thing Harley turns into terminator/predator....grabs GSD by the face and shook violently, then pins it to the floor by it's neck, I call him off and he instantly reacts, GSD runs away yelping covered in blood. Harley then wags his tail looking at his ball ready to play again. I was a little shocked as I thought we were both about to get eaten by this GSD.
Now he's always been a bit wary of strangers but never barks or anything just slightly backs off from them, however since the GSD incident he's properly twitchy and has barked at a few strangers. Then tonight I go to a BBQ function with a club I'm part of, lots of new people but the function was on an airfield so I had to have Harley on a lead, usually at works functions he runs about and everyone plays with him. I'm helping to cook then all of a sudden I hear a bark and turn to see a guy flinching away. I was horrified to see Harley had actually bit his hand and punctured the skin. The guy INSTANTLY took responsibility saying it was his fault and Harley probably felt threatened. I apologised continuously before quickly taking Harley home. I put him in the house and returned to BBQ to continue apologising.
Turns out the guy is very switched on and we chatted for a while about how Harley was in unfamiliar territory, tied up, a stranger etc etc. but that's not the point, what he did was inexcusable and COMPLETELY out
Of character. I don't know what's happened since the German shepherd fight but he's changed and the dog that I used to take to old granny's to make them love life and all that jazz is now completely unpredictable. He's part of the family and I can't imagine my life without him in it.
I think it's got something to do with me and anxiety he has about being away from me, but I don't know. I know that I may not get any response to this but tbh I just wanted to blurt out. If anyone has any advice then please feel free to share.
I'm well aware of the mantra "there's no bad dogs just bad owners" so I'm constantly analysing what I have done and what I need to do.
Thanks guys.
Ben
Edited by hackett on Wednesday 20th May 23:47
Edited by hackett on Wednesday 20th May 23:49
Firstly please don't beat yourself up about this, spending his first six months poorly socialised it is amazing he has been as well adjusted as he has til this point.
The GSD incident unfortunately has probably triggered that he now knows that he can use his mouth to defend himself himself, he also has some fear based responses but instead of backing off as he may have done previously he now knows if he reacts the other animal/ person is likely to back down. The terrier in him.is reacting!
My best advise to you is to speak to your vet and get info on a good behaviourist (one that understands fear based response and is upto date with non dominant techniques to try and resolve this)
Lots of potentially good advise will be given here but it can be conflicting and eventually cause more confusion both to you and your dog.
A vet should also check him over to rule out a medical reason for the change in behaviour (not likely but...)
I know an excellent trainer/ behaviourist in Devon if you are based that way!
In the meantime just try and ensure he is not in a pressured scenario for him.
The GSD incident unfortunately has probably triggered that he now knows that he can use his mouth to defend himself himself, he also has some fear based responses but instead of backing off as he may have done previously he now knows if he reacts the other animal/ person is likely to back down. The terrier in him.is reacting!
My best advise to you is to speak to your vet and get info on a good behaviourist (one that understands fear based response and is upto date with non dominant techniques to try and resolve this)
Lots of potentially good advise will be given here but it can be conflicting and eventually cause more confusion both to you and your dog.
A vet should also check him over to rule out a medical reason for the change in behaviour (not likely but...)
I know an excellent trainer/ behaviourist in Devon if you are based that way!
In the meantime just try and ensure he is not in a pressured scenario for him.
I agree with the above post. He feels like his position in the pack has changed and while I personally do not see a problem with a dog being able to defend himself or his pack, he could be now seeing himself in the role of leader/defender.
You need to re-establish his position as one below you. How you do that, is beyond me! Helpful I know...
You need to re-establish his position as one below you. How you do that, is beyond me! Helpful I know...
I do not agree with starting to try and be assertive, (apart from basic commands/ boundaries) this dog has expressed fearful behaviour in the past (wary, backing off from strangers).
Being assertive with his character would not have helped in the situation where the owner wasn't about when his dog went for the bloke. This is a classic fear response from.the dog, not a leader of the pack response.
I really think this dog should be observed by a professional before deciding on how best to retrain him.
Being assertive with his character would not have helped in the situation where the owner wasn't about when his dog went for the bloke. This is a classic fear response from.the dog, not a leader of the pack response.
I really think this dog should be observed by a professional before deciding on how best to retrain him.
Edited by bexVN on Thursday 21st May 00:32
bexVN said:
I do not agree with starting to try and be assertive, (apart from basic commands/ boundaries) this dog has expressed fearful behaviour in the past (wary, backing off from strangers).
Being assertive with his character would not have helped in the situation where the owner wasn't about when his dog went for the bloke. This is a classic fear response from.the dog, not a leader of the pack response.
I really think this dog should be observed by a professional before deciding on how best to retrain him.
From the op's post I understand that the dog was with him on a lead.Being assertive with his character would not have helped in the situation where the owner wasn't about when his dog went for the bloke. This is a classic fear response from.the dog, not a leader of the pack response.
I really think this dog should be observed by a professional before deciding on how best to retrain him.
Edited by bexVN on Thursday 21st May 00:32
oakdale said:
bexVN said:
He did but then he said the incident occurred whilst he was cooking and didn't see what happened. I'm not sure he could have been cooking and holding the dogs lead at the same time?
Men can multitask pet.Edited by oakdale on Thursday 21st May 01:08
Sounds like he is now a bit fear aggressive.
It will take a "bit" of time (see, a LOT) and patience. He will need to be introduced to people (ask them to give him treats) - read his language first to make sure he is happy. He will need to be shown that not all dogs are aggressive. It may be that he can be walked near friendly dogs, then rewarded for it. Condition response training.
It will take a "bit" of time (see, a LOT) and patience. He will need to be introduced to people (ask them to give him treats) - read his language first to make sure he is happy. He will need to be shown that not all dogs are aggressive. It may be that he can be walked near friendly dogs, then rewarded for it. Condition response training.
Thanks for all the replies.
I should have explained a little better. He was on his lead and tied to a bench maybe 20ft away from me. This guy went over to him and was stood between me and him. I don't think he believes he's now the leader of the pack as he knows very clearly that I'm the leader and that's something that has always been instilled in him. When he was younger there was lots of pack position training, walking through doorways last and eating after everyone else etc.
But I do think he maybe now sees himself as a protector or even has just realised he can now handle himself. I'm going to have a chat with the woman at his agility class, she also does behavioural lessons. I think she will be shocked when I tell her what he did as he comes across so playful, obedient and gentle.
After sleeping on it I'm sure the issues are regarding his separation anxiety when he's away from me. My mrs (who doesn't live with me) says that if I nip to the shop or something he will just sit staring at the door. If I'm in the room then he will happily play with the kids or my mrs but as soon as I leave he then becomes transfixed on the door and when I'm going to return.
So although this anxiety has always been there I think as has been mentioned he now realises he has a means of defence and he maybe read the situation as this guy coming between me and him. When he's at work he's off the lead and as such never backed into a corner, he goes to people he likes and just stays away from people he's not sure of. But in this situation he couldn't do that. I wonder if all that actually has to happen is I need to learn that when he's on a lead I need to ensure this scenario can't happen again. Or do I look to deal with the anxiety?
I should have explained a little better. He was on his lead and tied to a bench maybe 20ft away from me. This guy went over to him and was stood between me and him. I don't think he believes he's now the leader of the pack as he knows very clearly that I'm the leader and that's something that has always been instilled in him. When he was younger there was lots of pack position training, walking through doorways last and eating after everyone else etc.
But I do think he maybe now sees himself as a protector or even has just realised he can now handle himself. I'm going to have a chat with the woman at his agility class, she also does behavioural lessons. I think she will be shocked when I tell her what he did as he comes across so playful, obedient and gentle.
After sleeping on it I'm sure the issues are regarding his separation anxiety when he's away from me. My mrs (who doesn't live with me) says that if I nip to the shop or something he will just sit staring at the door. If I'm in the room then he will happily play with the kids or my mrs but as soon as I leave he then becomes transfixed on the door and when I'm going to return.
So although this anxiety has always been there I think as has been mentioned he now realises he has a means of defence and he maybe read the situation as this guy coming between me and him. When he's at work he's off the lead and as such never backed into a corner, he goes to people he likes and just stays away from people he's not sure of. But in this situation he couldn't do that. I wonder if all that actually has to happen is I need to learn that when he's on a lead I need to ensure this scenario can't happen again. Or do I look to deal with the anxiety?
You look to deal with his behaviour as a whole, not just bits of it
He is exhibiting classic fear response as I said before and it has been exacerbated by the situation with the GSD. It's not so much protecting as getting in first before he gets hurt, very different.
He will get worse unless you seek out how to help him feel comfortable.
Be very careful, he has bitten once he will do it again. Get help now, ddon't wait and see.
Has he been castrate? If not then don't be advised to get him done as some may (if it is confirmed that it is fear behaviour he'd be better to stay entire!)
He is exhibiting classic fear response as I said before and it has been exacerbated by the situation with the GSD. It's not so much protecting as getting in first before he gets hurt, very different.
He will get worse unless you seek out how to help him feel comfortable.
Be very careful, he has bitten once he will do it again. Get help now, ddon't wait and see.
Has he been castrate? If not then don't be advised to get him done as some may (if it is confirmed that it is fear behaviour he'd be better to stay entire!)
Edited by bexVN on Thursday 21st May 07:34
Think J+J and Bex are spot on. You can change him back but it'll take time and beware of doing stuff that inadvertantly makes him worse.
I had very similar issue with my Weim' at 2yrs. As a result of unprovoced attacks by other dogs, he would respond when (feeling) threatened with "excesive" force (Weims tend not to back down from anything smaller than a bear anyway... and probably not then either). Also he became more wary of strangers and grabbed a neighbour by the wrist (to be fair the guy was waving his arms about and he just held his wrist firmly in a "stop fecking doing that sort of way) which left a bruise.
Initially I made it worse by putting him on the lead whenever I saw a dog/person I/he didn't know... He learned putting on lead meant DANGER! and things got worse. A friend (exRAF dog handler) pointed out to me that was what was happening. So I started putting him on the lead for every dog/person; ESPECIALLY the ones he was friendly with along with saying "Who's that?" (something I'd realised Id always said when we saw one of his mates). Took about 1-2 months to break the habit. He's still cautious around strange dogs but not direct to DefCon1.
The guy who's arm he grabbed is happy to let his 5yr old daughter hug him around the neck whenever she sees him... though won't stroke him himself; You can't win them all.
I had very similar issue with my Weim' at 2yrs. As a result of unprovoced attacks by other dogs, he would respond when (feeling) threatened with "excesive" force (Weims tend not to back down from anything smaller than a bear anyway... and probably not then either). Also he became more wary of strangers and grabbed a neighbour by the wrist (to be fair the guy was waving his arms about and he just held his wrist firmly in a "stop fecking doing that sort of way) which left a bruise.
Initially I made it worse by putting him on the lead whenever I saw a dog/person I/he didn't know... He learned putting on lead meant DANGER! and things got worse. A friend (exRAF dog handler) pointed out to me that was what was happening. So I started putting him on the lead for every dog/person; ESPECIALLY the ones he was friendly with along with saying "Who's that?" (something I'd realised Id always said when we saw one of his mates). Took about 1-2 months to break the habit. He's still cautious around strange dogs but not direct to DefCon1.
The guy who's arm he grabbed is happy to let his 5yr old daughter hug him around the neck whenever she sees him... though won't stroke him himself; You can't win them all.
There's some brilliant advice in here and some that I would say is probably not as good. It sounds to me like fear aggression and as stated, this needs treating properly by somebody who knows what they're doing, not just somebody who's done a days seminar.
I work with a chap who's a KCAI trainer, behaviorist and most importantly, he works on behalf of the Police/Courts to assess dogs that get confiscated as they are deemed dangeous. I've seen him work with dogs that can't be near people or other dogs and within a VERY short time have it sitting next to another dog. It's obviously going to take time, but it shows that this should be an easy fix. It may not be permanent either, but you can treat that as a reminder that you've not been training the dog as much as you should
Treating aggression with aggression is a very bad idea, you're just teaching the dog that this is how you handle a situation. Like one of the posts suggests, if you start to panic when you see a dog, your dog picks up on it and thinks there's a problem so the best starting point is for YOU to stay calm and be very careful how you interact with your dog.
The chap who the dog bit obviously isn't that knowledgable or he wouldn't have been bitten! If you're knowledgeable about such things then you wouldn't put the dog in a position where it feels like it has to defend. Approaching dogs, leaning over them etc etc, none of these are good ideas! If you must interact with a dog you don't know stand side on to it and ignore it, let it come to you, not just get straight in its face. While your dog may have had a set to with the GSD, the guy who approached you dog while tethered caused this. I dare say it may have happened even without the GSD incident prior to it.
WHen I'm wearing a sleeve and faced with a protection / security dog for training, to build the dogs drive up it needs encouragement. There are lots of things I do to do this, but a LOT of it comes from the handler applying pressure to the long line. The more you pull the dog away from a prey object the more it wants it. A dog pulling on a lead is ultimately doing the same thing (I appreciate this isn't always the case, but we're talking specifics here). Think about drunken idiots outside a kebab shop having a pop at each other. Most of the time, nothing is really going to happen. Get a couple of people to drag the idiots apart and then it escalates.
The behaviorist will of course give you the specific help required, but to buy you a bit of time I have a suggestion. If the dog has a favorite toy (ball on a rope, stuffed toy etc) play at home in the garden with the dog and when the dog REALLY wants the toy, go and put it away. Do the same a day or two later and again, when his drive is REALLY high and wants the ball more than anything, go and put it away again.
If safe to do so, take the dog out somewhere and in as controlled a way as possible, set the dog up for failure (but do so in a SAFE environment). When you see the very first signs of defence drive (go on youtube and find a video of the different drives Prey / defence / avoidance), whip the toy out and wind the dog up with it to bring his energy up and focus on you. If you can get his attention and focus on you then you've found a way to distract the dog.
I've had all sorts of problems with my male but now can literally walk through crowds of people, dog walkers with packs of dogs and he won't even look at them. He'll do this on and off the lead and always have a high reward item to get him to focus on me so as soon as I detect he's going to kick off or another dog is acting aggressively towards him, he is easily brought in to line quickly. In fact, we don't need the toy anymore, he'll do it on command.
It's probably best to speak to a professional but from what you've said, I think you can put this right pretty quickly and easily. For the record, one seminar I have been on did state that a Terrier is the ONLY type of dog that doesn't have any kind of self preservation gene. The saying 'it isn't the size of the dog in the fight but the size of the fight in the dog' was probably based on a terrier Most dogs will realise it's not in their best interest to sustain any more damage, but a typical Terrier really will carry on and never back off.
I work with a chap who's a KCAI trainer, behaviorist and most importantly, he works on behalf of the Police/Courts to assess dogs that get confiscated as they are deemed dangeous. I've seen him work with dogs that can't be near people or other dogs and within a VERY short time have it sitting next to another dog. It's obviously going to take time, but it shows that this should be an easy fix. It may not be permanent either, but you can treat that as a reminder that you've not been training the dog as much as you should
Treating aggression with aggression is a very bad idea, you're just teaching the dog that this is how you handle a situation. Like one of the posts suggests, if you start to panic when you see a dog, your dog picks up on it and thinks there's a problem so the best starting point is for YOU to stay calm and be very careful how you interact with your dog.
The chap who the dog bit obviously isn't that knowledgable or he wouldn't have been bitten! If you're knowledgeable about such things then you wouldn't put the dog in a position where it feels like it has to defend. Approaching dogs, leaning over them etc etc, none of these are good ideas! If you must interact with a dog you don't know stand side on to it and ignore it, let it come to you, not just get straight in its face. While your dog may have had a set to with the GSD, the guy who approached you dog while tethered caused this. I dare say it may have happened even without the GSD incident prior to it.
WHen I'm wearing a sleeve and faced with a protection / security dog for training, to build the dogs drive up it needs encouragement. There are lots of things I do to do this, but a LOT of it comes from the handler applying pressure to the long line. The more you pull the dog away from a prey object the more it wants it. A dog pulling on a lead is ultimately doing the same thing (I appreciate this isn't always the case, but we're talking specifics here). Think about drunken idiots outside a kebab shop having a pop at each other. Most of the time, nothing is really going to happen. Get a couple of people to drag the idiots apart and then it escalates.
The behaviorist will of course give you the specific help required, but to buy you a bit of time I have a suggestion. If the dog has a favorite toy (ball on a rope, stuffed toy etc) play at home in the garden with the dog and when the dog REALLY wants the toy, go and put it away. Do the same a day or two later and again, when his drive is REALLY high and wants the ball more than anything, go and put it away again.
If safe to do so, take the dog out somewhere and in as controlled a way as possible, set the dog up for failure (but do so in a SAFE environment). When you see the very first signs of defence drive (go on youtube and find a video of the different drives Prey / defence / avoidance), whip the toy out and wind the dog up with it to bring his energy up and focus on you. If you can get his attention and focus on you then you've found a way to distract the dog.
I've had all sorts of problems with my male but now can literally walk through crowds of people, dog walkers with packs of dogs and he won't even look at them. He'll do this on and off the lead and always have a high reward item to get him to focus on me so as soon as I detect he's going to kick off or another dog is acting aggressively towards him, he is easily brought in to line quickly. In fact, we don't need the toy anymore, he'll do it on command.
It's probably best to speak to a professional but from what you've said, I think you can put this right pretty quickly and easily. For the record, one seminar I have been on did state that a Terrier is the ONLY type of dog that doesn't have any kind of self preservation gene. The saying 'it isn't the size of the dog in the fight but the size of the fight in the dog' was probably based on a terrier
Most dogs will realise it's not in their best interest to sustain any more damage, but a typical Terrier really will carry on and never back off.He's s
t scared of people/animals he doesn't know after being attacked. It'll take time for him to get over it, just as it would for you.
My old Jack Russell got attacked by a Staffy & took a good six months to stop being overly nervous near other dogs. He never did like Staffies afterwards, which was a shame as he used to play with a couple down the park before things happened.
t scared of people/animals he doesn't know after being attacked. It'll take time for him to get over it, just as it would for you.My old Jack Russell got attacked by a Staffy & took a good six months to stop being overly nervous near other dogs. He never did like Staffies afterwards, which was a shame as he used to play with a couple down the park before things happened.
My white GSD has always had fear aggresion issue. But depsite this looking extremely aggressive she never strikes and the little fella knows it. .
She doesn't get out unless she is on a lead so we have for 6 years or more protected her from getting into situations that she cannot handle.
I trust her 100% and I know here limits.
johnxjsc1985 said:
My white GSD has always had fear aggresion issue. But depsite this looking extremely aggressive she never strikes and the little fella knows it. .
She doesn't get out unless she is on a lead so we have for 6 years or more protected her from getting into situations that she cannot handle.
I trust her 100% and I know here limits.
She's not being aggressive, she's just smiling She doesn't get out unless she is on a lead so we have for 6 years or more protected her from getting into situations that she cannot handle.
I trust her 100% and I know here limits.
Rather than 'protecting' her, why haven't you addressed the problem?
Gassing Station | All Creatures Great & Small | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff