Indicating by rote?
Discussion
I was wondering what's the PH consensus on indicating when there doesn't seem to be anyone around to benefit?
Should you always indicate, say, when exiting a roundabout? One argument is that there could always be someone you haven't spotted - but is there also a danger that 'habitual' indicating could become a poor substitute for adequate observation?
Should you always indicate, say, when exiting a roundabout? One argument is that there could always be someone you haven't spotted - but is there also a danger that 'habitual' indicating could become a poor substitute for adequate observation?
280E said:
I was wondering what's the PH consensus on indicating when there doesn't seem to be anyone around to benefit?
Consensus; An opinion or position reached by a group as a whole. Good luck finding one here 
http://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=14&...
http://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&a...
http://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=14&...
If we used the search for everything the whole forum would be empty 
I think fresh discussion is always a good thing.
Anyway, on this subject, I've always had a problem with this part of advanced driving, as it seems to prioritise showing off your prowess at driving over being courteous and considerate to other road users. Yes, I agree that indicating is a form of communication to other drivers, but what I don't agree with is that every observation you make prior to indicating is perfect - i.e. that you've seen everyone that'll benefit. This is particularly relevant in the countryside at night, when your headlights only illuminate part of your surrounding area. Anyone who follows this 'advanced' driving rule probably fails to indicate reasonably often when they're actually in the presence of another road who would benefit from an indication.
Now, nobody's going to move out into the path of an oncoming vehicle purely on the strength of a signal, so you may wonder what the problem is. Well, as with anything, signalling should be merely a layer of safety amongst other layers, not all of your safety in one action. However it is a layer of safety! The other issue is that quite simply that it's good manners and avoids pissing other drivers off. I've lost count of the number of times I've been waiting at a junction for a car to pass and they get slower and slower and you wonder what's going on, and then finally they turn into the road you're on and you realise that you could have pulled out ages ago - that's very annoying! Surely though you'd be visible in such a situation? Well, not necessarily - what if you're a pedestrian in dark clothing waiting in a gap in the hedge? What if you're in a parked car which unknown to the other driver is actually sat with the engine running and about to pull out? What if you're a cyclist without lights visible from the side? More to the point, what if you're a cyclist without lights? Just because you're being stupid and illegal doesn't justify someone running you over - we all have a duty of care for everyone else on the road.
The other situation is timing: when you're halfway through taking a junction and someone suddenly appears - if you're already indicating then you can concentrate on taking the junction, rather than changing your hand position and indicating when you should really be concentrating on and doing other things. For that driver who suddenly appears, this can make the difference between rolling over the junction in 2nd and having to come to a halt and engage 1st gear. Again, only if safe if the indicator should prove inaccurate (you should never trust an indicator), but the key point is that it's saved somebody else annoyance and hassle.
I believe that a driver can demonstrate that they're indicating with thought and communication simply with the timing. For example, you're in lane 1 coming off a motorway and there's another vehicle approaching you from behind in lane 1 at a speed that means if you come off they'll be fine to stay in their lane, but if you stay on they'll need to go round you - indicating early enough for them to make that decision shows that you've thought about it, as opposed to indicating at the III marker out of habit. There are lots of other examples, but I firmly believe that timing and other aspects can demonstrate proper indicating, not just failing to indicate because you personally don't think anyone will benefit.
Don't get me wrong, there are situations where I won't indicate because it's pretty obvious there's nobody around, but those situations are pretty rare and I've often been proved wrong (slap on the wrist - something new learnt). We can't all assume that our observation and judgement is perfect.
I think fresh discussion is always a good thing.Anyway, on this subject, I've always had a problem with this part of advanced driving, as it seems to prioritise showing off your prowess at driving over being courteous and considerate to other road users. Yes, I agree that indicating is a form of communication to other drivers, but what I don't agree with is that every observation you make prior to indicating is perfect - i.e. that you've seen everyone that'll benefit. This is particularly relevant in the countryside at night, when your headlights only illuminate part of your surrounding area. Anyone who follows this 'advanced' driving rule probably fails to indicate reasonably often when they're actually in the presence of another road who would benefit from an indication.
Now, nobody's going to move out into the path of an oncoming vehicle purely on the strength of a signal, so you may wonder what the problem is. Well, as with anything, signalling should be merely a layer of safety amongst other layers, not all of your safety in one action. However it is a layer of safety! The other issue is that quite simply that it's good manners and avoids pissing other drivers off. I've lost count of the number of times I've been waiting at a junction for a car to pass and they get slower and slower and you wonder what's going on, and then finally they turn into the road you're on and you realise that you could have pulled out ages ago - that's very annoying! Surely though you'd be visible in such a situation? Well, not necessarily - what if you're a pedestrian in dark clothing waiting in a gap in the hedge? What if you're in a parked car which unknown to the other driver is actually sat with the engine running and about to pull out? What if you're a cyclist without lights visible from the side? More to the point, what if you're a cyclist without lights? Just because you're being stupid and illegal doesn't justify someone running you over - we all have a duty of care for everyone else on the road.
The other situation is timing: when you're halfway through taking a junction and someone suddenly appears - if you're already indicating then you can concentrate on taking the junction, rather than changing your hand position and indicating when you should really be concentrating on and doing other things. For that driver who suddenly appears, this can make the difference between rolling over the junction in 2nd and having to come to a halt and engage 1st gear. Again, only if safe if the indicator should prove inaccurate (you should never trust an indicator), but the key point is that it's saved somebody else annoyance and hassle.
I believe that a driver can demonstrate that they're indicating with thought and communication simply with the timing. For example, you're in lane 1 coming off a motorway and there's another vehicle approaching you from behind in lane 1 at a speed that means if you come off they'll be fine to stay in their lane, but if you stay on they'll need to go round you - indicating early enough for them to make that decision shows that you've thought about it, as opposed to indicating at the III marker out of habit. There are lots of other examples, but I firmly believe that timing and other aspects can demonstrate proper indicating, not just failing to indicate because you personally don't think anyone will benefit.
Don't get me wrong, there are situations where I won't indicate because it's pretty obvious there's nobody around, but those situations are pretty rare and I've often been proved wrong (slap on the wrist - something new learnt). We can't all assume that our observation and judgement is perfect.
Good points Rob, and I appreciate the comment regarding searches!
There are a couple of times when I'm not sure indicating is really necessary:
a) Joining a motorway via a regular slip road - why indicate right (or even left, as some people do) when there's nowhere else I could be going? Maybe more valid at night?
b) Motorway driving, returning to lane after an overtake.
There are a couple of times when I'm not sure indicating is really necessary:
a) Joining a motorway via a regular slip road - why indicate right (or even left, as some people do) when there's nowhere else I could be going? Maybe more valid at night?
b) Motorway driving, returning to lane after an overtake.
280E said:
Good points Rob, and I appreciate the comment regarding searches!
There are a couple of times when I'm not sure indicating is really necessary:
a) Joining a motorway via a regular slip road - why indicate right (or even left, as some people do) when there's nowhere else I could be going? Maybe more valid at night?
b) Motorway driving, returning to lane after an overtake.
a) - to alert drivers already established that you are there and preparing to move out (technically not necessary IF everyone is observing correctly, but a flashing light might just distract them from their urgent text messages long enough for them not to accelerate or swerve into you)There are a couple of times when I'm not sure indicating is really necessary:
a) Joining a motorway via a regular slip road - why indicate right (or even left, as some people do) when there's nowhere else I could be going? Maybe more valid at night?
b) Motorway driving, returning to lane after an overtake.
b) as above, to let other drivers know that you are preparing to manoeuvre.
Edited by marshalla on Saturday 23 May 12:36
marshalla said:
a) - to alert drivers already established kknow that you are there and preparing to move out (technically not necessary IF everyone is observing correctly, but a flashing light might just distract them from their urgent text messages long enough for them not to accelerate or swerve into you)
b) as above, to let other drivers know that you are preparing to manoeuvre.
a) What else would you be doing on a slip road?b) as above, to let other drivers know that you are preparing to manoeuvre.
b)i What else would you be doing, B)ii If the overtaken vehicle is going to be affected by your manoeuvre should you be making it in the first place?
If I'm moving from lane 3 to lane 2 I tend to signal for the benefit of traffic ahead in lane 1, but rarely when returning from 2 to 1.
280E said:
Good points Rob, and I appreciate the comment regarding searches!
There are a couple of times when I'm not sure indicating is really necessary:
a) Joining a motorway via a regular slip road - why indicate right (or even left, as some people do) when there's nowhere else I could be going? Maybe more valid at night?
b) Motorway driving, returning to lane after an overtake.
Thanks.There are a couple of times when I'm not sure indicating is really necessary:
a) Joining a motorway via a regular slip road - why indicate right (or even left, as some people do) when there's nowhere else I could be going? Maybe more valid at night?
b) Motorway driving, returning to lane after an overtake.
I've been criticised for this in the past on observed drives. However, I indicate in both those situations for the following reasons:
situation a:
1) Traffic on the motorway will not always be aware whether a sliproad joins the motorway and ends, so all traffic is joining, or stays as a demarked sliproad due to an imminent junction up ahead. Usually this is signed beforehand, but not always and it pays to make it clear that you are joining.
2) Indicating can also be an alert to sleep drivers in lane 1 as to what is happening, especially at night. It's all too easy for some drivers to get in a bit of a daze, especially those people cruising at lower speed in lane one - a flashing light is always a good sign to keep them aware of what's going on.
3) It's an extra layer of safety by communicating what's happening to drivers planning on a return from lane 3 to lane 2 who may not be aware of the junction (maybe it was masked by a lorry on their inside? Maybe they just weren't paying attention). It also serves as a reminder to drivers in lane 2 that when you join, lane 1 drivers may move into lane 2 either out of necessity or courtesy.
situation b:
1) Quite often I'm coming back into lane 2 from lane 3 after an overtaking manouvre because a lorry or other slow moving vehicle that I'm overtaking has finished its overtake and has just moved down from lane 2 to lane 1. When this happens, many drivers who had slowed to follow the lorry in lane 2 accelerate back up to their cruising speed again and will invariably undertake you when they do so. Remember, these drivers are 'stay in lane and change speed' type drivers, which is why they're in that situation, so they won't expect you to move lanes and stay at the same speed, it's not the way their mind works. Being a 'stay at one speed and change lanes' style of motorway driver, this happens to me frequently and can be very dangerous. Indicating clearly can prevent an accident here. In an ideal world of course you wouldn't move back down a lane if you knew someone was gunning it up your inside, but observation is rarely perfect, especially not on a passenger side blindspot!
2) The other reason to indicate when returning to a lane after overtaking is to inform the driver behind you, who may use the information for a variety of reasons, from something as subtle as not moving to the right to allow a fast filtering motorbike through to a gear change decision in a low powered vehicle (and more overtakes happen uphill, so this is a salient point).
3) When you're moving back across from 3 to 2 or 2 to 1, how do you know there's not a motorbike riding the white line charging up your inside? It's not always possible to see them. An indication could prevent a nasty accident between you and the biker.
4) You never know what the guy behind you is thinking. If you're at the head of a queue of cars overtaking a slow moving vehicle, it's not unheard of for the guy behind you to undertake you as soon as there's space to do so. If you indicate in advance that you're moving back in after the overtake, then it can help prevent such a thing happening. This is particularly relevant if like me you like to cruise at around 70mph and people in the fast lane are desperate to do 90mph - if you're overtaking a vehicle doing 65mph in lane 2, the lane 3 90mpg brigade can sometimes get very irritated, and a nice early indication to the left can ease their frustration and inform them of what you're about to do.
Edited by RobM77 on Saturday 23 May 12:43
Always signalling even when you are on a deserted road? Doesn't cause any harm to anyone, so why not?
Only signalling when it would benefit another road user? Fine, as long as you are sure of the situation, why not?
Not signalling when it would affect another road user? Definite nono!
It's not a difficult decision really, is it?
Only signalling when it would benefit another road user? Fine, as long as you are sure of the situation, why not?
Not signalling when it would affect another road user? Definite nono!
It's not a difficult decision really, is it?
I should follow on from my post above by stating that I'm not advocating indicating by rote for advanced drivers, I'm just advocating indicating whenever it may be necessary, which in my opinion is virtually all the time. Saying that you 'never' indicate in certain situations, such as returning to a lane after overtaking on a motorway, is in a way 'by rote' - i.e. a rule decided upon before you get in the car, rather than evaluating each case individually. I do the latter, and what ends up happening is I indicate virtually everywhere.
On my Police courses if we indicated by rote for no good reason the instructor would ask 'whos that for?' and fine us for the course tea club kitty. Indicating only when there was a reason to showed you were observing properly and were aware that others would benefit from the signal.
Bigends said:
On my Police courses if we indicated by rote for no good reason the instructor would ask 'whos that for?' and fine us for the course tea club kitty. Indicating only when there was a reason to showed you were observing properly and were aware that others would benefit from the signal.
A friend of mine did a commentary drive which included 'indicating for the benefit of, err, that Sheep over there' and got so flustered his next observation was that the traffic lights were currently blue.RobM77 said:
what if you're a pedestrian in dark clothing waiting in a gap in the hedge? What if you're in a parked car which unknown to the other driver is actually sat with the engine running and about to pull out? What if you're a cyclist without lights visible from the side? More to the point, what if you're a cyclist without lights? Just because you're being stupid and illegal doesn't justify someone running you over - we all have a duty of care for everyone else on the road.
Can't help thinking a lot of the 'advanced drivers' will miss exactly these situations. Explains how often I wait to cross a road on foot only to find I've stood there like a fool for no reason because a car turns off without indicating.Chris1255 said:
RobM77 said:
what if you're a pedestrian in dark clothing waiting in a gap in the hedge? What if you're in a parked car which unknown to the other driver is actually sat with the engine running and about to pull out? What if you're a cyclist without lights visible from the side? More to the point, what if you're a cyclist without lights? Just because you're being stupid and illegal doesn't justify someone running you over - we all have a duty of care for everyone else on the road.
Can't help thinking a lot of the 'advanced drivers' will miss exactly these situations. Explains how often I wait to cross a road on foot only to find I've stood there like a fool for no reason because a car turns off without indicating.
And it's not as if you'd have been run over if you'd have walked out anyway, you just left a big safety margin for the mutual benefit of you and the driver in question, only to be confused as the guy slows and then let down as he turns off. My other example of a parked car with someone in it waiting to pull away is particularly salient here - how is an 'advanced' driver supposed to know which parked cars (on the street and in driveways) have people in them waiting to pull out and which ones don't? As we can see by this logic, indicating most of the time is not indicating by rote, it's a natural consequence of really thinking about the situation. Given how clear it is how few people give situations this much thought, I think it's a far safer rule to indicate by rote to be honest - timing and commentary will demonstrate the proper skill of indicating if on an observed drive. If you don't want to indicate by rote, then that's fine, but statements like "I never indicate in x or y situation" worry me somewhat - for example look at the huge list I wrote above of why one should indicate when pulling back in after an overtake on the motorway, and then look at the number of people who say they never indicate in this situation.Advanced driving to one side for a second, we're in a situation now in the UK where virtually nobody indicates properly (as in to give advance notice on a move, rather than giving notice that you've just started the move, which is what most people do!). I reckon I see about one person a week indicating correctly in the 600-700 miles I do every week. We (IAM, RoSPA etc) should be very careful indeed about spreading a message of only indicating in certain situations. If a bunch of geeks on an advanced driving web forum don't realise all the reasons to indicate in certain situations (and I'm not saying I do by the way), then sure as hell Mr "one hand on the wheel, Christian O' Connell breakfast show, starbucks in the cup holder" won't - we should be careful.
R0G said:
If the view is open and there is nobody about who will benefit then do not indicate - if it is done then its not a thoughtful planned action
By thinking about when an indicator is need makes the driver more observant
Indicating wouldn't automatically mean that the driver is less observant, they could just have made a different philosophical choice in relation to the observation.By thinking about when an indicator is need makes the driver more observant
(i.e. they can see nobody is around but operate to a maxim other than 'only signal where it is of benefit' such as 'signal unless it misleads')
If there is nobody else around, signalling or not is of little real practical consequence.
The most important things are signalling for benefit of people where necessary & not signalling to confuse.
Signalling that doesn't confuse but is of no benefit matters little (unless following a stylistic dictat is important to you).
Gassing Station | Advanced Driving | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff