RE: The problem with Porsches: Tell Me I'm Wrong
Discussion
996TT02 said:
Orange Rocket said:
In my opinion the Nurburgring has a lot to answer for. It may very well be one of the best testing locations in Europe, the lap times may well mean a lot to the marketing departments at Porsche, Jaguar, Nissan etc but I really don't see the relevance to a road car which is likely to spend 95% or more of it's time on the road and possibly never venture on to track.
Most journo's will agree that the current BMW M3/M4 work brilliantly on track but less comfortable on the road. Wonder where they were developed...?
Again, we are down to numbers. Humans need quantifiable reference points. "Drives great" is subjective. 0-60 in 4 secs, 500bhp, or Ring in 8 minutes is or should be an absolute.Most journo's will agree that the current BMW M3/M4 work brilliantly on track but less comfortable on the road. Wonder where they were developed...?
The truth is, on a challenging road a half competent driver of a diesel Golf won't be far behind a supercar driven by the average driver.
ORD said:
996TT02 said:
Orange Rocket said:
In my opinion the Nurburgring has a lot to answer for. It may very well be one of the best testing locations in Europe, the lap times may well mean a lot to the marketing departments at Porsche, Jaguar, Nissan etc but I really don't see the relevance to a road car which is likely to spend 95% or more of it's time on the road and possibly never venture on to track.
Most journo's will agree that the current BMW M3/M4 work brilliantly on track but less comfortable on the road. Wonder where they were developed...?
Again, we are down to numbers. Humans need quantifiable reference points. "Drives great" is subjective. 0-60 in 4 secs, 500bhp, or Ring in 8 minutes is or should be an absolute.Most journo's will agree that the current BMW M3/M4 work brilliantly on track but less comfortable on the road. Wonder where they were developed...?
The truth is, on a challenging road a half competent driver of a diesel Golf won't be far behind a supercar driven by the average driver.
In fact, if you think about the recent Top Gear format. The top F1 drivers are doing the lap in a Suzuki Liana in what? 1.43-ish? Some of the guests are getting pretty close to this in a Vauxhall Astra or Chevrolet Lacetti, so no a half decent driver in a golf won't get anywhere near an average one in a supercar.
Many years ago, I lived for a while in Italy. My uncles Ex-gilfriend had an old, air cooled 911 of mid 80's vintage. It was the only car we had there so we used to fill the boot at the front with all manner of stuff. Often it was full of logs. One time I drove it back from the village with the front loaded with firewood. I dropped it off and drove back. I was hoofing it a bit and, predictably with the nose light and not much fuel, massive understeer, massive oversteer and off. I leaned loads from that car. It was very, very hard to drive fast - more for the understeer than anything else and when you got it right it was a joy. The speed you would need to carry in a 991 to get that kind of feeling is just much, much to high. I have driven a 991, and a current Boxster GTS and they are much too fast, have mad gearing and are over-tyred to a crazy level. As has been said, it's all getting a bit Audi. The whole GTS range was at a driving day I was on recently and I barely noticed. I had no desire to have a go in any of them. Enough said really. The sweet spot for current road cars is, in my opinion the Megane 275 (which is on a normal road a truly fast car) or, predictably, the GT-86. You might argue that I'm not man enough for the current Porsche range and you'd probably be right. I don't want to be terrified, in prison or dead.
I must admit, the base Cayman is a car I've not driven and I think you may be right. How mental is the 275 Megane though? Good Lord that thing can carry some speed through the corners. I might see if I can blag into a base Cayman with the smaller wheels. I always love the absolute base model cars they do.
anonymous said:
[redacted]
I agree, the issue in my opinion is how sport cars of other manufacturers currently on sale seem poor when compared to Porsche. For instance I had great expectations for the 4C. At some point, also knowing some people involved into the developing, I was really hoping that here in Italy we would have finally seen the production of a car to enjoy on our twisty roads and not costing 200k€. But the first drive left me perplexed. The second drive, back to back with a 981 Boxter S was humiliating for the Alfa. I like the looks and the compact dimensions but compared to the Porsche it really seemed a car developed in a backyard during weekends.Edited by matsoc on Monday 25th May 17:03
Interesting topic, being an owner of a boggo 2.7 987C Cayman on skinny little wheels. It pretty much mirrors my opinion of the way Porsche are going. When I drove the 981 Boxster and Cayman it was more refined, more upmarket, more grippy, less involving and more of a GT. As an only car they were lovely, but I found I liked the little bit of a raw edge my gen1 Cayman has and ultimately didn't want to swap. Even my brother's Spyder, which is magnificent in every way and IMO the best car Porsche have turned out in a very long time, has so much more grip and performance you end up way north of sensible speeds without really trying, just to have some fun. Which is why ultimately I prefer mine. You have to work the 2.7 harder to make it go, with the little tyres the limits are much lower and you can actually get to them without going super quickly.
Then again, my brother also has a Mk1 MX5 on 185s with the best part of knob all power. Driven on the same roads the car moves around so much, and you've got to be so on it to make it go, it's even more fun to drive properly than the Cayman is. Indeed, I got out of it and it made me seriously consider what I have the Cayman for... Ultimately it's a duality, as the Cayman also is surprisingly practical, but with a cheeky edge to it.
To go to extremes, I borrowed a Honda powered Elise last week and that REALLY wakes you up. It was from the more hardcore end of the Elise spectrum to the point that it was telepathic to drive. Everything about it. Steering, brakes, immediate throttle and a large P2W ratio. It went, biblically, but was still fun at legal speeds on the roads in the Peak District I was driving on. But it was an adrenaline car. It's like an ice cold shower on speed and not something I'd want to use all the time. But for those times you want something seriously refreshing, I can't think of any car other than a Caterham that comes close. This is the thing. Given the choice, that Elise vs a new GT3 to take out for a drive. I'd choose the Elise every time. The GT3 will feel numb in comparison. Mad though it is, the GT3 will be much more practical and usable.
Then again, in reality, on roads as they are now. Do you really need anything more than an Elise S to get your juices pumping on a drive? I really don't think you do and you'll have access to 100% of it's abilities on a road without driving like a psychopath. Likewise if you want something more practical and usable every day with a bit more comfort, an old boggo Cayman fits the bill nicely. I know after driving all the above, I have no intention now of swapping it. Simply because the only car I can think of that's anywhere near as good is an Evora, and I can't afford one of those any more. I'll also continue to try and pry my brother's mk1 from his mitts for when it's sunny.
The world has gone mad. We've become obsessed with stuff that's ruining cars. Lap times around a circuit in Germany that mean nothing in the real world. 0-100 (because 0-60's are so f
king fast now it's irrelevant), more and more HP, etc. A hot hatch will crucify my Cayman these days around a track. Where's the fun in that on the road? Hot hatches used to have 100-130 hp and weighed fk all. You threw them into corners and they MOVED. Where is the fun in just steering around a corner and relying on stability management/traction control/big fking tyres and stloads of power? It does nothing for me.
Then again, my brother also has a Mk1 MX5 on 185s with the best part of knob all power. Driven on the same roads the car moves around so much, and you've got to be so on it to make it go, it's even more fun to drive properly than the Cayman is. Indeed, I got out of it and it made me seriously consider what I have the Cayman for... Ultimately it's a duality, as the Cayman also is surprisingly practical, but with a cheeky edge to it.
To go to extremes, I borrowed a Honda powered Elise last week and that REALLY wakes you up. It was from the more hardcore end of the Elise spectrum to the point that it was telepathic to drive. Everything about it. Steering, brakes, immediate throttle and a large P2W ratio. It went, biblically, but was still fun at legal speeds on the roads in the Peak District I was driving on. But it was an adrenaline car. It's like an ice cold shower on speed and not something I'd want to use all the time. But for those times you want something seriously refreshing, I can't think of any car other than a Caterham that comes close. This is the thing. Given the choice, that Elise vs a new GT3 to take out for a drive. I'd choose the Elise every time. The GT3 will feel numb in comparison. Mad though it is, the GT3 will be much more practical and usable.
Then again, in reality, on roads as they are now. Do you really need anything more than an Elise S to get your juices pumping on a drive? I really don't think you do and you'll have access to 100% of it's abilities on a road without driving like a psychopath. Likewise if you want something more practical and usable every day with a bit more comfort, an old boggo Cayman fits the bill nicely. I know after driving all the above, I have no intention now of swapping it. Simply because the only car I can think of that's anywhere near as good is an Evora, and I can't afford one of those any more. I'll also continue to try and pry my brother's mk1 from his mitts for when it's sunny.
The world has gone mad. We've become obsessed with stuff that's ruining cars. Lap times around a circuit in Germany that mean nothing in the real world. 0-100 (because 0-60's are so f
king fast now it's irrelevant), more and more HP, etc. A hot hatch will crucify my Cayman these days around a track. Where's the fun in that on the road? Hot hatches used to have 100-130 hp and weighed fk all. You threw them into corners and they MOVED. Where is the fun in just steering around a corner and relying on stability management/traction control/big fking tyres and stloads of power? It does nothing for me.Edited by juansolo on Monday 25th May 17:10
Excellent way to put it!How can you criticise a company for making a better car than the last generation on every measure - with all the safety & environmental legislation they have to increasingly meet?
A PDK Cayman GTS is the best car I've ever driven - which pains me for 2 reasons; I didn't want like the gearbox- I saw myself as a manual evangelist- & it was better than the more expensive 991 Carrera - my dream car since I was a kid. But to enjoy either without worrying about your licence, you need to be on a track.
I'd love to see a less powerful model, with lower handling limits but still with the poise, grace & handling - as much for these as the lower purchase price (£30k please🙏🙏🙏)
A PDK Cayman GTS is the best car I've ever driven - which pains me for 2 reasons; I didn't want like the gearbox- I saw myself as a manual evangelist- & it was better than the more expensive 991 Carrera - my dream car since I was a kid. But to enjoy either without worrying about your licence, you need to be on a track.
I'd love to see a less powerful model, with lower handling limits but still with the poise, grace & handling - as much for these as the lower purchase price (£30k please🙏🙏🙏)
996TT02 said:
As long as it's a numbers game... like with any other consumer product... this is the way things will go.
Not all that long ago the Sierra Cosworth's 200 bhp was considered stratospheric for something that did not generally come in red and cost as much as a house.
My Porsche 944 was supposed to have around 160bhp, but in reality had less, yet it was still considered "fast".
Nowadays, a diesel midrange saloon is almost obliged to sport this 200 BHP figure, or be termed "gutless".
Today's fast saloons put out 400, even 500 bhp.
Certainly some of that output is soaked up in the extra weight. We are, generally, driving one and a half cars nowadays.
But the main thing is - no manufacturer can offer an updated model offering smaller numbers than the current one.
Larger numbers mean that the cars have to tame that power somehow. The Cossie's "miserable" 200bhp led to so many of them being totalled, just imagine 500 horses in the same shell being driven by what most of us honestly are - totally incompetent in comparison to any of those very few persons whose day job is driving fast cars, fast.
So gizmos, driver aids, etc so that the drive is even less exciting than in a vehicle with one quarter the power but none of the gadgets, where, for example, maintaining velocity is even more important than gaining it.
Porsche, like everyone else, is simply giving us more of what we THINK we want.
I've read through this entire thread and this is absolutely on the money. I've posted similar before.Not all that long ago the Sierra Cosworth's 200 bhp was considered stratospheric for something that did not generally come in red and cost as much as a house.
My Porsche 944 was supposed to have around 160bhp, but in reality had less, yet it was still considered "fast".
Nowadays, a diesel midrange saloon is almost obliged to sport this 200 BHP figure, or be termed "gutless".
Today's fast saloons put out 400, even 500 bhp.
Certainly some of that output is soaked up in the extra weight. We are, generally, driving one and a half cars nowadays.
But the main thing is - no manufacturer can offer an updated model offering smaller numbers than the current one.
Larger numbers mean that the cars have to tame that power somehow. The Cossie's "miserable" 200bhp led to so many of them being totalled, just imagine 500 horses in the same shell being driven by what most of us honestly are - totally incompetent in comparison to any of those very few persons whose day job is driving fast cars, fast.
So gizmos, driver aids, etc so that the drive is even less exciting than in a vehicle with one quarter the power but none of the gadgets, where, for example, maintaining velocity is even more important than gaining it.
Porsche, like everyone else, is simply giving us more of what we THINK we want.
We reached the tipping point in the early 90's with fast road cars and the cossie is a great example..the E36 M3 EVO had 320bhp, 1500kg 245 tires and traction and lots of them were binned..I'd say the 328I was probably the limit for what most good drivers could handle going through the rear wheels at the limit on the road...and how many 930s/964s/993s ended up in hedges?
The romantic notion of "live" cars with skinny tires and no traction is great for pub talk , but when your trying to catch a gap on a wet winters night from blind junction its a pain in the boll0x!
It's not as if the roads have gotten drastically better and everyone is doing advanced driving courses, in fact I'd say the opposite is true , there's whole generation of drivers who grew up watching top gear who think sliding a car is simple...yeah its simple when your out on the same track every day with massive run offs and multiple takes.
The idea of the standard modern driver with more than 150bhp and no ESC or ABS is terrifying. I often drive behind someone thinking 'Bloody hell! His instrument panel must be lit up like a Christmas tree' but he doesn't even feel the safety nets saving him. How often do you see someone wake up halfway around a corner and anchor on before turning in hard? I remember that even back in the early 2000s that would have ended up with a car in a ditch.
I once had a woman in an X5 'pull up' alongside me at the lights in standing water. I could see in the wing mirror that the back end slipped out as she braked, the wheels locked for a heartbeat, etc, but the systems caught it all; when I looked over at her face, she was still talking on the car phone and hadn't even noticed that she had braked far far too late and hard in the conditions.
I once had a woman in an X5 'pull up' alongside me at the lights in standing water. I could see in the wing mirror that the back end slipped out as she braked, the wheels locked for a heartbeat, etc, but the systems caught it all; when I looked over at her face, she was still talking on the car phone and hadn't even noticed that she had braked far far too late and hard in the conditions.
juansolo said:
Interesting topic, being an owner of a boggo 2.7 987C Cayman on skinny little wheels. It pretty much mirrors my opinion of the way Porsche are going. When I drove the 981 Boxster and Cayman it was more refined, more upmarket, more grippy, less involving and more of a GT. As an only car they were lovely, but I found I liked the little bit of a raw edge my gen1 Cayman has and ultimately didn't want to swap. Even my brother's Spyder, which is magnificent in every way and IMO the best car Porsche have turned out in a very long time, has so much more grip and performance you end up way north of sensible speeds without really trying, just to have some fun. Which is why ultimately I prefer mine. You have to work the 2.7 harder to make it go, with the little tyres the limits are much lower and you can actually get to them without going super quickly.
Then again, my brother also has a Mk1 MX5 on 185s with the best part of knob all power. Driven on the same roads the car moves around so much, and you've got to be so on it to make it go, it's even more fun to drive properly than the Cayman is. Indeed, I got out of it and it made me seriously consider what I have the Cayman for... Ultimately it's a duality, as the Cayman also is surprisingly practical, but with a cheeky edge to it.
To go to extremes, I borrowed a Honda powered Elise last week and that REALLY wakes you up. It was from the more hardcore end of the Elise spectrum to the point that it was telepathic to drive. Everything about it. Steering, brakes, immediate throttle and a large P2W ratio. It went, biblically, but was still fun at legal speeds on the roads in the Peak District I was driving on. But it was an adrenaline car. It's like an ice cold shower on speed and not something I'd want to use all the time. But for those times you want something seriously refreshing, I can't think of any car other than a Caterham that comes close. This is the thing. Given the choice, that Elise vs a new GT3 to take out for a drive. I'd choose the Elise every time. The GT3 will feel numb in comparison. Mad though it is, the GT3 will be much more practical and usable.
Then again, in reality, on roads as they are now. Do you really need anything more than an Elise S to get your juices pumping on a drive? I really don't think you do and you'll have access to 100% of it's abilities on a road without driving like a psychopath. Likewise if you want something more practical and usable every day with a bit more comfort, an old boggo Cayman fits the bill nicely. I know after driving all the above, I have no intention now of swapping it. Simply because the only car I can think of that's anywhere near as good is an Evora, and I can't afford one of those any more. I'll also continue to try and pry my brother's mk1 from his mitts for when it's sunny.
The world has gone mad. We've become obsessed with stuff that's ruining cars. Lap times around a circuit in Germany that mean nothing in the real world. 0-100 (because 0-60's are so fking fast now it's irrelevant), more and more HP, etc. A hot hatch will crucify my Cayman these days around a track. Where's the fun in that on the road? Hot hatches used to have 100-130 hp and weighed fk all. You threw them into corners and they MOVED. Where is the fun in just steering around a corner and relying on stability management/traction control/big fking tyres and stloads of power? It does nothing for me.
I entirely agree with this - faster is usually not better IMO on the public road, which let's face it is where the majority of us do 95%+ of our driving. Then again, my brother also has a Mk1 MX5 on 185s with the best part of knob all power. Driven on the same roads the car moves around so much, and you've got to be so on it to make it go, it's even more fun to drive properly than the Cayman is. Indeed, I got out of it and it made me seriously consider what I have the Cayman for... Ultimately it's a duality, as the Cayman also is surprisingly practical, but with a cheeky edge to it.
To go to extremes, I borrowed a Honda powered Elise last week and that REALLY wakes you up. It was from the more hardcore end of the Elise spectrum to the point that it was telepathic to drive. Everything about it. Steering, brakes, immediate throttle and a large P2W ratio. It went, biblically, but was still fun at legal speeds on the roads in the Peak District I was driving on. But it was an adrenaline car. It's like an ice cold shower on speed and not something I'd want to use all the time. But for those times you want something seriously refreshing, I can't think of any car other than a Caterham that comes close. This is the thing. Given the choice, that Elise vs a new GT3 to take out for a drive. I'd choose the Elise every time. The GT3 will feel numb in comparison. Mad though it is, the GT3 will be much more practical and usable.
Then again, in reality, on roads as they are now. Do you really need anything more than an Elise S to get your juices pumping on a drive? I really don't think you do and you'll have access to 100% of it's abilities on a road without driving like a psychopath. Likewise if you want something more practical and usable every day with a bit more comfort, an old boggo Cayman fits the bill nicely. I know after driving all the above, I have no intention now of swapping it. Simply because the only car I can think of that's anywhere near as good is an Evora, and I can't afford one of those any more. I'll also continue to try and pry my brother's mk1 from his mitts for when it's sunny.
The world has gone mad. We've become obsessed with stuff that's ruining cars. Lap times around a circuit in Germany that mean nothing in the real world. 0-100 (because 0-60's are so f
king fast now it's irrelevant), more and more HP, etc. A hot hatch will crucify my Cayman these days around a track. Where's the fun in that on the road? Hot hatches used to have 100-130 hp and weighed fk all. You threw them into corners and they MOVED. Where is the fun in just steering around a corner and relying on stability management/traction control/big fking tyres and stloads of power? It does nothing for me.Edited by juansolo on Monday 25th May 17:10
As petrolheads, having an older car that requires some skill to extract the best from can make us "victims" to those we may feel are less PH worthy as no doubt the latest diesel/hot hatch will probably be faster in the real world. But if being the fastest on the road is of little consequence then older, less powerful stuff is where the fun lies.
As an extreme, I was out in the Caterham today (175 section tyres and an LSD) and it was more than capable of keeping me on my toes. Exiting a car park and not trying at all had the back stepping out at 15mph ish (must have been diesel on the road
) and it is happy to slither around roundabouts at both ends at 40mph. No doubt the latest hot hatches are faster than me, however I am not willing to lose my licence to prove any sort of point and it closes in on 3 figures more than quick enough.Its also why I have just bought an E36 BMW rather than something more modern - no doubt many people will look at it as an old relic but I will be enjoying pushing its limits on the road at legal speeds and in complete safety.
Edited by SidewaysSi on Monday 25th May 19:09
Is this not the case for most performance cars now? What with even the best hot hatches now having 300bhp+ and 4wd even they're becoming too competent to be fun within near legal limits on the roads today.
Luckily we still have cars like Fiesta ST Mountune which whilst are'nt perfect, are fun by the bucketloads.
Luckily we still have cars like Fiesta ST Mountune which whilst are'nt perfect, are fun by the bucketloads.
SidewaysSi said:
I entirely agree with this - faster is usually not better IMO on the public road, which let's face it is where the majority of us do 95%+ of our driving.
As petrolheads, having an older car that requires some skill to extract the best from can make us "victims" to those we may feel are less PH worthy as no doubt the latest diesel/hot hatch will probably be faster in the real world. But if being the fastest on the road is of little consequence then older, less powerful stuff is where the fun lies.
As an extreme, I was out in the Caterham today (175 section tyres and an LSD) and it was more than capable of keeping me on my toes. Exiting a car park and not trying at all had the back stepping out at 15mph ish (must have been diesel on the road) and it is happy to slither around roundabouts at both ends at 40mph. No doubt the latest hot hatches are faster than me, however I am not willing to lose my licence to prove any sort of point and it closes in on 3 figures more than quick enough.
Its also why I have just bought an E36 BMW rather than something more modern - no doubt many people will look at it as an old relic but I will be enjoying pushing its limits on the road at legal speeds and in complete safety.
This.As petrolheads, having an older car that requires some skill to extract the best from can make us "victims" to those we may feel are less PH worthy as no doubt the latest diesel/hot hatch will probably be faster in the real world. But if being the fastest on the road is of little consequence then older, less powerful stuff is where the fun lies.
As an extreme, I was out in the Caterham today (175 section tyres and an LSD) and it was more than capable of keeping me on my toes. Exiting a car park and not trying at all had the back stepping out at 15mph ish (must have been diesel on the road
) and it is happy to slither around roundabouts at both ends at 40mph. No doubt the latest hot hatches are faster than me, however I am not willing to lose my licence to prove any sort of point and it closes in on 3 figures more than quick enough.Its also why I have just bought an E36 BMW rather than something more modern - no doubt many people will look at it as an old relic but I will be enjoying pushing its limits on the road at legal speeds and in complete safety.
I've not driven or owned many cars, but the most fun was in one of 1969 vintage. No power anything, and the the steering had so much feedback and feel that you could tell exactly which way the wheels were pointing, what the road surface was, and how much grip you had in reserve. And of course it very slow, but what a sense of achievement you got when you held some speed through a twisty bit. Classic cars are legal now, I can't see that lasting forever, no doubt at some point people will be shocked to hear that people are allowed on the roads without automatic systems - how barbaric. Modern cars are very, very good, but can be terribly dull in comparison. I did the ton in this old car and I remember it still, as I did so a modern car whooshed past, I doubt he remembers doing that.
Goofnik said:
I have a Cayman GTS with PTV and the sport suspension with the super-stiff rear anti-roll bar. Too competent? It's certainly close. The brakes, despite being no bigger than a Cayman S, are certainly adequate. Steering is very good despite EPAS. Grip? That's where I disagree. It has plenty, but the super-stiff (and solid) rear anti-rollbar makes it almost as slidey as the Mazda MX-5 I had just before I got the Porsche. Especially so in the winter. Getting it to shake its hips is trivial, and big slides are nearly as easy to do as they were in the Miata.
It is however, almost "too good as a car" in everything else. It has three times the cargo capacity of an MX-5, and as much as a Toyota Camry.
It has 1.8 times the MX5 and half as much as a Camry. It is however, almost "too good as a car" in everything else. It has three times the cargo capacity of an MX-5, and as much as a Toyota Camry.
Fair play to Dan. He's got the debate going, which I'm sure was the point... Driving traffic to the site!
for what it's worth I disagree with Dan and think Porsche have got it nailed on. the practicality and usability mean that they're easy to use more of the time.
I would defy anyone to drive my boxster spyder on a quiet country road and not find it a thrilling car. In town traffic it's not that thrilling... But why would anyone need it to be then? It can swallow up a lot of stuff however, it's comfy and it all works... Most of the time. It's limits are very high but like the current 981 generation the balance is still there at road speeds. To get to the limit consistently you need a track. When i take the boxster I never feel let down, and when you get to drive one hard much like in a 981 there's a lot of feel and a lot of enjoyment to be had.
Look at the competition (if you were buying new):
Slk- not what one would call engaging , inc AMG models
z4 - not what you'd class as a 'sharp tool'
370z - another blunt instrument
TT - FWD! Or front bias with haldex
Elise - exciting, fun, but feels cheap, much less practical,
Exige - see Elise comments but feels like even less value
Alfa 4C - style over substance
When I look into the market the only other 'sports car' I can contemplate buying that fulfills my needs is from lotus, but I never quite push the button because I. Can't bring myself to spend my hard earned money (again - I have been a frequent visitor to Norfolk in the past)) on something that finished a bit... Well -craply -to be honest.
Porsches aren't perfect - I totally agree, but in the current marketplace (for a new car) there isn't much out there that's better. That goes for the 911, Cayman, Macan, Boxster.. The whole lot really.
for what it's worth I disagree with Dan and think Porsche have got it nailed on. the practicality and usability mean that they're easy to use more of the time.
I would defy anyone to drive my boxster spyder on a quiet country road and not find it a thrilling car. In town traffic it's not that thrilling... But why would anyone need it to be then? It can swallow up a lot of stuff however, it's comfy and it all works... Most of the time. It's limits are very high but like the current 981 generation the balance is still there at road speeds. To get to the limit consistently you need a track. When i take the boxster I never feel let down, and when you get to drive one hard much like in a 981 there's a lot of feel and a lot of enjoyment to be had.
Look at the competition (if you were buying new):
Slk- not what one would call engaging , inc AMG models
z4 - not what you'd class as a 'sharp tool'
370z - another blunt instrument
TT - FWD! Or front bias with haldex
Elise - exciting, fun, but feels cheap, much less practical,
Exige - see Elise comments but feels like even less value
Alfa 4C - style over substance
When I look into the market the only other 'sports car' I can contemplate buying that fulfills my needs is from lotus, but I never quite push the button because I. Can't bring myself to spend my hard earned money (again - I have been a frequent visitor to Norfolk in the past)) on something that finished a bit... Well -craply -to be honest.
Porsches aren't perfect - I totally agree, but in the current marketplace (for a new car) there isn't much out there that's better. That goes for the 911, Cayman, Macan, Boxster.. The whole lot really.
Athboy501 said:
Fair play to Dan. He's got the debate going, which I'm sure was the point... Driving traffic to the site!
for what it's worth I disagree with Dan and think Porsche have got it nailed on. the practicality and usability mean that they're easy to use more of the time.
I would defy anyone to drive my boxster spyder on a quiet country road and not find it a thrilling car. In town traffic it's not that thrilling... But why would anyone need it to be then? It can swallow up a lot of stuff however, it's comfy and it all works... Most of the time. It's limits are very high but like the current 981 generation the balance is still there at road speeds. To get to the limit consistently you need a track. When i take the boxster I never feel let down, and when you get to drive one hard much like in a 981 there's a lot of feel and a lot of enjoyment to be had.
Look at the competition (if you were buying new):
Slk- not what one would call engaging , inc AMG models
z4 - not what you'd class as a 'sharp tool'
370z - another blunt instrument
TT - FWD! Or front bias with haldex
Elise - exciting, fun, but feels cheap, much less practical,
Exige - see Elise comments but feels like even less value
Alfa 4C - style over substance
When I look into the market the only other 'sports car' I can contemplate buying that fulfills my needs is from lotus, but I never quite push the button because I. Can't bring myself to spend my hard earned money (again - I have been a frequent visitor to Norfolk in the past)) on something that finished a bit... Well -craply -to be honest.
Porsches aren't perfect - I totally agree, but in the current marketplace (for a new car) there isn't much out there that's better. That goes for the 911, Cayman, Macan, Boxster.. The whole lot really.
Depends on your priorities though doesn't it? Everyone is different but personally I would much rather have a slightly poor finish (not related to mechanical reliability) in return for astounding steering feel, brilliant damping and feeling the car move underneath me on the road at road speeds.for what it's worth I disagree with Dan and think Porsche have got it nailed on. the practicality and usability mean that they're easy to use more of the time.
I would defy anyone to drive my boxster spyder on a quiet country road and not find it a thrilling car. In town traffic it's not that thrilling... But why would anyone need it to be then? It can swallow up a lot of stuff however, it's comfy and it all works... Most of the time. It's limits are very high but like the current 981 generation the balance is still there at road speeds. To get to the limit consistently you need a track. When i take the boxster I never feel let down, and when you get to drive one hard much like in a 981 there's a lot of feel and a lot of enjoyment to be had.
Look at the competition (if you were buying new):
Slk- not what one would call engaging , inc AMG models
z4 - not what you'd class as a 'sharp tool'
370z - another blunt instrument
TT - FWD! Or front bias with haldex
Elise - exciting, fun, but feels cheap, much less practical,
Exige - see Elise comments but feels like even less value
Alfa 4C - style over substance
When I look into the market the only other 'sports car' I can contemplate buying that fulfills my needs is from lotus, but I never quite push the button because I. Can't bring myself to spend my hard earned money (again - I have been a frequent visitor to Norfolk in the past)) on something that finished a bit... Well -craply -to be honest.
Porsches aren't perfect - I totally agree, but in the current marketplace (for a new car) there isn't much out there that's better. That goes for the 911, Cayman, Macan, Boxster.. The whole lot really.
Like you say, you need a track to enjoy a Porsche. Whilst I do the odd trackday, the majority of my miles (99% plus) are on the road and I want a car that can involve me completely at those speeds when out for a blast on a Sunday afternoon. A second gear that is good for nearly 80mph would be highly frustrating.
I do love Porsche and what they have achieved in motorsport over the years but when I buy one, it will undoubtedly be as simple/pure a model as I can afford which will probably not be anything they have built in the past 10-15 years.
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