RE: The problem with Porsches: Tell Me I'm Wrong
Discussion
DonkeyApple said:
STA5H said:
The question i would ask, is a 911 and its variants a true supercar or simply a very good everyday sports car ?
Just too cheap and common to be 'super'. The performance is obviously there. Patrick Bateman said:
80mph in second, Jesus wept. Give me something I can at least legally rev completely out in the first two gears.
Actually, about 84mph to be pedantic, but yes, it's utterly ridiculous for a car that is to be used on the road 99% of the time. I love having a manual change in both my 993 and GT3, but when I ordered my Boxster GTS, I went PDK as the manual gearing was dire and a complete deal breaker after spending time in Manual and PDK cars at PEC (and don't get me started on the auto rev matching). At least PDK ratios allowed me to rev out 3rd while still under a ton. Manual proponents here will say that any manual gearbox is better than a PDK (although offer them a 3 speed and I think they'd probably relent 
), but for me, although some involvement is lost with a PDK, it was more then made up for by the enjoyment of being able to use more gears more of the time and not feel like I was driving some obvious emissions reduction / performance stymieing ploy from a boardroom.Mario149 said:
Patrick Bateman said:
80mph in second, Jesus wept. Give me something I can at least legally rev completely out in the first two gears.
Actually, about 84mph to be pedantic, but yes, it's utterly ridiculous for a car that is to be used on the road 99% of the time. I love having a manual change in both my 993 and GT3, but when I ordered my Boxster GTS, I went PDK as the manual gearing was dire and a complete deal breaker after spending time in Manual and PDK cars at PEC (and don't get me started on the auto rev matching). At least PDK ratios allowed me to rev out 3rd while still under a ton. Manual proponents here will say that any manual gearbox is better than a PDK (although offer them a 3 speed and I think they'd probably relent ), but for me, although some involvement is lost with a PDK, it was more then made up for by the enjoyment of being able to use more gears more of the time and not feel like I was driving some obvious emissions reduction / performance stymieing ploy from a boardroom.b
hstewie said:
hstewie said: Probably been said a lot over the last dozen pages but personally I'd see some variants (I lose track of how many they now do) as a supercar and some as "very good every day sports cars" - I think perhaps the thing that I always associate with Porsche is that you could jump in pretty much any of them and use it as your daily driver without expecting it to go "bang" in perhaps the way you might some other vehicles if you put similar mileage and wear and tear on them.
Maybe one day I'll be rich enough to find out
That's the one thing that puts me off a used 911 right now, I think the reliability of them is questionable and I really don't think its an acceptable risk to get into ownership and then worry about the engine lunching itself. Maybe one day I'll be rich enough to find out
yonex said:
That's the one thing that puts me off a used 911 right now, I think the reliability of them is questionable and I really don't think its an acceptable risk to get into ownership and then worry about the engine lunching itself.
Understandable, and I'm not trying to split hairs but having owned a 987 where there was also that risk, it didn't seem to make any difference if it was used for 50K a year or 500 miles a year - if it happened it happened vs. something exotic where if you did 50K a year in it you knew you were inviting trouble.Doing 80mph in second with a six speed box? Porsches have always been licence threatening, cars since the 356.
I was amazed to see the price of a 912 (4 cylinder) recently, lovely cars.
The cayman is just too heavy, electric windows? what's wrong with a leather strap?(see the weight of a 911R, then imagine that remade in carbon fibre).
I was amazed to see the price of a 912 (4 cylinder) recently, lovely cars.
The cayman is just too heavy, electric windows? what's wrong with a leather strap?(see the weight of a 911R, then imagine that remade in carbon fibre).
MissChief said:
I do think if Porsche were to build a 944 replacement they'd sell thousands of the things if they priced it right. Base model, 250 HP, 2+2, decent boot and enough space for kids or adults on a short journey in the back, £30k before options.
That would be pricing it massively wrong, not right, Mind you, they would indeed sell a lot if they were prepared to make a stonking loss on every car. Unless of course you envisage a new Porsche 944 as being just another basically front-drive MBQ Golf-based car with a Porsche badge on it. With the development and tooling costs smeared over millions and millions of MBQ cars it would be a lot cheaper than having a specific Porsche platform. It would basically be a badge-engineered Audi TT or Scirocco. Mind you a Scirocco R is over £32K and an Audi TT is in the range of £30K to £35K, so I think your price point is unrealistic even so.
A 250hp 944 cost well over £40K in 1990, with what most super-mini buyers would regard as a poverty spec these days (apart from the limited-slip diff, perhaps). That's equivalent to £90K now, and they weren't making a lot of money at all back then.
Edited by Lowtimer on Friday 29th May 09:28
Lowtimer said:
A 250hp 944 cost well over £40K in 1990, with what most super-mini buyers would regard as a poverty spec these days (apart from the limited-slip diff, perhaps). That's equivalent to £90K now, and they weren't making a lot of money at all back then.
MeasuringWorth.com says it's more like £81K, but yes, a lot more expensive. Also bear in mind though that 250bhp in 1990 was a lot more than it is now due to power "inflation". The equivalent V8 Ferrari of the time only had 20% more ponies (300bhp). So a modern day 944 costing £80K would need roughly ~470bhp for that outlay i.e. it wouldn't be a modern day 944Edited by Lowtimer on Friday 29th May 09:28
Porsche is no longer a specialist sports car company, they are a high volume prestige brand. Having exhausted the potential of the enthusiast market many moons ago, they are left with no option but to find growth in other market segments (and the growing BRIC country middle classes). Not everyone wants a visceral drive peppered with ‘character’ or to feel they are driving on the edge. For the typical new entrant to the Porsche brand, his/her appetite for risk has been reducing for years as they approached middle age, with all that that entails.
However, I think you have a point about the sheer capability of these cars. They cannot be driven safely on the road at speeds that would excite, and that defeats the object of ownership in my view. Getting in and driving your sports car, even for those that never track their cars, should feel like a celebration. It should excite the heart, and bombard the senses.
I hope that more manufacturers will go for lower weight, lower powered vehicles. But let’s be honest this is the wish of enthusiasts, not the majority of prestige car drivers. I suspect/fear that the 4C fits a wonderful niche, but a small one. My hope is that cars like the i3 and i8 are a huge success.
I’m amongst a small minority that has gone ‘back’ in time, as the recent owner of a 993 generation 911 from 1996, in coupe form with manual gear box of course. The escalating prices and usability stopped me buying an early 911, despite the long-held desire for one. The 993s were the last of the compact 911s derived from the original, before they put on a paunch, and I can still recall vividly that first test drive and how small and lithe the car felt. Even more evocative of the pure 911 experience, was the mechanical feel of the car. The steering wheel gets a wiggle on at speed on our bumpy roads, and you need to concentrate. Whilst it’s not as capable as some hot hatches today, it is unbelievably quick for a nearly 20 year old car.
What I think many manufacturers have lost site of, is that absolute speed and performance are not the purpose of a sports car. Technological superiority and supposedly comparable performance statistics are close to meaningless outside of the marketing world, and once the purchase decision has been made.
However, I think you have a point about the sheer capability of these cars. They cannot be driven safely on the road at speeds that would excite, and that defeats the object of ownership in my view. Getting in and driving your sports car, even for those that never track their cars, should feel like a celebration. It should excite the heart, and bombard the senses.
I hope that more manufacturers will go for lower weight, lower powered vehicles. But let’s be honest this is the wish of enthusiasts, not the majority of prestige car drivers. I suspect/fear that the 4C fits a wonderful niche, but a small one. My hope is that cars like the i3 and i8 are a huge success.
I’m amongst a small minority that has gone ‘back’ in time, as the recent owner of a 993 generation 911 from 1996, in coupe form with manual gear box of course. The escalating prices and usability stopped me buying an early 911, despite the long-held desire for one. The 993s were the last of the compact 911s derived from the original, before they put on a paunch, and I can still recall vividly that first test drive and how small and lithe the car felt. Even more evocative of the pure 911 experience, was the mechanical feel of the car. The steering wheel gets a wiggle on at speed on our bumpy roads, and you need to concentrate. Whilst it’s not as capable as some hot hatches today, it is unbelievably quick for a nearly 20 year old car.
What I think many manufacturers have lost site of, is that absolute speed and performance are not the purpose of a sports car. Technological superiority and supposedly comparable performance statistics are close to meaningless outside of the marketing world, and once the purchase decision has been made.
Porsche is no longer a specialist sports car company, they are a high volume prestige brand. Having exhausted the potential of the enthusiast market many moons ago, they are left with no option but to find growth in other market segments (and the growing BRIC country middle classes). Not everyone wants a visceral drive peppered with ‘character’ or to feel they are driving on the edge. For the typical new entrant to the Porsche brand, his/her appetite for risk has been reducing for years as they approached middle age, with all that that entails.
However, I think you have a point about the sheer capability of these cars. They cannot be driven safely on the road at speeds that would excite, and that defeats the object of ownership in my view. Getting in and driving your sports car, even for those that never track their cars, should feel like a celebration. It should excite the heart, and bombard the senses.
I hope that more manufacturers will go for lower weight, lower powered vehicles. But let’s be honest this is the wish of enthusiasts, not the majority of prestige car drivers. I suspect/fear that the 4C fits a wonderful niche, but a small one. My hope is that cars like the i3 and i8 are a huge success.
I’m amongst a small minority that has gone ‘back’ in time, as the recent owner of a 993 generation 911 from 1996, in coupe form with manual gear box of course. The escalating prices and usability stopped me buying an early 911, despite the long-held desire for one. The 993s were the last of the compact 911s derived from the original, before they put on a paunch, and I can still recall vividly that first test drive and how small and lithe the car felt. Even more evocative of the pure 911 experience, was the mechanical feel of the car. The steering wheel gets a wiggle on at speed on our bumpy roads, and you need to concentrate. Whilst it’s not as capable as some hot hatches today, it is unbelievably quick for a nearly 20 year old car.
What I think many manufacturers have lost site of, is that absolute speed and performance are not the purpose of a sports car. Technological superiority and supposedly comparable performance statistics are close to meaningless outside of the marketing world, and once the purchase decision has been made.
However, I think you have a point about the sheer capability of these cars. They cannot be driven safely on the road at speeds that would excite, and that defeats the object of ownership in my view. Getting in and driving your sports car, even for those that never track their cars, should feel like a celebration. It should excite the heart, and bombard the senses.
I hope that more manufacturers will go for lower weight, lower powered vehicles. But let’s be honest this is the wish of enthusiasts, not the majority of prestige car drivers. I suspect/fear that the 4C fits a wonderful niche, but a small one. My hope is that cars like the i3 and i8 are a huge success.
I’m amongst a small minority that has gone ‘back’ in time, as the recent owner of a 993 generation 911 from 1996, in coupe form with manual gear box of course. The escalating prices and usability stopped me buying an early 911, despite the long-held desire for one. The 993s were the last of the compact 911s derived from the original, before they put on a paunch, and I can still recall vividly that first test drive and how small and lithe the car felt. Even more evocative of the pure 911 experience, was the mechanical feel of the car. The steering wheel gets a wiggle on at speed on our bumpy roads, and you need to concentrate. Whilst it’s not as capable as some hot hatches today, it is unbelievably quick for a nearly 20 year old car.
What I think many manufacturers have lost site of, is that absolute speed and performance are not the purpose of a sports car. Technological superiority and supposedly comparable performance statistics are close to meaningless outside of the marketing world, and once the purchase decision has been made.
Lowtimer said:
That would be pricing it massively wrong, not right, Mind you, they would indeed sell a lot if they were prepared to make a stonking loss on every car.
Unless of course you envisage a new Porsche 944 as being just another basically front-drive MBQ Golf-based car with a Porsche badge on it. With the development and tooling costs smeared over millions and millions of MBQ cars it would be a lot cheaper than having a specific Porsche platform. It would basically be a badge-engineered Audi TT or Scirocco. Mind you a Scirocco R is over £32K and an Audi TT is in the range of £30K to £35K, so I think your price point is unrealistic even so.
A 250hp 944 cost well over £40K in 1990, with what most super-mini buyers would regard as a poverty spec these days (apart from the limited-slip diff, perhaps). That's equivalent to £90K now, and they weren't making a lot of money at all back then.
Agreed, I think its cloud cuckoo land that Porsche would ever sell a car like that, they are extremely profitable and have massive equity in their brand as a prestige car maker why would they ever sell a 'cheap' car? They simply do not need to pander to a niche market.Unless of course you envisage a new Porsche 944 as being just another basically front-drive MBQ Golf-based car with a Porsche badge on it. With the development and tooling costs smeared over millions and millions of MBQ cars it would be a lot cheaper than having a specific Porsche platform. It would basically be a badge-engineered Audi TT or Scirocco. Mind you a Scirocco R is over £32K and an Audi TT is in the range of £30K to £35K, so I think your price point is unrealistic even so.
A 250hp 944 cost well over £40K in 1990, with what most super-mini buyers would regard as a poverty spec these days (apart from the limited-slip diff, perhaps). That's equivalent to £90K now, and they weren't making a lot of money at all back then.
Edited by Lowtimer on Friday 29th May 09:28
Outliar said:
Porsche is no longer a specialist sports car company, they are a high volume prestige brand. Having exhausted the potential of the enthusiast market many moons ago, they are left with no option but to find growth in other market segments (and the growing BRIC country middle classes). Not everyone wants a visceral drive peppered with ‘character’ or to feel they are driving on the edge. For the typical new entrant to the Porsche brand, his/her appetite for risk has been reducing for years as they approached middle age, with all that that entails.
However, I think you have a point about the sheer capability of these cars. They cannot be driven safely on the road at speeds that would excite, and that defeats the object of ownership in my view. Getting in and driving your sports car, even for those that never track their cars, should feel like a celebration. It should excite the heart, and bombard the senses.
I hope that more manufacturers will go for lower weight, lower powered vehicles. But let’s be honest this is the wish of enthusiasts, not the majority of prestige car drivers. I suspect/fear that the 4C fits a wonderful niche, but a small one. My hope is that cars like the i3 and i8 are a huge success.
I’m amongst a small minority that has gone ‘back’ in time, as the recent owner of a 993 generation 911 from 1996, in coupe form with manual gear box of course. The escalating prices and usability stopped me buying an early 911, despite the long-held desire for one. The 993s were the last of the compact 911s derived from the original, before they put on a paunch, and I can still recall vividly that first test drive and how small and lithe the car felt. Even more evocative of the pure 911 experience, was the mechanical feel of the car. The steering wheel gets a wiggle on at speed on our bumpy roads, and you need to concentrate. Whilst it’s not as capable as some hot hatches today, it is unbelievably quick for a nearly 20 year old car.
What I think many manufacturers have lost site of, is that absolute speed and performance are not the purpose of a sports car. Technological superiority and supposedly comparable performance statistics are close to meaningless outside of the marketing world, and once the purchase decision has been made.
Where does the i8 fit into this? A huge, heavy, 4WD car with a nasty little petrol engine. Hardly a 993 revival.However, I think you have a point about the sheer capability of these cars. They cannot be driven safely on the road at speeds that would excite, and that defeats the object of ownership in my view. Getting in and driving your sports car, even for those that never track their cars, should feel like a celebration. It should excite the heart, and bombard the senses.
I hope that more manufacturers will go for lower weight, lower powered vehicles. But let’s be honest this is the wish of enthusiasts, not the majority of prestige car drivers. I suspect/fear that the 4C fits a wonderful niche, but a small one. My hope is that cars like the i3 and i8 are a huge success.
I’m amongst a small minority that has gone ‘back’ in time, as the recent owner of a 993 generation 911 from 1996, in coupe form with manual gear box of course. The escalating prices and usability stopped me buying an early 911, despite the long-held desire for one. The 993s were the last of the compact 911s derived from the original, before they put on a paunch, and I can still recall vividly that first test drive and how small and lithe the car felt. Even more evocative of the pure 911 experience, was the mechanical feel of the car. The steering wheel gets a wiggle on at speed on our bumpy roads, and you need to concentrate. Whilst it’s not as capable as some hot hatches today, it is unbelievably quick for a nearly 20 year old car.
What I think many manufacturers have lost site of, is that absolute speed and performance are not the purpose of a sports car. Technological superiority and supposedly comparable performance statistics are close to meaningless outside of the marketing world, and once the purchase decision has been made.
Outliar said:
What I think many manufacturers have lost sight of, is that absolute speed and performance are not the purpose of a sports car. Technological superiority and supposedly comparable performance statistics are close to meaningless outside of the marketing world, and once the purchase decision has been made.
Very wise words and I completely agree.Gassing Station | General Gassing | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff