Clutches again.

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Discussion

divetheworld

Original Poster:

2,565 posts

134 months

Monday 25th May 2015
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So, it looks like there are a few more options these days.

http://www.davidapplebyengineering.com/page54.html

http://www.bamfordrose.com/v8-and-v12-options.html

http://www.astonmartincare.co.uk/clutch/

http://www.velocityap.com/Aston-Martin-Clutch-Flyw...

Last one is interesting. New AP stuff there.




Edited by divetheworld on Saturday 30th May 19:41

JohnG1

3,462 posts

204 months

Monday 25th May 2015
quotequote all
That AP racing clutch is interesting. Google the part number and you see that it's categorised as a cerametallic race clutch.

http://www.apracing.com/product_details/race_car/m...

http://www.apracing.com/drawings/cp7382-1cd.pdf

Problem is that those clutches are very much binary in operation - they either bite or they don't. There is very little slipping. So it's a bugger to reverse or bimble along in traffic.

There's a reason why race cars use this style of clutch and there's a reason why they are not so much fun on a road car...



divetheworld

Original Poster:

2,565 posts

134 months

Monday 25th May 2015
quotequote all
Yup, not a fan of sintered/cerametallic for a sportshift application anyway.
I'm sure their great as a performance product right up until you get stuck on the M6 in traffic.

These twin plate organics have piqued my interest. As always is the case in Sod's law, I've just got the V8 just the way I like it. I've spent a small fortune pimping it up so if these clutched transform the car as much as some say, it might just make it a keeper. Are they really that good or is it just a more resilient component?

Edited by divetheworld on Monday 25th May 09:50

JohnG1

3,462 posts

204 months

Monday 25th May 2015
quotequote all
divetheworld said:
Yup, not a fan of sintered/cerametallic for a sportshift application anyway.
I'm sure their great as a performance product right up until you get stuck on the M6 in traffic.

These twin plate organics have piqued my interest. As always is the case in Sod's law, I've just got the V8 just the way I like it. I've spent a small fortune pimping it up so if these clutched transform the car as much as some say, it might just make it a keeper. Are they really that good or is it just a more resilient component?

Edited by divetheworld on Monday 25th May 09:50
I have driven single plate and double plate clutch Vantages, but one was a V8 and the other a V12, so I cannot give a comparison of apples with apples.

I only really got involved in clutches when my V12 had a problem and I ended up in a bit of a set-to with AML to get them to replace with the right part. So I researched the topic in case I had to buy a clutch myself. Where I got to was very simple - if I had to buy a new clutch for a V12 or a V8 due to regular wear and tear I would get an organic twin plate from Bamford Rose. They use the same sort of material as the 1-77 clutch and they warranty their work (and they fit the right bearings too!).

When folks offer racing clutches "because race cars use them" it's often a nonsense argument - race cars are for the track and most folks drive their Aston Martin on road most of the time. The binary cerametallic/metallic/sintered clutch is no fun in traffic as you say.

I would not rip and replace a working clutch though unless it was clearly about to give up and you were having other work done. While I see the merits of rip and replace - effectively you are throwing away whatever amount of friction material was left just to upgrade. Why not wait until it's all gone then replace? Having said that, I am writing from the perspective of a manual owner, so I would defer to the ASM1, ASM2 and ASM3 crowd who may actually suggest that it's worthwhile to rip and replace to get rid of some of the nodding dog effect on gearchanges with those gearboxes.

I think Mikey K may be the man to ask about this?

W1111AM

942 posts

128 months

Monday 25th May 2015
quotequote all
divetheworld said:
Yup, not a fan of sintered/cerametallic for a sportshift application anyway.
I'm sure their great as a performance product right up until you get stuck on the M6 in traffic.

These twin plate organics have piqued my interest. As always is the case in Sod's law, I've just got the V8 just the way I like it. I've spent a small fortune pimping it up so if these clutched transform the car as much as some say, it might just make it a keeper. Are they really that good or is it just a more resilient component?

Edited by divetheworld on Monday 25th May 09:50
I have the BR Twin and it is a game changer. It is so smooth and effortless.

rickyf1

43 posts

116 months

Monday 25th May 2015
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I have had the Appleby twin plate sintered on my V8 for about a year now - still smiling every time I drive it! You soon get used to the narrow(ish) bite point and its fine in traffic but when you get to the open road its a game changer - gear shifts are much quicker and more precise and the effort on my left foot is less than my misseses Fiesta!

Stuart Dickinson

998 posts

206 months

Monday 25th May 2015
quotequote all
JohnG1 said:
When folks offer racing clutches "because race cars use them" it's often a nonsense argument - race cars are for the track and most folks drive their Aston Martin on road most of the time. The binary cerametallic/metallic/sintered clutch is no fun in traffic as you say.
This clutch is definitely a 'Race' product. I would not recommend it for road use unless you are prepared for some serious compromises in driveability.

mikey k

13,011 posts

215 months

Monday 25th May 2015
quotequote all
JohnG1 said:
When folks offer racing clutches "because race cars use them" it's often a nonsense argument - race cars are for the track and most folks drive their Aston Martin on road most of the time. The binary cerametallic/metallic/sintered clutch is no fun in traffic as you say.

I would not rip and replace a working clutch though unless it was clearly about to give up and you were having other work done. While I see the merits of rip and replace - effectively you are throwing away whatever amount of friction material was left just to upgrade. Why not wait until it's all gone then replace? Having said that, I am writing from the perspective of a manual owner, so I would defer to the ASM1, ASM2 and ASM3 crowd who may actually suggest that it's worthwhile to rip and replace to get rid of some of the nodding dog effect on gearchanges with those gearboxes.

I think Mikey K may be the man to ask about this?
yes avoid "because race car" clutches
I drove the original twin plate one Jessica first had in and boy that was hard work at junctions and gonig slow frown
The flywheel/clutch that Purdey/Pearl & Johnny had fitted made a massive difference to the gear change in manual and auto
That said I'd only o it as you John says if other work is needed or it has gone.


Edited by mikey k on Monday 25th May 20:50

divetheworld

Original Poster:

2,565 posts

134 months

Tuesday 26th May 2015
quotequote all
Do V12 Vantages twin plate clutches suffer limited lifespan or is that "sorted"?

JohnG1

3,462 posts

204 months

Tuesday 26th May 2015
quotequote all
divetheworld said:
Do V12 Vantages twin plate clutches suffer limited lifespan or is that "sorted"?
The only issue I know of with the V12 clutch was squealing on power uptake, not premature wear. The affected part was replaced by AML (should have been offered for free but took an argument or two in some cases). As far as I know there are no cases of premature wear on the V12 twin plate clutch - it's a solid piece of kit that can take the torque.

V8V Pete

2,496 posts

125 months

Tuesday 26th May 2015
quotequote all
JohnG1 said:
divetheworld said:
Do V12 Vantages twin plate clutches suffer limited lifespan or is that "sorted"?
The only issue I know of with the V12 clutch was squealing on power uptake, not premature wear. The affected part was replaced by AML (should have been offered for free but took an argument or two in some cases). As far as I know there are no cases of premature wear on the V12 twin plate clutch - it's a solid piece of kit that can take the torque.
That depends on your definition of "premature wear".

Jonby's V12VR clutch went at 19K miles http://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&a... which most would consider premature.

I'm not sure we really know what the average life of the V12V clutch will be as so few have done high mileages. I suspect 19k miles will just prove to be the bottom end of the normal distribution because, let's face it, that distribution is extremely wide with the V8V clutch ranging from 5K to over 100K miles depending on driving conditions/style/ability.

Personally, I think I'm going to "rip & replace" my working standard V8V clutch for a BR twin plate as I can't get a V12V onto my drive and therefore the V8 is a keeper and I want it to be as good as it can be. No point waiting until this clutch dies as that is just time wasted driving the car with a sub-standard clutch in it rather than enjoying it as it should have been made in the first place.

mikey k

13,011 posts

215 months

Tuesday 26th May 2015
quotequote all
I know of a white V12VR that had a clutch at 3.8k miles and the owner was charged for it!

jonby

5,357 posts

156 months

Tuesday 26th May 2015
quotequote all
mikey k said:
I know of a white V12VR that had a clutch at 3.8k miles and the owner was charged for it!
My understanding is that 30-40k miles is probably considered reasonable/typical for the V12

Of course that partly depends on driving style

It is theoretically possible to destroy a clutch in 1,000 miles if it's really abused

I'm struggling to see how the clutch change at 3.8k miles could be considered acceptable unless it was multiple owner/ex demo/thrashed/etc


bogie

16,342 posts

271 months

Tuesday 26th May 2015
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I dont know what everyone is doing to their cars to go through clutches in a few thousand miles. Im over 70k miles now on my original clutch... I have owned the car from 2007/6k miles and it has been enthusiastically used on trackdays, sprints, as well as 3000mile touring trips too smile

/tempting fate now, its got to be nearly ready for a new one soon.....

mikey k

13,011 posts

215 months

Tuesday 26th May 2015
quotequote all
jonby said:
mikey k said:
I know of a white V12VR that had a clutch at 3.8k miles and the owner was charged for it!
My understanding is that 30-40k miles is probably considered reasonable/typical for the V12

Of course that partly depends on driving style

It is theoretically possible to destroy a clutch in 1,000 miles if it's really abused

I'm struggling to see how the clutch change at 3.8k miles could be considered acceptable unless it was multiple owner/ex demo/thrashed/etc
yes
047 of the 101
Even on the new clutch the bite point was very indistinct
I suspect there were other issues with it


Edited by mikey k on Tuesday 26th May 10:04

mikey k

13,011 posts

215 months

Tuesday 26th May 2015
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divetheworld

Original Poster:

2,565 posts

134 months

Tuesday 26th May 2015
quotequote all
Test drive a V12V today..... Subject may be a moot point now redface

Impasse

15,099 posts

240 months

Tuesday 26th May 2015
quotequote all
divetheworld said:
Test drive a V12V today..... Subject may be a moot point now redface
Three grand on a clutch or thirty grand to change the whole car. Strange thing, man maths.

mikey k

13,011 posts

215 months

Tuesday 26th May 2015
quotequote all
divetheworld said:
Test drive a V12V today..... Subject may be a moot point now redface
hehe you went and test drove it even after all the warnings on here!

divetheworld

Original Poster:

2,565 posts

134 months

Tuesday 26th May 2015
quotequote all
Impasse said:
divetheworld said:
Test drive a V12V today..... Subject may be a moot point now redface
Three grand on a clutch or thirty grand to change the whole car. Strange thing, man maths.
mikey k said:
hehe you went and test drove it even after all the warnings on here!
I know, I know....

Man maths as follows;
Twin plate clutch = driving fun 15pts, cost -1pts
V12 Vantage = driving fun 150pts, cost -10pts

Yup, adds up perfectly. If I can find one in silver then the missus won't even notice!