Choices after an m3

[SBN]

So the m3 has gone and I need a tourer.

I have about £6k to inject and speaking to many dealers a new 335d x drive m sport with good spec ( pan roof, pro Nav, m sport plus) is coming up at £400 month.

Thoughts are I need adaptive drive on 335d but whilst this improves things I have heard the rwd f31 are better handling. So am considering a 335i or 330d and dare I say it an s4 avant.

On paper the 335d looks amazing and not far off the pace of my old e90 m3 which quite frankly is bonkers! However I want an engaging drive and whilst diesels are good I prefer petrol cars.

Thoughts please?

[Tea Pot One]

I think a 335d xdrive touring would be superb ! As quick as most things, 4wd and economical. I find the idea of a diesel as quick as my Z4 35iS quite amusing. If I did any miles I would be seriously interested. I had a 6 seconds to 60 E92 330d LCI and loved it - but 4 miles each way to work means a diesel is a no no.

[Smuler]

Can you get a 335i with a manual gearbox? I found (after test drives) the newer BMWs feel lighter steering and lose that raw connection with road, present on the older ones and the M cars. Therefore manual, petrol, RWD , got to be the narrowest gap, for you, after the M3 Saloon?

[MrBurt]

SBN said:

So the m3 has gone and I need a tourer.

I have about £6k to inject and speaking to many dealers a new 335d x drive m sport with good spec ( pan roof, pro Nav, m sport plus) is coming up at £400 month.

Thoughts are I need adaptive drive on 335d but whilst this improves things I have heard the rwd f31 are better handling. So am considering a 335i or 330d and dare I say it an s4 avant.

On paper the 335d looks amazing and not far off the pace of my old e90 m3 which quite frankly is bonkers! However I want an engaging drive and whilst diesels are good I prefer petrol cars.

Thoughts please?

If you want an engaging drive I would forget the x drive. Mine is competent but rather dull. Add the F31 light steering and I am struggling to find much fun. Go petrol with rear drive, basic is best with the F31. Also don't go bigger than 18" on the wheels if you want to brake on frost damaged roads without tram lining all over the place.
It's petrol for me next time if I can sort my commute out. Good luck.

[SBN]

Tramlining really?

Is it as bad as the e46 was on 19's?

[moffat]

SBN said:

So the m3 has gone and I need a tourer.

I have about £6k to inject and speaking to many dealers a new 335d x drive m sport with good spec ( pan roof, pro Nav, m sport plus) is coming up at £400 month.

Thoughts are I need adaptive drive on 335d but whilst this improves things I have heard the rwd f31 are better handling. So am considering a 335i or 330d and dare I say it an s4 avant.

On paper the 335d looks amazing and not far off the pace of my old e90 m3 which quite frankly is bonkers! However I want an engaging drive and whilst diesels are good I prefer petrol cars.

Thoughts please?

Is your mileage increasing so much that you need a diesel?

If not go for a fun estate e.g. C63, RS4. If that's too rich, go 335i or S4.

Diesel is naff, I've gone from a C63 to a 640d (I'm doing quite a few miles currently) and although I love the car, I can't wait to get back to a high powered petrol.

[SBN]

New car has to achieve 33mpg combined

Which is either a 335i and s4 2012 or newer,

[b14]

Smuler said:

Can you get a 335i with a manual gearbox? I found (after test drives) the newer BMWs feel lighter steering and lose that raw connection with road, present on the older ones and the M cars. Therefore manual, petrol, RWD , got to be the narrowest gap, for you, after the M3 Saloon?

Yes you can. I had one. There aren't many out there, but it's a really nice gearbox and suits the engine well.

[RichardM5]

It's the 335d that's auto only.

[northpolar]

You really need to test drive a diesel before carrying your thoughts any further forward!

Diesel performance stats disguise the nature of power delivery and the noises generated in the process. Until warmed up, especially in winter months, diesels are (comparatively) like tractors and have a poor relationship with auto boxes (albeit you want manual). Power is delivered on a very flat torque 'curve' compared with a typical NA petrol engine, never mind an M3! I love my 535d once up and running but it ain't no M3.

Conversely, and I'll qualify this statement by sticking my hand up and admitting I haven't driven any, the modern petrol turbo engines seem to be moving ever closer to diesels in terms of fat torque curves accompanied by rather flatulent sounds - the other week I saw a new M4 take off from near standstill - very quick but it sounded absolutely awful - probably in line with the current breed of F1 cars. I suspect an S4 awaits, but do try out a diesel first!!

Peter

[335d]

northpolar said:

You really need to test drive a diesel before carrying your thoughts any further forward!

Diesel performance stats disguise the nature of power delivery and the noises generated in the process. Until warmed up, especially in winter months, diesels are (comparatively) like tractors and have a poor relationship with auto boxes (albeit you want manual). Power is delivered on a very flat torque 'curve' compared with a typical NA petrol engine, never mind an M3! I love my 535d once up and running but it ain't no M3.

Peter

I disagree completely about the auto boxes. I think the ZF8 gearbox on the F30 (and F10) works exceptionally well with the 6 cylinder diesels. The previous generation of 6 speed boxes couldn't disguise the diesel engine's main drawback - the limited rev range. They felt rather clumsy if you tried to drive quickly. The combination of rapid smooth shifts and 8 ratios almost entirely removes this clumsiness for me. For the first time in a diesel, I actually find the 335d to be a fun car, rather than just a highly competent one.

I find that the ZF8 has dealt with the major downside of diesel engines. We still have to put up with the authentic Massey Ferguson noise at idle, but that seems a small price to pay for the performance/economy.

That said, all F30s and variants including sDrive M Sport feel a bit too soft and imprecise, but there is a relatively cheap and simple cure for that with ACS springs.

[cerb4.5lee]

335d said:

I disagree completely about the auto boxes. I think the ZF8 gearbox on the F30 (and F10) works exceptionally well with the 6 cylinder diesels. The previous generation of 6 speed boxes couldn't disguise the diesel engine's main drawback - the limited rev range. They felt rather clumsy if you tried to drive quickly. The combination of rapid smooth shifts and 8 ratios almost entirely removes this clumsiness for me. For the first time in a diesel, I actually find the 335d to be a fun car, rather than just a highly competent one.

I find that the ZF8 has dealt with the major downside of diesel engines. We still have to put up with the authentic Massey Ferguson noise at idle, but that seems a small price to pay for the performance/economy.

That said, all F30s and variants including sDrive M Sport feel a bit too soft and imprecise, but there is a relatively cheap and simple cure for that with ACS springs.

I agree also that a diesel suits the ZF8 and I also appreciate that you acknowledge the engine's short coming at idle too rather than some that seem blind into thinking a diesel is super quiet.

The auto makes so much use of the short rev range and the great slug of torque.

[northpolar]

cerb4.5lee said:

335d said:

I disagree completely about the auto boxes. I think the ZF8 gearbox on the F30 (and F10) works exceptionally well with the 6 cylinder diesels. The previous generation of 6 speed boxes couldn't disguise the diesel engine's main drawback - the limited rev range. They felt rather clumsy if you tried to drive quickly. The combination of rapid smooth shifts and 8 ratios almost entirely removes this clumsiness for me. For the first time in a diesel, I actually find the 335d to be a fun car, rather than just a highly competent one.

I find that the ZF8 has dealt with the major downside of diesel engines. We still have to put up with the authentic Massey Ferguson noise at idle, but that seems a small price to pay for the performance/economy.

That said, all F30s and variants including sDrive M Sport feel a bit too soft and imprecise, but there is a relatively cheap and simple cure for that with ACS springs.

I agree also that a diesel suits the ZF8 and I also appreciate that you acknowledge the engine's short coming at idle too rather than some that seem blind into thinking a diesel is super quiet.

The auto makes so much use of the short rev range and the great slug of torque.

Perhaps my wording was less precise than intended which may have you both jumping (understandably) to the wrong conclusion about my comment. My reference was to the nature of 530 & 535d engine/ gearboxes in winter when the engine is cold. For the first 10-15 minutes I find them all over the place - the torque seems not to be there, everything feels like hard work and it's a struggle to encourage the gearbox to smoothly shift up. Once thoroughly warmed up, I find the gearbox and engine work brilliantly together and I don't even have an issue with idle noise. Living in central London, I just find the warm up cycle in slow moving conditions less than ideal.

Peter

[335d]

northpolar said:

Perhaps my wording was less precise than intended which may have you both jumping (understandably) to the wrong conclusion about my comment. My reference was to the nature of 530 & 535d engine/ gearboxes in winter when the engine is cold. For the first 10-15 minutes I find them all over the place - the torque seems not to be there, everything feels like hard work and it's a struggle to encourage the gearbox to smoothly shift up. Once thoroughly warmed up, I find the gearbox and engine work brilliantly together and I don't even have an issue with idle noise. Living in central London, I just find the warm up cycle in slow moving conditions less than ideal.

Peter

Apologies for getting the wrong end of the stick.

I find my gearbox is pretty good even from a cold start in winter, but perhaps the key difference is I live in the middle of nowhere, so it has a few undemanding miles when all it has to do is drift up and down between about 4th and 7th. By the time I ask anything more complicated of it, such as tackling a steep hill, it has warmed up.

Amongst 335d owners, I have noticed a pattern in that city dwellers are generally less satisfied with their choice of car and perhaps wish they had bought a petrol one. This may be due to the very low speed petrol refinement being significantly better. Those who spend most of their time outside cities seem to have quite a different experience, and rate their diesel car much higher. The difference in refinement between petrol and diesel seems to disappear above 30mph and even reverse at a higher speed with greater diesel torque on tap.

[northpolar]

Interesting observation re comments from 335d owners which probably correlates closely with my experience. Where I live the speed limit is 20mph and more often than not you're lucky if you can get up to that speed in the immediate vicinity of my home! Hence the warm up cycle is probably exacerbated. 2-3 miles go by before I can think of shifting up into 4th gear!! As I say though, once properly warmed through, the transmission and engine are a fab match.

Peter

[drmark]

SBN said:

New car has to achieve 33mpg combined

Which is either a 335i and s4 2012 or newer,

Good luck getting that out of either of those two - unless you have a light right foot. Both will do that sort of mpg (and more) on long journeys, but not combined. The S4 I tried managed 25 over a day and I wasn't trying very hard.

[JNW1]

drmark said:

SBN said:

New car has to achieve 33mpg combined

Which is either a 335i and s4 2012 or newer,

Good luck getting that out of either of those two - unless you have a light right foot. Both will do that sort of mpg (and more) on long journeys, but not combined. The S4 I tried managed 25 over a day and I wasn't trying very hard.

I guess the OP is assuming he won't achieve the combined figure for any of the cars he's looking at but is using them as benchmarks for comparison? My E92 335i with the N55 engine achieved just over 30mpg measured over 30k miles of mixed driving; as you say, it would beat the combined figure (33.6) on a long run but short runs and/or stop-start driving soon dropped the figure into the 20's (albeit the worst figure I achieved for an individual tank was 28 which I still think was pretty respectable!). By way of comparison, over 11k miles in the same driving conditions my F31 335d has averaged 38mpg (so better in absolute terms but 25% off the claimed combined figure as opposed to 10% off with the petrol). I agonised between 335i, 335d and S4 Avant before making my choice and 20k miles a year pushed me to the 335d; however, knowing what I know now vis a vis real world economy (and hence range), if I was choosing again I think I'd take advantage of some of the the run-out deals on the S4 (circa 20% discount I believe?) and probably go for one of those instead.....

[SBN]

Not trying to achieve those mpg really just need to provide it to work because they have a minimum mpg for fuel cards. It's never tracked it just needs to be the claimed combined mpg figure.

My m3 averaged 22.8mpg over the 10k miles I put on her which i thought was pretty good. This is very near the claimed figure so I assume a petrol car would be better than a diesel mainly because my 12 mile commute each day wouldn't give a diesel enough time to get anywhere near its claimed unless I babied it all the way.

[JNW1]

SBN said:

Not trying to achieve those mpg really just need to provide it to work because they have a minimum mpg for fuel cards. It's never tracked it just needs to be the claimed combined mpg figure.

My m3 averaged 22.8mpg over the 10k miles I put on her which i thought was pretty good. This is very near the claimed figure so I assume a petrol car would be better than a diesel mainly because my 12 mile commute each day wouldn't give a diesel enough time to get anywhere near its claimed unless I babied it all the way.

Given your mileage profile what's your motive behind considering a diesel? There are those who think they make for a nicer road car than a petrol (because of the effortless power delivery) but I suspect the vast majority of diesel owners buy them because of the improved mpg and/or range; although I have a 335d at the moment personally I wouldn't touch one if I was doing less than 15k miles a year and on a relatively short commute like yours you won't see anything like the claimed mpg from a large diesel (and you don't exactly need a long range either!). Therefore, just curious why the diesel is in the equation at all?