R400/420 too hardcore for beginner
Discussion
Hi
I'm pretty much decided on getting a Caterham. I just want it for driving on roads but I don't want to get a lesser powered one then be gutted I didn't go for something with more grunt afterwards.
Is it advisable to work your way up to something like an R400 or doesn't it really matter? I have no real experience of a car like this and currently drive a 997 3.8.
Thanks
I'm pretty much decided on getting a Caterham. I just want it for driving on roads but I don't want to get a lesser powered one then be gutted I didn't go for something with more grunt afterwards.
Is it advisable to work your way up to something like an R400 or doesn't it really matter? I have no real experience of a car like this and currently drive a 997 3.8.
Thanks
JasonRIx said:
Hi
I'm pretty much decided on getting a Caterham. I just want it for driving on roads but I don't want to get a lesser powered one then be gutted I didn't go for something with more grunt afterwards.
Is it advisable to work your way up to something like an R400 or doesn't it really matter? I have no real experience of a car like this and currently drive a 997 3.8.
Thanks
Don't see why not unless you have very little self control. I'm pretty much decided on getting a Caterham. I just want it for driving on roads but I don't want to get a lesser powered one then be gutted I didn't go for something with more grunt afterwards.
Is it advisable to work your way up to something like an R400 or doesn't it really matter? I have no real experience of a car like this and currently drive a 997 3.8.
Thanks
I sold my 7 year old 997S last year and ordered an R400 in kit form. Delivered to me in December, built by end of March (I was away February) and now with Caterham, having had it's PBC, awaiting IVA.
I have driven a couple of R400s and found them quite nice and easy to drive steadily but with plenty of performance for when you can use it.
Work your way up with the same car!
Have you driven a Caterham yet?
If not, go and hire one for a day. You'll be surprised how "little" amount of power you need to have fun.
That said, given you have a 997, I don't think you'd find an R400 too much, but it'll certainly be a sensory overload the first few times you drive it.
If not, go and hire one for a day. You'll be surprised how "little" amount of power you need to have fun.
That said, given you have a 997, I don't think you'd find an R400 too much, but it'll certainly be a sensory overload the first few times you drive it.
I had a 997 C4S - was going to get an R400 but went for the SuperSport R (now the 360) - I then, after a couple of months had the full engine upgrade at Caterham which makes it slightly quicker than the R400 (220bhp).
It doesn't take long to get to grips with the power. Totally / totally different drive than the 997. I didn't really smile that much when driving the 997. I now come back with jaw ache and arm ache.
Much better !
Each to their own though.
It doesn't take long to get to grips with the power. Totally / totally different drive than the 997. I didn't really smile that much when driving the 997. I now come back with jaw ache and arm ache.
Much better !
Each to their own though.
JasonRIx said:
Hi
I'm pretty much decided on getting a Caterham. I just want it for driving on roads but I don't want to get a lesser powered one then be gutted I didn't go for something with more grunt afterwards.
Is it advisable to work your way up to something like an R400 or doesn't it really matter? I have no real experience of a car like this and currently drive a 997 3.8.
Thanks
Just had same dilemma couple months ago, I run a 996 GT3 and was afraid of buying something under powered and didn't want it to feel slower than the Pork. I settled for a 98 superlight R (minister upgrade, 220bhp) The difference between the Pork and Caterham are kind of undescribable, (hugely different cars) The Porsche you really really have to be going some to feel the speed as they so good, but the Caterham, way it works is just fantastic, certainly feel the difference in weight when going some. Don't know how the engines keep taking the abuse!! Certainly a different kind of drivers cars.I'm pretty much decided on getting a Caterham. I just want it for driving on roads but I don't want to get a lesser powered one then be gutted I didn't go for something with more grunt afterwards.
Is it advisable to work your way up to something like an R400 or doesn't it really matter? I have no real experience of a car like this and currently drive a 997 3.8.
Thanks
I would certainly try the K's before you buy a duratec one, I love the way the K revs so easily and frantically, the duratec supersport R at Caterham South I tried felt bit dull as comparison.
The car you are looking at is probobly perfect for what you want....Good luck
JasonRIx said:
I haven't actually driven one yet. I'm going for a day hire next week. I think they hire out the 270s there. I am really into the idea of building one from scratch and these responses are what I wanted to hear to be honest.
Thanks
You want to make up your mind quickly and get an order in. I waited 5 months for my kit and I understand it's more now.Thanks
Really nice to build. Some (well documented) frustrations with a sometimes vague and contradictory manual but in general well engineered and finished kit. Tales of missing parts but I only had a few and they were all supplied quickly.
A few, not very good, pics of mine during the build and on its way for the PBC.
Edited by anonymous-user on Monday 25th May 21:58
Edited by anonymous-user on Monday 25th May 22:00
Had the same problem. Ended up getting an R400 Duratec SV with RBTB upgrade to 220bhp.
When Ive got my wife in the car, it trundles around and you would never ever guess at its performance. Its dead simple to chuck it into 6th gear and just cruise along enjoying the drive.
Get the revs up though and it's off like a stabbed rat.
I got mine as a track day car, replacing my old one. Its going to take a bit of getting used to the power but Id rather go steady and work my way up (including some decent instruction) than buy something underpowered and be underwhelmed within a few months.
See if you can get a test drive. I had a go in an R400 S3 at Caterham South before ending up buying through a private sale.
When Ive got my wife in the car, it trundles around and you would never ever guess at its performance. Its dead simple to chuck it into 6th gear and just cruise along enjoying the drive.
Get the revs up though and it's off like a stabbed rat.
I got mine as a track day car, replacing my old one. Its going to take a bit of getting used to the power but Id rather go steady and work my way up (including some decent instruction) than buy something underpowered and be underwhelmed within a few months.
See if you can get a test drive. I had a go in an R400 S3 at Caterham South before ending up buying through a private sale.
I am always the voice of the lower powered caterham in these debates. I don't think it's necessarily about whether there's too much power for a beginner. Yes if you were actually a real beginner in performance driving terms, you might think about it. But pretty much any 7 can bite the proper inexperienced driver.
For me it's what works for you personally. I maintain that more power does not equal more fun (actually in any car, but specifically the 7). I worked my way up to k-R500 and then down to k-1600-ss.
The last one was by the the most fun for me. Perfect for road driving and great for track-days. I don't think I ever thought this is underpowered on track.
So my advice is to test drive a few and see how you get on. You don't need big power to make it the most fun driving car on the planet. Some people like the big power. Make sure you make up your own mind! I'd actually not go for a new self build for a first 7. You are pretty (mentally) committed. Big cost, big wait, shiny new car you are afraid to get stone-chipped. My route would be get a lowest sensible cost used car, live with it and then decide where to go (if anywhere).
Bert
For me it's what works for you personally. I maintain that more power does not equal more fun (actually in any car, but specifically the 7). I worked my way up to k-R500 and then down to k-1600-ss.
The last one was by the the most fun for me. Perfect for road driving and great for track-days. I don't think I ever thought this is underpowered on track.
So my advice is to test drive a few and see how you get on. You don't need big power to make it the most fun driving car on the planet. Some people like the big power. Make sure you make up your own mind! I'd actually not go for a new self build for a first 7. You are pretty (mentally) committed. Big cost, big wait, shiny new car you are afraid to get stone-chipped. My route would be get a lowest sensible cost used car, live with it and then decide where to go (if anywhere).
Bert
Red Seven said:
BertBert said:
My route would be get a lowest sensible cost used car, live with it and then decide where to go (if anywhere).
I'd second that!It's much easier to decide what you want or need once you've lived with a car for a while.
For road use, 150-160bhp is the sweet spot.
Enough power to be stupid quick, but not too much that you cant use it all as and when safe to do so.
I would say an R300 would be perfect.
Then, if you want more power you have the choice of getting some head work done and perhaps seeing 180bhp or going the next step to the 400/500.
Personally, if you go 300 the next step is 500 or 620. If you go 400 you will end up at the same place....
Enough power to be stupid quick, but not too much that you cant use it all as and when safe to do so.
I would say an R300 would be perfect.
Then, if you want more power you have the choice of getting some head work done and perhaps seeing 180bhp or going the next step to the 400/500.
Personally, if you go 300 the next step is 500 or 620. If you go 400 you will end up at the same place....
They are not too hardcore for a beginner any more than other Sevens are. And the issues aren't about speed but about the fact that few people have experienced rwd cars without electronic safety nets- I suspect most cars of the AMG school would be near undriveable in the wet without ESC EBD and all the other acronyms. Most modern fwd cars are virtually fool proof too. But Sevens are defined by what they haven't got and so the driver is on his own. Hit the brakes too hard and they lock, hit the gas too much and they will go sideways, hit something solid and there isn't an airbag.
Drive it like a modern car and you will get in trouble; learn its foibles and you will have the time of your life . I've said it before- sometimes you won't believe how fast a Seven can go but sometime you won't believe how slowly you have to drive one to stay safe- typically heavy rain , bumpy roads
Drive it like a modern car and you will get in trouble; learn its foibles and you will have the time of your life . I've said it before- sometimes you won't believe how fast a Seven can go but sometime you won't believe how slowly you have to drive one to stay safe- typically heavy rain , bumpy roads
coppice said:
sometimes you won't believe how fast a Seven can go but sometime you won't believe how slowly you have to drive one to stay safe- typically heavy rain , bumpy roads
+1 I've found them to be very sensitive to suspension / geometry setup. You can easily create a pointy, darty car, which is great in the dry but a liability in the damp/wet, or something fairly benign which is very progressive in the wet, but sometimes a bit anodyne in the dry. They're fairly easy to change the setups on though.
An LSD can have a dramatic change on the car's handling, which can be further tweaked, depending on the preload and accel/decal ramp angles used in the diff....!
As above, they'll teach you a lot about driving, effects of weight shift coming in to/out of corners, etc
Drive a few
It's pretty much all been covered already.
The difference in driving experience between the 997 and the 7 is huge.
Best to try few different variants and see what suits. It is very tempting to go for the big numbers on BHP but it will all come down to the type of usage you intend.
A lot of track work will lean towards an R400 type power. As you can be left feeling a bit frustrated with lesser powered cars if you are going balls to the wall and want to pass everything in sight.
However more road usage will definitely side with a bit less power.
I started off with a 1.6K and then moved up to an R400 K that was pushing out 230 bhp. And to be brutally honest I had as much fun with the 1.6 , if not more than the R400 on the road. I had read and was also given advice such as this but of course you get a bit head strong and imagine that feeling of so much power being what you need. But the reality was track time was a bit sporadic and ended up with more road usage , and the frustration was reflected the opposite way in feeling you had to be restrained and could not release the full potential of the car on the road for obvious reasons.
Of course the tables were turned when on track as it gives you a grin that would split your face in two.
So again to sum up think carefully about the realistic use of the car and then go from there
The difference in driving experience between the 997 and the 7 is huge.
Best to try few different variants and see what suits. It is very tempting to go for the big numbers on BHP but it will all come down to the type of usage you intend.
A lot of track work will lean towards an R400 type power. As you can be left feeling a bit frustrated with lesser powered cars if you are going balls to the wall and want to pass everything in sight.
However more road usage will definitely side with a bit less power.
I started off with a 1.6K and then moved up to an R400 K that was pushing out 230 bhp. And to be brutally honest I had as much fun with the 1.6 , if not more than the R400 on the road. I had read and was also given advice such as this but of course you get a bit head strong and imagine that feeling of so much power being what you need. But the reality was track time was a bit sporadic and ended up with more road usage , and the frustration was reflected the opposite way in feeling you had to be restrained and could not release the full potential of the car on the road for obvious reasons.
Of course the tables were turned when on track as it gives you a grin that would split your face in two.
So again to sum up think carefully about the realistic use of the car and then go from there
Edited by Se7enheaven on Friday 29th May 06:07
I've had a 100 hp VX on carbs and a 205 HP Rover Caterham on throttle bodies, and came from a 997 GT3
I loved the 205 car and have absolutely no idea why I sold it - I miss it madly!! I loved the character of the engine, the lunge when the throttle bodies chucked the fuel in from a trailing throttle, the slight lumpiness at tickover that smooths out beautifully by 3000 revs, the harsh race car like clutch and the mentality of the last few hundred revs when the scenery seemed to blur.
Overall it was the character of the engine not its power which was so intoxicating. I rarely used all the revs and guess I would have lost very little enjoyment if I had turned the revs down a bit and restricted it to about 180 hp.
By contrast I didn't like the flat gutless feel of the VX car, but I never got the carbs set up properly, which may be part if it.
Overall I think the type and tune of the engine is probably more important than the power
I loved the 205 car and have absolutely no idea why I sold it - I miss it madly!! I loved the character of the engine, the lunge when the throttle bodies chucked the fuel in from a trailing throttle, the slight lumpiness at tickover that smooths out beautifully by 3000 revs, the harsh race car like clutch and the mentality of the last few hundred revs when the scenery seemed to blur.
Overall it was the character of the engine not its power which was so intoxicating. I rarely used all the revs and guess I would have lost very little enjoyment if I had turned the revs down a bit and restricted it to about 180 hp.
By contrast I didn't like the flat gutless feel of the VX car, but I never got the carbs set up properly, which may be part if it.
Overall I think the type and tune of the engine is probably more important than the power
I built an R400 a few years ago that I rebuilt, when the engine expired, to R500 spec. I have used it almost exclusively on the track and it was truly fantastic for that. On the road though it's too much, if anything. I won't downsize but if I was buying again for mainly road use personally I wouldn't go any bigger than R300 spec.
I say this having had a 977 for 5 years and now driving a 599GTB for more day to day kicks.
I say this having had a 977 for 5 years and now driving a 599GTB for more day to day kicks.
Gassing Station | Caterham | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff