Courtesy or HC ignorance leading to confusion
Discussion
I throw a question out to the AD massive.
Recently I have noticed other drivers creating confusion, either in an attempt to be over-courteous to me, or other drivers, or just being ignorant of the Highway code. And I wondered what your take on the following examples are:
1. You are waiting to do a right turn on a single carriage way road (you exit is clear BTW). Several cars have passed by in the opposite direction (hence your wait) followed by a gap, too small to safely complete your turn, of two or three more cars. After these three you can see clear road behind them. The driver that is ahead of the three cars slows down, sometimes to a stop or crawl, and flashes you to complete your right turn.
Do you go? Or do you wait for the three cars to pass, as you can see completely clear road after them and can complete your turn then quite safely.
This motorist action is impeding the progress of the two drivers behind them and, nice as it may seem for them to offer you to continue on your journey, in in conflict with the Highway code. After all, how do I now that one of the drivers behind this slowing motorist wont get frustrated, perform an overtake and T bone you?
2. Similar scenario but this time you are at a roundabout junction, waiting to join it. The driver from the right slows down on the roundabout to let you join in front of them.
Your thoughts please.
Recently I have noticed other drivers creating confusion, either in an attempt to be over-courteous to me, or other drivers, or just being ignorant of the Highway code. And I wondered what your take on the following examples are:
1. You are waiting to do a right turn on a single carriage way road (you exit is clear BTW). Several cars have passed by in the opposite direction (hence your wait) followed by a gap, too small to safely complete your turn, of two or three more cars. After these three you can see clear road behind them. The driver that is ahead of the three cars slows down, sometimes to a stop or crawl, and flashes you to complete your right turn.
Do you go? Or do you wait for the three cars to pass, as you can see completely clear road after them and can complete your turn then quite safely.
This motorist action is impeding the progress of the two drivers behind them and, nice as it may seem for them to offer you to continue on your journey, in in conflict with the Highway code. After all, how do I now that one of the drivers behind this slowing motorist wont get frustrated, perform an overtake and T bone you?
2. Similar scenario but this time you are at a roundabout junction, waiting to join it. The driver from the right slows down on the roundabout to let you join in front of them.
Your thoughts please.
Misplaced courtesy.
My first piece of advice with these type of drivers is to be very careful when "accepting" this type of courtesy. I've heard numerous stories about cash-for-crash accidents arising from this type of driving. If you accept a courtesy under the circumstances you've described and the other car - loaded with four or five witnesses/"victims" then quickly accelerates in to you, who's to blame? And who has priority - even if another driver does appear to be letting you through?
For those drivers without criminal intent, who do offer misplaced courtesy, I tend to just act dumb and wait for them to get on with it.
Act dumb, wait, give them no signals and after a few seconds they usually take the hint and continue as they should. They'll think you're either ignorant or discourteous, but I don't care - I'd rather go when I have assessed it's safe rather than allow someone else to make that assessment for me.
My first piece of advice with these type of drivers is to be very careful when "accepting" this type of courtesy. I've heard numerous stories about cash-for-crash accidents arising from this type of driving. If you accept a courtesy under the circumstances you've described and the other car - loaded with four or five witnesses/"victims" then quickly accelerates in to you, who's to blame? And who has priority - even if another driver does appear to be letting you through?
For those drivers without criminal intent, who do offer misplaced courtesy, I tend to just act dumb and wait for them to get on with it.
Act dumb, wait, give them no signals and after a few seconds they usually take the hint and continue as they should. They'll think you're either ignorant or discourteous, but I don't care - I'd rather go when I have assessed it's safe rather than allow someone else to make that assessment for me.
R_U_LOCAL said:
Misplaced courtesy.
My first piece of advice with these type of drivers is to be very careful when "accepting" this type of courtesy. I've heard numerous stories about cash-for-crash accidents arising from this type of driving. If you accept a courtesy under the circumstances you've described and the other car - loaded with four or five witnesses/"victims" then quickly accelerates in to you, who's to blame? And who has priority - even if another driver does appear to be letting you through?
For those drivers without criminal intent, who do offer misplaced courtesy, I tend to just act dumb and wait for them to get on with it.
Act dumb, wait, give them no signals and after a few seconds they usually take the hint and continue as they should. They'll think you're either ignorant or discourteous, but I don't care - I'd rather go when I have assessed it's safe rather than allow someone else to make that assessment for me.
+1My first piece of advice with these type of drivers is to be very careful when "accepting" this type of courtesy. I've heard numerous stories about cash-for-crash accidents arising from this type of driving. If you accept a courtesy under the circumstances you've described and the other car - loaded with four or five witnesses/"victims" then quickly accelerates in to you, who's to blame? And who has priority - even if another driver does appear to be letting you through?
For those drivers without criminal intent, who do offer misplaced courtesy, I tend to just act dumb and wait for them to get on with it.
Act dumb, wait, give them no signals and after a few seconds they usually take the hint and continue as they should. They'll think you're either ignorant or discourteous, but I don't care - I'd rather go when I have assessed it's safe rather than allow someone else to make that assessment for me.
I am guilty of this offence! If I describe the scenario, will you tell me am I doing it wrong.
Every morning, I approach a traffic light-controlled cross-roads at which I will turn left.
My approach road is the main route; the crossing road is a secondary route. Traffic is heavy but my direction is generally flowing.
About 50% of the vehicles travelling in my direction will go left; the other 50% will go straight on. Very few will turn right. Of the vehicles travelling in the opposite direction to me, about 25% will turn (their) right into the same road that I turn into. Almost all the rest will come straight on, with very few turning (their) left.
Local knowledge tells me that this cross-roads is a bottle neck for traffic coming in the opposite direction, which gets "stuck" behind those waiting to turn right. The traffic stacks back and causes problems further up the road. Impatient drivers also mount the pavement in order to get past the right turners. The situation is not helped by all comers squeezing through on amber and the first seconds of red.
It is my practice as I approach the cross-roads to drop back from the car in front and then "flash" any on-coming right turner in order to ease the pressure, unless there is nobody or very few cars behind me. I always check for following cyclists or anyone looking to overtake me (not really possible) and I always try to engage eye contact with the on-coming right turner (sometimes he will be fiddling with his phone in which case he can go hang). If I am first car in line against a red light, I generally do the same: engage eye contact and flash the on-coming right turner before the lights turn green.
Is this wrong?
Every morning, I approach a traffic light-controlled cross-roads at which I will turn left.
My approach road is the main route; the crossing road is a secondary route. Traffic is heavy but my direction is generally flowing.
About 50% of the vehicles travelling in my direction will go left; the other 50% will go straight on. Very few will turn right. Of the vehicles travelling in the opposite direction to me, about 25% will turn (their) right into the same road that I turn into. Almost all the rest will come straight on, with very few turning (their) left.
Local knowledge tells me that this cross-roads is a bottle neck for traffic coming in the opposite direction, which gets "stuck" behind those waiting to turn right. The traffic stacks back and causes problems further up the road. Impatient drivers also mount the pavement in order to get past the right turners. The situation is not helped by all comers squeezing through on amber and the first seconds of red.
It is my practice as I approach the cross-roads to drop back from the car in front and then "flash" any on-coming right turner in order to ease the pressure, unless there is nobody or very few cars behind me. I always check for following cyclists or anyone looking to overtake me (not really possible) and I always try to engage eye contact with the on-coming right turner (sometimes he will be fiddling with his phone in which case he can go hang). If I am first car in line against a red light, I generally do the same: engage eye contact and flash the on-coming right turner before the lights turn green.
Is this wrong?
I leave others to say why it might be wrong, even if courteous. But I will mention that when I go out in the morning I have to join a major road from a minor road, and often I am only able to do so when a driver on the major road does me the favor of letting me out. Often this is accompanied by a flash. If I did not take advantage I would not get out. For me, I need their speed and distance to confirm they are inviting me out, and the flash is unnecessary if they slow enough, far enough back from the junction.
I think my bottom line is being in total control of the situation, in your first scenario it is amazing how often there is nothing behind the car offering to let you turn, this just highlights how little attention they are paying.
The HC means everyone has one set of rules, it is not only there for when it is convenient.
as to the other posters traffic lights, perhaps a call to the local authority to change the phasing of the lights.
The HC means everyone has one set of rules, it is not only there for when it is convenient.
as to the other posters traffic lights, perhaps a call to the local authority to change the phasing of the lights.
BertBert said:
So is there a place to be courteous and let people out? It would be pretty horrible driving round suburbs of London and leafy Surrey without other people letting you in.
I spend a lot of time in my driving trying to get the best out of it for others as well as me. Is that wrong?
Bert
I live in that area and you are right about traffic density but "letting in" suggests joining your flow from a side street, in that case if its stop-start that just comes down to social courtesy without the need for flashing unless the emergee is a completely distracted 'tard in which case I'd rather have them in front of me than behind so if it needs a flash or horn to get their attention I would. If its someone turning right across your flow, you should be able to regulate your speed to create a gap if you can ensure you've not got two-wheelers inside or outside you. In all cases its about awareness of more than just the simple 'let go'. I spend a lot of time in my driving trying to get the best out of it for others as well as me. Is that wrong?
Bert
If anyone believes that more than 5% of the driving population (including those on foreign driving licences) have read the HC in the last 5 years they're being more than a bit naive. The HC isn't a rule book per se so that makes things even more confusing. It is really only held up by the insurance fraternity to apply liability, the vast majority of drivers in the UK don't even absorb it when they're learning let alone reacquaint themselves with it regularly.
Like most things in life its best to have your own moral code that sits alongside law. I'm not ashamed to "break the law" if it is safe to do so (IMO) if it helps another (pedestrian, biker or driver) because I'd rather believe there are fewer accident stagers on the road than people in need of a bit of common courtesy.
Edited by Speed 3 on Thursday 10th December 09:53
r129sl said:
Is this wrong?
No, the way you sound to be doing it is pretty good. The issue here is when people brake to a halt on a main road when they have priority, causing the people behind to have to stop as well. Very daft, possibly leading to accidents if those behind are not paying full attention.
If all you're doing is accelerating a bit gently to make a gap to the car in front then that's fine. I'd argue that it would be best to make it sufficiently obvious by your road position (by leaving a big enough gap) that a flash is unnecessary for the turning driver to get the idea, but that would be tricky in a rush hour.
Most "flash" you without looking in their mirrors to see if it is prudent to allow you across them....and how often does some one flash you out when there is nothing behind them....t
ts....their journey time has increased, they have used more fuel, and look stupid in my opinion.
they should just get on with it....as already stated above.
Never flash people out, leave a gap yes....but let them make their mind up, don't do it for them....one day they will get it wrong and a motorcyclist/cyclist could be hurt as a result.
ts....their journey time has increased, they have used more fuel, and look stupid in my opinion.they should just get on with it....as already stated above.
Never flash people out, leave a gap yes....but let them make their mind up, don't do it for them....one day they will get it wrong and a motorcyclist/cyclist could be hurt as a result.
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