F31 - X Drive or not?
Discussion
I am in the market for an F31 320d M sport with a budget of up to about 26K. Plenty of cars to choose from but I am a little torn between 2 and 4wd drive versions. There only seems to be about 1k of difference between similar s drive and x drive cars. I live in the Scottish Borders where we get a fair bit of snow in winter which would seem to favour the Xdrive, but then I have read reports that the x drive is a bit soft and wallowy and really needs the Schnitzer springs to make it look and drive as it should, and I am also thinking that the 2wd drive car on winter tyres would probably be just as if not more capable than the 4wd car on normal tyres in snow, and the 2wd drive car would probably handle better in normal conditions. So tending towards the 2wd drive car with a bit of budget set aside for a set of winter wheels and tyres.
Any PHers with experience of the 2wd or 4wd F30/F31 care to comment?
Thanks,
Mark
Any PHers with experience of the 2wd or 4wd F30/F31 care to comment?
Thanks,
Mark
I can categorically tell you now that an F30 335xd with runflats is far better in the countryside snow than an E39 with a full set of winter tyres is.
Winter tyres are good, without them my E39 wouldn't even get out of my road in my area, but the minute you have enough loose snow to coat the rear tyres you're sunk. Snow tyres are good on fairly compact snow or ice, but not the fluffy stuff.
The four wheel drive (although automatic doesn't do it any favours, and neither does the traction control) will pretty much pull itself along even through quite deep snow.
The xdrive with snow tyres I suspect would be beaten only by a land rover or tractor!
Winter tyres are good, without them my E39 wouldn't even get out of my road in my area, but the minute you have enough loose snow to coat the rear tyres you're sunk. Snow tyres are good on fairly compact snow or ice, but not the fluffy stuff.
The four wheel drive (although automatic doesn't do it any favours, and neither does the traction control) will pretty much pull itself along even through quite deep snow.
The xdrive with snow tyres I suspect would be beaten only by a land rover or tractor!
julian64 said:
The four wheel drive (although automatic doesn't do it any favours, and neither does the traction control) will pretty much pull itself along even through quite deep snow.
No it wouldn't. Summer tyres are carp on snow. I had a 4x4 and my rear wheel drive Lexus was better with winter tyres in snow, slush, ice, wet and general cold winter conditions than my 4x4 with summer tyres. The 4x4 would tramline, lock up under breaking and try to find traction whereas the winter tyres were superb everywhere, no compromise.
My advice, buy the better rear wheel drive car and buy a set of winter wheels and tyres, or just swap the tyres OR just use winter tyres all year, especially in 'wet' Scotland.
But what do I know, i'm only speaking from experience.
knitware said:
julian64 said:
The four wheel drive (although automatic doesn't do it any favours, and neither does the traction control) will pretty much pull itself along even through quite deep snow.
No it wouldn't. Summer tyres are carp on snow. I had a 4x4 and my rear wheel drive Lexus was better with winter tyres in snow, slush, ice, wet and general cold winter conditions than my 4x4 with summer tyres. The 4x4 would tramline, lock up under breaking and try to find traction whereas the winter tyres were superb everywhere, no compromise.
My advice, buy the better rear wheel drive car and buy a set of winter wheels and tyres, or just swap the tyres OR just use winter tyres all year, especially in 'wet' Scotland.
But what do I know, i'm only speaking from experience.
The summers with Quattro won't stop or steer anything like the FWD or RWD on winters.
However a Quattro with winters is spot on, until the snow is too deep that you can't plough through it
Drive both and buy the car you prefer in normal conditions. I'd always buy winters in Scotland whatever the drivetrain if you're going to go out in the snow. Where the xdrive will help though is all the crappy wet days where it doesn't snow. No more worrying about wheel spin exiting junctions and the like!
Xdrive still feels like a rear driver but you're never going to have the same kind of fun as in the sdrive with the 320d engine, just doesn't have the power to overcome the traction.
Also, bear in mind that the xdrive has a bigger impact on fuel economy than the official figures would suggest... More like up to 5mpg difference if you read threads on the BMW forums.
Xdrive still feels like a rear driver but you're never going to have the same kind of fun as in the sdrive with the 320d engine, just doesn't have the power to overcome the traction.
Also, bear in mind that the xdrive has a bigger impact on fuel economy than the official figures would suggest... More like up to 5mpg difference if you read threads on the BMW forums.
I had a new 320 xd for about a year and 15k miles:
- On the handful of winter days when it was icy/snowy it wasn't substantially better on roundabouts than any other car I've had
- I averaged 45mpg over the period, 60% motorway miles but I wasn't paying for the fuel so I caned it everywhere.
- Would choose xdrive over rwd every time in the future. Not sure why but liked the idea of it and did plenty of country lanes with no dramas.
Snow always needs winter tyres, the rest is up to you.
- On the handful of winter days when it was icy/snowy it wasn't substantially better on roundabouts than any other car I've had
- I averaged 45mpg over the period, 60% motorway miles but I wasn't paying for the fuel so I caned it everywhere.
- Would choose xdrive over rwd every time in the future. Not sure why but liked the idea of it and did plenty of country lanes with no dramas.
Snow always needs winter tyres, the rest is up to you.
knitware said:
No it wouldn't.
Summer tyres are carp on snow. I had a 4x4 and my rear wheel drive Lexus was better with winter tyres in snow, slush, ice, wet and general cold winter conditions than my 4x4 with summer tyres. The 4x4 would tramline, lock up under breaking and try to find traction whereas the winter tyres were superb everywhere, no compromise.
My advice, buy the better rear wheel drive car and buy a set of winter wheels and tyres, or just swap the tyres OR just use winter tyres all year, especially in 'wet' Scotland.
But what do I know, i'm only speaking from experience.
I assume everyone was speaking from experience when posting. Summer tyres are carp on snow. I had a 4x4 and my rear wheel drive Lexus was better with winter tyres in snow, slush, ice, wet and general cold winter conditions than my 4x4 with summer tyres. The 4x4 would tramline, lock up under breaking and try to find traction whereas the winter tyres were superb everywhere, no compromise.
My advice, buy the better rear wheel drive car and buy a set of winter wheels and tyres, or just swap the tyres OR just use winter tyres all year, especially in 'wet' Scotland.
But what do I know, i'm only speaking from experience.
I switched to driving AWD cars about ten years ago, on the basis of their 'neutral' handling. I've had performance FWD, RWD and AWD cars and I dislike both oversteer and understeer. I know, modern RWD cars have electronics that control oversteer, but I now have a 330d xDrive Touring and the handling is just what I want.
However, for some people, AWD feels too detached/predicatable/boring.
All this is nothing to do with winter driving (I've also benefited from xDrive in snow, running winter tyres, but that's just icing on the cake). You do get a lot of 'My RWD with winters is much better than an xDrive with summers' and 'Just put winters on your RWD and you'll be fine'. Of course, the best winter platform is xDrive plus winter tyres. But you have to make a judgement as to whether xDrive is worth any extra and as importantly, may have characteristics that you won't like as a driver.
xDrive suspension height is usually higher than for the various sport equivalents. So there is often some confusion when people make the comparison, as they're getting a higher ride height as well as different dynamics. Which they may not like. Personally, I think that ride heights (along with tyre profiles) have got stupidly low in recent years, as far as typical public roads are concerned. But again, you may like the increased agility of low-profile tyres and a lowered ride height.
As mentioned, give it a go in a RWD and xDrive if you can, and see what you think.
However, for some people, AWD feels too detached/predicatable/boring.
All this is nothing to do with winter driving (I've also benefited from xDrive in snow, running winter tyres, but that's just icing on the cake). You do get a lot of 'My RWD with winters is much better than an xDrive with summers' and 'Just put winters on your RWD and you'll be fine'. Of course, the best winter platform is xDrive plus winter tyres. But you have to make a judgement as to whether xDrive is worth any extra and as importantly, may have characteristics that you won't like as a driver.
xDrive suspension height is usually higher than for the various sport equivalents. So there is often some confusion when people make the comparison, as they're getting a higher ride height as well as different dynamics. Which they may not like. Personally, I think that ride heights (along with tyre profiles) have got stupidly low in recent years, as far as typical public roads are concerned. But again, you may like the increased agility of low-profile tyres and a lowered ride height.
As mentioned, give it a go in a RWD and xDrive if you can, and see what you think.
Edited by msej449 on Monday 29th June 14:35
smashy said:
scuse me hijacking seeing your around Knitware did you see elsewhere rolling road on your 330d PPK gave 299BHP luverlee!!!
299 bhp is just silly for a family estate! Unbelievable isn't it and comparing the (post PPK) 330d and 335d there really isn't much between the bhp and torque figures (at the wheels) for each due to the xDrive sucking up power.For those who havent a clue what this is about see here:
http://f30.bimmerpost.com/forums/showthread.php?t=...
F30/F31 330d and 335d
I think I wrote a while ago that the BMW PPK (power performance kit) was a performance bargain.
Just to be back on topic.
I had a 320d xDrive on loan for a while and I thought it was great, nice and sure footed and a really lovely engine, it must be the best 2 litre being manufactured today.
Op, could you stretch to a 330d?
msej449 said:
I switched to driving AWD cars about ten years ago, on the basis of their 'neutral' handling. I've had performance FWD, RWD and AWD cars and I dislike both oversteer and understeer. I know, modern RWD cars have electronics that control oversteer, but I now have a 330d xDrive Touring and the handling is just what I want.
However, for some people, AWD feels too detached/predicatable/boring.
All this is nothing to do with winter driving (I've also benefited from xDrive in snow, running winter tyres, but that's just icing on the cake). You do get a lot of 'My RWD with winters is much better than an xDrive with summers' and 'Just put winters on your RWD and you'll be fine'. Of course, the best winter platform is xDrive plus winter tyres. But you have to make a judgement as to whether xDrive is worth any extra and as importantly, may have characteristics that you won't like as a driver.
xDrive suspension height is usually higher than for the various sport equivalents. So there is often some confusion when people make the comparison, as they're getting a higher ride height as well as different dynamics. Which they may not like. Personally, I think that ride heights (along with tyre profiles) have got stupidly low in recent years, as far as typical public roads are concerned. But again, you may like the increased agility of low-profile tyres and a lowered ride height.
As mentioned, give it a go in a RWD and xDrive if you can, and see what you think.
+1 However, for some people, AWD feels too detached/predicatable/boring.
All this is nothing to do with winter driving (I've also benefited from xDrive in snow, running winter tyres, but that's just icing on the cake). You do get a lot of 'My RWD with winters is much better than an xDrive with summers' and 'Just put winters on your RWD and you'll be fine'. Of course, the best winter platform is xDrive plus winter tyres. But you have to make a judgement as to whether xDrive is worth any extra and as importantly, may have characteristics that you won't like as a driver.
xDrive suspension height is usually higher than for the various sport equivalents. So there is often some confusion when people make the comparison, as they're getting a higher ride height as well as different dynamics. Which they may not like. Personally, I think that ride heights (along with tyre profiles) have got stupidly low in recent years, as far as typical public roads are concerned. But again, you may like the increased agility of low-profile tyres and a lowered ride height.
As mentioned, give it a go in a RWD and xDrive if you can, and see what you think.
Edited by msej449 on Monday 29th June 14:35
A very sensible and balanced post IMO!
My F31 335d is my first experience with AWD ownership and being honest I'm not blown away and thinking I'd never go back to RWD. Yes it's nice to be able to pull out from junctions in the wet without worrying about losing traction but how often did I feel I didn't have enough grip in my old E92 335i or E46 M3 CS? Not very TBH.
With the 335d I obviously didn't have the option of RWD or AWD but with other models (such as the 330d) you get the choice and where that's the case I'd echo the sentiment that says drive both and choose the one you prefer. I honestly don't think there's a right or wrong answer, it really depends on how and where you drive.
JNW1 said:
msej449 said:
I switched to driving AWD cars about ten years ago, on the basis of their 'neutral' handling. I've had performance FWD, RWD and AWD cars and I dislike both oversteer and understeer. I know, modern RWD cars have electronics that control oversteer, but I now have a 330d xDrive Touring and the handling is just what I want.
However, for some people, AWD feels too detached/predicatable/boring.
All this is nothing to do with winter driving (I've also benefited from xDrive in snow, running winter tyres, but that's just icing on the cake). You do get a lot of 'My RWD with winters is much better than an xDrive with summers' and 'Just put winters on your RWD and you'll be fine'. Of course, the best winter platform is xDrive plus winter tyres. But you have to make a judgement as to whether xDrive is worth any extra and as importantly, may have characteristics that you won't like as a driver.
xDrive suspension height is usually higher than for the various sport equivalents. So there is often some confusion when people make the comparison, as they're getting a higher ride height as well as different dynamics. Which they may not like. Personally, I think that ride heights (along with tyre profiles) have got stupidly low in recent years, as far as typical public roads are concerned. But again, you may like the increased agility of low-profile tyres and a lowered ride height.
As mentioned, give it a go in a RWD and xDrive if you can, and see what you think.
+1 However, for some people, AWD feels too detached/predicatable/boring.
All this is nothing to do with winter driving (I've also benefited from xDrive in snow, running winter tyres, but that's just icing on the cake). You do get a lot of 'My RWD with winters is much better than an xDrive with summers' and 'Just put winters on your RWD and you'll be fine'. Of course, the best winter platform is xDrive plus winter tyres. But you have to make a judgement as to whether xDrive is worth any extra and as importantly, may have characteristics that you won't like as a driver.
xDrive suspension height is usually higher than for the various sport equivalents. So there is often some confusion when people make the comparison, as they're getting a higher ride height as well as different dynamics. Which they may not like. Personally, I think that ride heights (along with tyre profiles) have got stupidly low in recent years, as far as typical public roads are concerned. But again, you may like the increased agility of low-profile tyres and a lowered ride height.
As mentioned, give it a go in a RWD and xDrive if you can, and see what you think.
Edited by msej449 on Monday 29th June 14:35
A very sensible and balanced post IMO!
My F31 335d is my first experience with AWD ownership and being honest I'm not blown away and thinking I'd never go back to RWD. Yes it's nice to be able to pull out from junctions in the wet without worrying about losing traction but how often did I feel I didn't have enough grip in my old E92 335i or E46 M3 CS? Not very TBH.
With the 335d I obviously didn't have the option of RWD or AWD but with other models (such as the 330d) you get the choice and where that's the case I'd echo the sentiment that says drive both and choose the one you prefer. I honestly don't think there's a right or wrong answer, it really depends on how and where you drive.
So we're left wondering whether he drives performance cars but never pushes them round a corner (he's american perhaps?), or believes that AWD means the car at the limit won't understeer or oversteer?
julian64 said:
JNW1 said:
msej449 said:
I switched to driving AWD cars about ten years ago, on the basis of their 'neutral' handling. I've had performance FWD, RWD and AWD cars and I dislike both oversteer and understeer. I know, modern RWD cars have electronics that control oversteer, but I now have a 330d xDrive Touring and the handling is just what I want.
However, for some people, AWD feels too detached/predicatable/boring.
All this is nothing to do with winter driving (I've also benefited from xDrive in snow, running winter tyres, but that's just icing on the cake). You do get a lot of 'My RWD with winters is much better than an xDrive with summers' and 'Just put winters on your RWD and you'll be fine'. Of course, the best winter platform is xDrive plus winter tyres. But you have to make a judgement as to whether xDrive is worth any extra and as importantly, may have characteristics that you won't like as a driver.
xDrive suspension height is usually higher than for the various sport equivalents. So there is often some confusion when people make the comparison, as they're getting a higher ride height as well as different dynamics. Which they may not like. Personally, I think that ride heights (along with tyre profiles) have got stupidly low in recent years, as far as typical public roads are concerned. But again, you may like the increased agility of low-profile tyres and a lowered ride height.
As mentioned, give it a go in a RWD and xDrive if you can, and see what you think.
+1 However, for some people, AWD feels too detached/predicatable/boring.
All this is nothing to do with winter driving (I've also benefited from xDrive in snow, running winter tyres, but that's just icing on the cake). You do get a lot of 'My RWD with winters is much better than an xDrive with summers' and 'Just put winters on your RWD and you'll be fine'. Of course, the best winter platform is xDrive plus winter tyres. But you have to make a judgement as to whether xDrive is worth any extra and as importantly, may have characteristics that you won't like as a driver.
xDrive suspension height is usually higher than for the various sport equivalents. So there is often some confusion when people make the comparison, as they're getting a higher ride height as well as different dynamics. Which they may not like. Personally, I think that ride heights (along with tyre profiles) have got stupidly low in recent years, as far as typical public roads are concerned. But again, you may like the increased agility of low-profile tyres and a lowered ride height.
As mentioned, give it a go in a RWD and xDrive if you can, and see what you think.
Edited by msej449 on Monday 29th June 14:35
A very sensible and balanced post IMO!
My F31 335d is my first experience with AWD ownership and being honest I'm not blown away and thinking I'd never go back to RWD. Yes it's nice to be able to pull out from junctions in the wet without worrying about losing traction but how often did I feel I didn't have enough grip in my old E92 335i or E46 M3 CS? Not very TBH.
With the 335d I obviously didn't have the option of RWD or AWD but with other models (such as the 330d) you get the choice and where that's the case I'd echo the sentiment that says drive both and choose the one you prefer. I honestly don't think there's a right or wrong answer, it really depends on how and where you drive.
So we're left wondering whether he drives performance cars but never pushes them round a corner (he's american perhaps?), or believes that AWD means the car at the limit won't understeer or oversteer?
JNW1 said:
Msej449 will no doubt respond for himself but I still think he made sensible comments around the pros and cons of AWD. You've obviously chosen to focus on his comments on understeer and oversteer but I read that as meaning he disliked cars that are biased more towards one or the other in normal driving; clearly all cars will either understeer or oversteer eventually but I suspect few owners experiment regularly with behaviour at the limit on the public road (unless it's pushing the tail out at relatively low speeds on a wet roundabout which doesn't really count!).
comments were tongue in cheek, and I don't expect Msej449 really needs to defend himself against anything
My previous road cars included the Millennium VVC Lotus Elise (so that's oversteer with a vengeance) and Porche Carrera S4. I did driver training at both Lotus and various racing circuits, including Formula Ford etc. On circuits like Hethel, spinning-off when you get it wrong is no problem and what you learn gets built into your ordinary road driving. Handling oversteer on track training helped me recover from otherwise fatal driving errors on public roads on a couple of occasions. FWD I've had an RS2000 (madness) Saab 911 Turbo (also madness) and as a daily car the over-powered 170BHP A3 FWD which always liked to exit roundabouts somewhat ahead of the actual road itself :-)
{Any car given enough beans round a corner will do one of those things.}
No - in an AWD car you get a 4-wheel-drift, where the whole car moves outwards at right angles to the direction of travel: it is a fairly graceful event and powering-off is all that's needed to recover, rather than a careful combination of steering and throttle adjustment needed to bring the front/back into line.
An AWD 'at the limit' won't understeer or oversteer - it does a 4-wheel-drift (The overall weight distribution does have to be balanced evenly between front and back, however - not all AWD cars are).
Modern cars electronically cosset the driver to such an extent that you never really see the chassis and drivetrain dynamics fully unleashed anyway. And you probably don't want to, as they are relatively heavy: I'm fairly sure that my first 320i Touring in 1990 weighed about half a tonne less than my current 330d - No amount of engineering can compensate for that middle-age-spread (but don't get me wrong - I wouldn't want to go back to the 1990 model). What you do get on a modern RWD car are electronics which substantially obviate the downsides of RWD. Somehow FWD cars don't seem to have advanced to the same degree in this respect i.e. I'd always go for a modern RWD car rather than a FWD.
With the 330d the fairly hefty engine power meant that I opted for xDrive. But with your 320d there's less of a problem putting its power down to two rather than four wheels, and the difference in handling may either not be noticeable or unwelcome. So give both a try and see.
{Any car given enough beans round a corner will do one of those things.}
No - in an AWD car you get a 4-wheel-drift, where the whole car moves outwards at right angles to the direction of travel: it is a fairly graceful event and powering-off is all that's needed to recover, rather than a careful combination of steering and throttle adjustment needed to bring the front/back into line.
An AWD 'at the limit' won't understeer or oversteer - it does a 4-wheel-drift (The overall weight distribution does have to be balanced evenly between front and back, however - not all AWD cars are).
Modern cars electronically cosset the driver to such an extent that you never really see the chassis and drivetrain dynamics fully unleashed anyway. And you probably don't want to, as they are relatively heavy: I'm fairly sure that my first 320i Touring in 1990 weighed about half a tonne less than my current 330d - No amount of engineering can compensate for that middle-age-spread (but don't get me wrong - I wouldn't want to go back to the 1990 model). What you do get on a modern RWD car are electronics which substantially obviate the downsides of RWD. Somehow FWD cars don't seem to have advanced to the same degree in this respect i.e. I'd always go for a modern RWD car rather than a FWD.
With the 330d the fairly hefty engine power meant that I opted for xDrive. But with your 320d there's less of a problem putting its power down to two rather than four wheels, and the difference in handling may either not be noticeable or unwelcome. So give both a try and see.
Edited by msej449 on Thursday 2nd July 11:23
I've not had any traction issues in my RWD 535d and I don't hang around though I don't Wide open throttle it to get it off the line either.
AWD it felt unusual in the Quattro kind of pushing and pulling it was fun utterly launching the car from standstill and cornering at silly pace but it's weight and uses power when if its that icy or snow working from home is the smartest option.
AWD it felt unusual in the Quattro kind of pushing and pulling it was fun utterly launching the car from standstill and cornering at silly pace but it's weight and uses power when if its that icy or snow working from home is the smartest option.
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