Is the USA in decline? A land of materialists and fakes?
Discussion
Kermit power said:
My problem is that the American psyche is a national one as well as an individual one.
Have you ever watched the news on an American network? I once watched a broadcast which finished the domestic news and then went "and now for international news... The US ambassador in Rome...."
I disagree with a lot of what you say, but this I agree with completely. It s my biggest annoyance with America. The wilful isolation from the rest of the world. Have you ever watched the news on an American network? I once watched a broadcast which finished the domestic news and then went "and now for international news... The US ambassador in Rome...."
I spent 2 years in the states and, upon returning home, had missed a vast amount of new/information.
It's not just the lack of coverage of global matters on TV. It's in the everyday conversation, non of which ever revolves around anything that is not America.
I suppose it's the side effect of being such a large country. One imagines China is probably similar.
Kermit power said:
Possibly so, but five million of those are actually NRA members, and I'd assume there are plenty more nutters who aren't signed up members...
I'd say that all the nutters are NRA members (except the ones living off grid in the woods) but that not all NRA members are nutters (a friend of mine is an ex-world champion clay shooter, NRA member and otherwise normal English gent.) Speculation aside 5m is less than 1.5% of the population and about as representative of the USA as the Green Party (1.8% of the population voted for them) is of the UK.skyrover said:
...I suppose it's the side effect of being such a large country. One imagines China is probably similar.
That would be my opinion, too. I wonder what news they cover in Russia?The scale of the USA is brilliant/frightening on so many levels - economic, military, technology, medical research, and then there's the geography, the 300million people, etc etc
They routinely go through periods of isolationism, then they get engaged again until the next cock up, then retreat within their borders once more. Damned if they do, damned if they don't.
GreenFrogPower has been vociferous in his anti-gun standpoint but unless he's been a victim I struggle to understand the (continued) vehemance.
Kermit power said:
Their insularity and their disconnect with the feelings and opinions of others would be fine if they actually kept themselves to themselves, but they don't. They exercise their economic, diplomatic (arguably an oxymoron) and military might on a whim to try and force others to their way of thinking, and they've caused hundreds of thousands of deaths and left the world a much worse place along the way.
Claptrap.They never made a serious attempt to build an empire. They didn't join WW1 until it had been going nearly three years. They didn't join WW2 until it had been going for over 2 years and only then because Japan attacked Pearl Harbour and Germany declared war on the US. Hardly on a whim.
GW1 was an international coalition. Saddam could have been overthrown then but it was the Americans that decided enough was enough and stopped the advance on Baghdad.
The US reaction to 9/11 was far more restrained than anyone expected and was aimed at weakening Al Qaeda not at 'forcing others to their way of thinking'.
What is the US 'way of thinking' anyway? When have they ever tried to force it on anyone?. As for causing hundreds of thousands of deaths and making the world a worse place, how? where? when?
Dr Jekyll said:
Claptrap.
They never made a serious attempt to build an empire. They didn't join WW1 until it had been going nearly three years. They didn't join WW2 until it had been going for over 2 years and only then because Japan attacked Pearl Harbour and Germany declared war on the US. Hardly on a whim.
GW1 was an international coalition. Saddam could have been overthrown then but it was the Americans that decided enough was enough and stopped the advance on Baghdad.
The US reaction to 9/11 was far more restrained than anyone expected and was aimed at weakening Al Qaeda not at 'forcing others to their way of thinking'.
What is the US 'way of thinking' anyway? When have they ever tried to force it on anyone?. As for causing hundreds of thousands of deaths and making the world a worse place, how? where? when?
How about overthrowing democracy in Iran in 1953 to install the Shah? The monumental fThey never made a serious attempt to build an empire. They didn't join WW1 until it had been going nearly three years. They didn't join WW2 until it had been going for over 2 years and only then because Japan attacked Pearl Harbour and Germany declared war on the US. Hardly on a whim.
GW1 was an international coalition. Saddam could have been overthrown then but it was the Americans that decided enough was enough and stopped the advance on Baghdad.
The US reaction to 9/11 was far more restrained than anyone expected and was aimed at weakening Al Qaeda not at 'forcing others to their way of thinking'.
What is the US 'way of thinking' anyway? When have they ever tried to force it on anyone?. As for causing hundreds of thousands of deaths and making the world a worse place, how? where? when?
k up that was the Vietnam war? Bay of Pigs? The Nicaraguan Contra scandal? The invasion of Grenada? I'm sure there's more if you want to go looking for them.They've not gone looking to build an empire in the traditional sense of occupying land, but they've certainly never been shy about the use of their military, money and the CIA to manipulate countries into their way of the world.
Kermit power said:
How about overthrowing democracy in Iran in 1953 to install the Shah? The monumental fk up that was the Vietnam war? Bay of Pigs? The Nicaraguan Contra scandal? The invasion of Grenada? I'm sure there's more if you want to go looking for them.
They've not gone looking to build an empire in the traditional sense of occupying land, but they've certainly never been shy about the use of their military, money and the CIA to manipulate countries into their way of the world.
Iran in 1953 and Vietnam were responses to perceived threats, as was Nicaragua. The Soviets were involved in Nicaragua as well remember. Bay of Pigs was a half hearted attempt to support Cuban rebels, they could have invaded easily if they wanted to. Grenada was a response to a request from other Caribbean countries. k up that was the Vietnam war? Bay of Pigs? The Nicaraguan Contra scandal? The invasion of Grenada? I'm sure there's more if you want to go looking for them.They've not gone looking to build an empire in the traditional sense of occupying land, but they've certainly never been shy about the use of their military, money and the CIA to manipulate countries into their way of the world.
None were an attempt to manipulate anyone into their 'way of the world'. Whatever that is.
Dr Jekyll said:
Kermit power said:
How about overthrowing democracy in Iran in 1953 to install the Shah? The monumental fk up that was the Vietnam war? Bay of Pigs? The Nicaraguan Contra scandal? The invasion of Grenada? I'm sure there's more if you want to go looking for them.
They've not gone looking to build an empire in the traditional sense of occupying land, but they've certainly never been shy about the use of their military, money and the CIA to manipulate countries into their way of the world.
Iran in 1953 and Vietnam were responses to perceived threats, as was Nicaragua. The Soviets were involved in Nicaragua as well remember. Bay of Pigs was a half hearted attempt to support Cuban rebels, they could have invaded easily if they wanted to. Grenada was a response to a request from other Caribbean countries. k up that was the Vietnam war? Bay of Pigs? The Nicaraguan Contra scandal? The invasion of Grenada? I'm sure there's more if you want to go looking for them.They've not gone looking to build an empire in the traditional sense of occupying land, but they've certainly never been shy about the use of their military, money and the CIA to manipulate countries into their way of the world.
None were an attempt to manipulate anyone into their 'way of the world'. Whatever that is.
The USA is imperialistic. Look at the number of countries they control outside of the states.
Regardless of why they went into various countries, they went there. Grenada was outrageous and the apology was sincerely meant. No, honest.
I'm not knocking the USA: had they not used intelligent strategy post WWII, we'd have had WWIII long ago. It cost them. Whilst cutting off the money supply to the UK immediately after the war, rendering us bankrupt, was a deliberate act, they did extend a loan which enabled me to enjoy the 60s.
And what about Lend-Lease, eh? Didn't that work out well.
At the time of the Falklands war an American friend of mine, graduate and working in a uni, mentioned anti imperialistic feeling rhetoric in the common room and asked me for a precis of the history from a UK point of view. I sent her a list of all the islands that the USA occupies. She said that the list came as a surprise to her but said that it went down about as well as could be expected when she mentioned it at the next chat. If I'd had Wiki in those days, I'd have come up with a lot more no doubt.
Let's not knock the USA but let's not beatify it either. Ying and yanks.
some people would do well to read up on
History of the Philippines
Overthrow of the Kingdom of Hawaii
History of Cuba
the united states did indeed have an overseas empire like any nation wanting a place on the world stage in the early 1900,s.
the Spanish vs united states war makes interesting reading
History of the Philippines
Overthrow of the Kingdom of Hawaii
History of Cuba
the united states did indeed have an overseas empire like any nation wanting a place on the world stage in the early 1900,s.
the Spanish vs united states war makes interesting reading
Derek Smith said:
Ying and yanks.
Would you prefer Ying and Yang then? As that's the alternative. Be thankful for the control the U.S. has over the world and that we're on their side.The U.S. is f
ked up with guns, it's healthcare system, racism and a lack of awareness of the rest of the world. But the UK is an over priced, over taxed political Minnow, stifled with political correctness, socialism, porous borders and a culture of envy.Pick your poison and accept that the U.S., it's people and culture will always be very different to Britain's....for better or worse.
You guys have made this a gun and international foreign policy debate... Fair enough. But it's NOT what I was getting at.
I'm talking about the people.
The day-to-day interactions of the American people with me, with each other.
I'm talking about, image, fakeness, the value put on charisma, charm and MONEY... and whether they've utterly begun to buy into this shiny teeth BS culture more than
a) us Brits
b) more than themselves a few years ago.
Of course this is generalising.
Of course this is unfair.
Of course this is wrong.
But there's no smoke without fire no?
I'm talking about the people.
The day-to-day interactions of the American people with me, with each other.
I'm talking about, image, fakeness, the value put on charisma, charm and MONEY... and whether they've utterly begun to buy into this shiny teeth BS culture more than
a) us Brits
b) more than themselves a few years ago.
Of course this is generalising.
Of course this is unfair.
Of course this is wrong.
But there's no smoke without fire no?
dvs_dave said:
The U.S. is fked up with guns, it's healthcare system, racism and a lack of awareness of the rest of the world. But the UK is an over priced, over taxed political Minnow, stifled with political correctness, socialism, porous borders and a culture of envy.
Agree mostly with that .. but I'd say that the UK also has problems with its healthcare system, racism (it's just hidden under layers of PC'ness) and to a lesser extent, a lack of awareness of the rest of the world! Okay, let's just call it a draw?ked up with guns, it's healthcare system, racism and a lack of awareness of the rest of the world. But the UK is an over priced, over taxed political Minnow, stifled with political correctness, socialism, porous borders and a culture of envy.Edited by fido on Friday 3rd July 18:13
Murcielago_Boy said:
I'm talking about the people.
The day-to-day interactions of the American people with me, with each other.
I'm talking about, image, fakeness, the value put on charisma, charm and MONEY... and whether they've utterly begun to buy into this shiny teeth BS culture more than
a) us Brits
b) more than themselves a few years ago.
unrepentant said:
You sure it's not you?
Although that post above is designed to provoke/offend, i'll let that go and be the bigger person...In answer to your question, they say "like attracts like" - so maybe you're right....
Hence my comments about Socal and south Florida (which other posters have backed up).
Charlotte, NC, here I come...
citizensm1th said:
some people would do well to read up on
History of the Philippines
Overthrow of the Kingdom of Hawaii
History of Cuba
the united states did indeed have an overseas empire like any nation wanting a place on the world stage in the early 1900,s.
the Spanish vs united states war makes interesting reading
Well yeah, is anyone saying the USA didn't create an empire?History of the Philippines
Overthrow of the Kingdom of Hawaii
History of Cuba
the united states did indeed have an overseas empire like any nation wanting a place on the world stage in the early 1900,s.
the Spanish vs united states war makes interesting reading
The USA used the whole American continent as their personal playtoy, destroying democracy where it reared it's head to support dictators that would hand over the country's goodies for peanuts. That's what imperial nations do.
The USA went to war sometimes for private companies, just as the old European powers did. The film, The Corporation and the life and times of General Smedley Butler makes for interesting viewing and reading.
"In 1935, Butler wrote a book entitled War Is a Racket, where he described and criticized the workings of the United States in its foreign actions and wars, such as those he was a part of, including the American corporations and other imperialist motivations behind them. After retiring from service, he became a popular activist, speaking at meetings organized by veterans, pacifists, and church groups in the 1930s."
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/War_Is_a_Racket
Halb said:
citizensm1th said:
some people would do well to read up on
History of the Philippines
Overthrow of the Kingdom of Hawaii
History of Cuba
the united states did indeed have an overseas empire like any nation wanting a place on the world stage in the early 1900,s.
the Spanish vs united states war makes interesting reading
Well yeah, is anyone saying the USA didn't create an empire?History of the Philippines
Overthrow of the Kingdom of Hawaii
History of Cuba
the united states did indeed have an overseas empire like any nation wanting a place on the world stage in the early 1900,s.
the Spanish vs united states war makes interesting reading
The USA used the whole American continent as their personal playtoy, destroying democracy where it reared it's head to support dictators that would hand over the country's goodies for peanuts. That's what imperial nations do.
The USA went to war sometimes for private companies, just as the old European powers did. The film, The Corporation and the life and times of General Smedley Butler makes for interesting viewing and reading.
"In 1935, Butler wrote a book entitled War Is a Racket, where he described and criticized the workings of the United States in its foreign actions and wars, such as those he was a part of, including the American corporations and other imperialist motivations behind them. After retiring from service, he became a popular activist, speaking at meetings organized by veterans, pacifists, and church groups in the 1930s."
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/War_Is_a_Racket
Dr Jekyll said What is the US 'way of thinking' anyway? When have they ever tried to force it on anyone?. As for causing hundreds of thousands of deaths and making the world a worse place, how? where? when?
so I answered with a few examples of American empire building and their forcing of their way of thinking on parts of the world.
so in short yes id say people were saying America was not an imperialistic nation just like us
unrepentant said:
Murcielago_Boy said:
I'm talking about the people.
The day-to-day interactions of the American people with me, with each other.
I'm talking about, image, fakeness, the value put on charisma, charm and MONEY... and whether they've utterly begun to buy into this shiny teeth BS culture more than
a) us Brits
b) more than themselves a few years ago.
There are many places and people in the US who do not even remotely resemble his description, it's just that they tend not to inhabit the areas *most* international visitors flock to. That demographic also doesn't have much mainstream media following it.
redtwin said:
unrepentant said:
Murcielago_Boy said:
I'm talking about the people.
The day-to-day interactions of the American people with me, with each other.
I'm talking about, image, fakeness, the value put on charisma, charm and MONEY... and whether they've utterly begun to buy into this shiny teeth BS culture more than
a) us Brits
b) more than themselves a few years ago.
There are many places and people in the US who do not even remotely resemble his description, it's just that they tend not to inhabit the areas *most* international visitors flock to. That demographic also doesn't have much mainstream media following it.
unrepentant said:
As I said in an early post I don't really recognise the America the OP paints. I live in the Midwest and whilst it's pretty conservative (and I'm not) it's a friendly place and everyone gets along for the most part. I don't find Americans any more pretentious than Brits and I would in all seriousness suggest that the OP may be getting an image mirrored back at him...
I'd agree with that. When I visit US pals they are nothing like the OP, nor is the area. They tend to be more conservative than I am (save for crime and punishment, I never meet anyone more right than I do!😆)Gassing Station | News, Politics & Economics | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff