searching on Pistonheads PLEASE
Discussion
If you are one of those of us who tries to search for information on PH can I please urge you to look at this thread:
http://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&a...
Can a few of you please try searching for something relevant that you can remember our forum discussing, and see if you can find it. Whether you can or not the PH webmaster needs to know. I have been doing searches on PH for about 8 years now to try to add info to past threads and i cannot seem to do it at the moment. Is it me? I want others to check!!! PLEASE
http://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&a...
Can a few of you please try searching for something relevant that you can remember our forum discussing, and see if you can find it. Whether you can or not the PH webmaster needs to know. I have been doing searches on PH for about 8 years now to try to add info to past threads and i cannot seem to do it at the moment. Is it me? I want others to check!!! PLEASE
I guess, from the lack of response (only glenrobbo and magpies seem to have tried) that not many members of this forum ever search for information from past threads? Is that a realistic assessment? If members do not use the search facilities then there may be little point in the webmasters spending time refining it. At the moment I am finding the new PH search arrangements pretty useless although searching by Google is still getting reasonable results.
I just tried searching for TVR S Series wheel refurb.
Found nothing of real relevance. Cannot alter search criteria on my windows phone apart from deselecting all then ticking s series. The sort by date option is not available to me.
It just leaves a link to useful links and the S owners list.
All in all, not a lot of help.
Probably just me, but you give it a try & see what you get......
Found nothing of real relevance. Cannot alter search criteria on my windows phone apart from deselecting all then ticking s series. The sort by date option is not available to me.
It just leaves a link to useful links and the S owners list.
All in all, not a lot of help.
Probably just me, but you give it a try & see what you get......
HvdWeerden said:
I just tried it, and it finds everything I tried. Just remember to set the filter after your (big amount) of search results.
Fine for me too. Doesn't work so well on mobile devices, you don't get the option to filter on S only, but on Mac and PC's you can select S only and don't have to deselect all the other results.Oldred_V8S said:
Fine for me too. Doesn't work so well on mobile devices, you don't get the option to filter on S only, but on Mac and PC's you can select S only and don't have to deselect all the other results.
I have just tried again using the format 'TVR S brake servo' written that way.It again gave me hundreds of listings which were not for TVR S, which is a rather odd logic for a 'search' engine. I tried the deselect and got the choice within TVR for S 'only', but it did not deselect everything else (I am using a modern laptop, windows 7 and up to date Mozilla). I didnt go any further.
Google found what I wanted straight away.
If this interests you then the thread to look at is
http://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&a...
I know what I'm doing with search engines and the PH one is rubbish, you shouldn't have to be messing around with filters.
After three or four variations in the wording of several topics for specific threads it failed to find any of them with any accuracy. It dug up all sorts of random threads from years ago but most had no direct bearing on the subject searched for.
Not really fit for purpose, I searched for all the topics using Google and found then straight away by using site: Pistonheads.com [search topic] so for example site: pistonheads.com Griffith wing mirror fix generated 8 pages of Griffith wing mirror threads...
After three or four variations in the wording of several topics for specific threads it failed to find any of them with any accuracy. It dug up all sorts of random threads from years ago but most had no direct bearing on the subject searched for.
Not really fit for purpose, I searched for all the topics using Google and found then straight away by using site: Pistonheads.com [search topic] so for example site: pistonheads.com Griffith wing mirror fix generated 8 pages of Griffith wing mirror threads...
Even more relieved! We have generated enough feedback to demonstrate to the PH webmaster that the new search arrangements are not 'fit for purpose' as they stand. Several very interesting points of principle have come up and the webmaster is going to come back to us. It will be on the webmaster link I set out earlier.
It's official! Definitely note returning the same useful results as before. I tried a search undertaken previously and got lots of irrelevant info and only part of what I knew should have been there. Worse than that, I got different results on different platforms!
The 'S' of 'S Series' seemed to cause particular problems (as it does on others sites) so I hope they fix it soon.
The 'S' of 'S Series' seemed to cause particular problems (as it does on others sites) so I hope they fix it soon.
I have invented a new game (Sorry, webmaster!) I searched PH for TVR S Bonnet catches, and I then spent a few moments trying to guess how it could possibly have come up with what it did come up with. Entertaining in a warped sort of way. (Google found the post I wanted straight away)
greymrj said:
I have invented a new game (Sorry, webmaster!) I searched PH for TVR S Bonnet catches, and I then spent a few moments trying to guess how it could possibly have come up with what it did come up with. Entertaining in a warped sort of way. (Google found the post I wanted straight away)
That search gives me all of 14 results. Clicking on the '1/x Replies' shows me the actual post containing the keywords. If I change the search to TVR S "Bonnet catches" , then I get 7 extremely relevant results.This is really for member rsscott who has also contributed to a Gassing Station debate on this. This issue does need serious study because unless the search engine works effectively, and IN A WAY THE USER CAN UNDERSTAND, then it greatly limits the use of PH as an 'archive' of information. This post is being linked to Racing Pete the webmaster and to Haymarkets Customer Experience Manager.
I am setting out my point of view, and being 'devils advocate' to some degree, in the hope that it might play a small part in getting an effective search facility.
Let us look at the new search facility and see what happens in practice, at least from the point of view of an 'average' member of this particular forum. That 'average' member is looking for info relevant to his issue with his car, he is primarily a car enthusiast rather than a computer expert. He wants the 'computer', in the form of the PH forum to do a job, he doesnt want to need to be a computer 'geek' to do it. We want to use the search facility to find things, we do not expect to have to encode our search subject or start deleting lots of alternative search criteria in any way to meet the idiosyncracy of the search engine
An owner of a TVR S type who want to find out the latest advice on,let us say bonnet catches, is very likely to enter into his search; TVR S Bonnet Catches. Nothing more complex, there is surely an inescapable logic in that? It is what you would do on a Google search is it not? Simples??
So I put TVR S bonnet catches into the search engine. I did not get the few results you suggested. I got 44 results. (interestingly I do not get the same results each time I tried!!!)
The first result I get is related to a Griff 500, and is from 2001. You must ask yourself how a search by the above subject could prioritise that result!
The second result is indeed related to an S but is only marginally relevant to the search subject, and is from 2004! That has been well and truely superseded by later information. But the searcher wouldnt known that! That makes it potentially a dangerously misleading result.
And so on!
Of the 44 posts you may say that I can delete 19 because they are not relevant to TVR. Ok, I can do that, with a bit of effort clicking a number of boxes, but I asked the search engine to do that and it has failed to restrict itself to what I asked for.
I decided to restrict to just the posts listed which were identified as TVR. That required 16 operations! That left me with 25 listings. I open that option and I find 5 are for S type the others 20 are not. Once again the search engine is not restricting to the subject. Two more operations and I finally have 5 apparently directly relevant to the subject I put in.
let me use an analogy often used in this kind of situation. I expect a search engine to direct me to the top of a 'pyramid' of information, to list first the single best choice it finds to match my subject. It may not be quite what I wanted so I can then go down the pyramid a layer and expand.
What this search engine appears to be doing is put me at the bottom of a pyramid of items it thinks might be relevant and expects me to start deleting or chosing options which are hopefully increasingly relevant to me.
So lets look at the 5 items left. Amazingly, only one is actually about bonnet catches (and has bonnet catches in the title) and that was outdated in 2004. One of the posts listed merely referred to a schedule of S cars, one of which had a single ref 'bonnet catches'.
The post I was actually looking for wasnt on the final 5, nor on the original 44. Yet that post was current (June 2015) and had all the words TVR, S, Bonnet, Catches, in the title!
So what I am asking, or saying, is this: would the average PH member, who is a car enthusiast but not necessarily a computer expert let alone well versed in search engine logic, find the current search engine helpful in finding what he wanted. I contend that he would NOT.
Using the example above I could not find the most 'relevant' post.
I asked a few other people to try. None of them found it either.
I asked those same people to try via Google. They all found it easily.
Q.E.D. ?
I am setting out my point of view, and being 'devils advocate' to some degree, in the hope that it might play a small part in getting an effective search facility.
Let us look at the new search facility and see what happens in practice, at least from the point of view of an 'average' member of this particular forum. That 'average' member is looking for info relevant to his issue with his car, he is primarily a car enthusiast rather than a computer expert. He wants the 'computer', in the form of the PH forum to do a job, he doesnt want to need to be a computer 'geek' to do it. We want to use the search facility to find things, we do not expect to have to encode our search subject or start deleting lots of alternative search criteria in any way to meet the idiosyncracy of the search engine
An owner of a TVR S type who want to find out the latest advice on,let us say bonnet catches, is very likely to enter into his search; TVR S Bonnet Catches. Nothing more complex, there is surely an inescapable logic in that? It is what you would do on a Google search is it not? Simples??
So I put TVR S bonnet catches into the search engine. I did not get the few results you suggested. I got 44 results. (interestingly I do not get the same results each time I tried!!!)
The first result I get is related to a Griff 500, and is from 2001. You must ask yourself how a search by the above subject could prioritise that result!
The second result is indeed related to an S but is only marginally relevant to the search subject, and is from 2004! That has been well and truely superseded by later information. But the searcher wouldnt known that! That makes it potentially a dangerously misleading result.
And so on!
Of the 44 posts you may say that I can delete 19 because they are not relevant to TVR. Ok, I can do that, with a bit of effort clicking a number of boxes, but I asked the search engine to do that and it has failed to restrict itself to what I asked for.
I decided to restrict to just the posts listed which were identified as TVR. That required 16 operations! That left me with 25 listings. I open that option and I find 5 are for S type the others 20 are not. Once again the search engine is not restricting to the subject. Two more operations and I finally have 5 apparently directly relevant to the subject I put in.
let me use an analogy often used in this kind of situation. I expect a search engine to direct me to the top of a 'pyramid' of information, to list first the single best choice it finds to match my subject. It may not be quite what I wanted so I can then go down the pyramid a layer and expand.
What this search engine appears to be doing is put me at the bottom of a pyramid of items it thinks might be relevant and expects me to start deleting or chosing options which are hopefully increasingly relevant to me.
So lets look at the 5 items left. Amazingly, only one is actually about bonnet catches (and has bonnet catches in the title) and that was outdated in 2004. One of the posts listed merely referred to a schedule of S cars, one of which had a single ref 'bonnet catches'.
The post I was actually looking for wasnt on the final 5, nor on the original 44. Yet that post was current (June 2015) and had all the words TVR, S, Bonnet, Catches, in the title!
So what I am asking, or saying, is this: would the average PH member, who is a car enthusiast but not necessarily a computer expert let alone well versed in search engine logic, find the current search engine helpful in finding what he wanted. I contend that he would NOT.
Using the example above I could not find the most 'relevant' post.
I asked a few other people to try. None of them found it either.
I asked those same people to try via Google. They all found it easily.
Q.E.D. ?
The use of quoted around words in a search is standard across pretty much any search engine (including Google).
I think you've also missed that it's possible to select just a single forum (and deselect all others) by hovering over it and selecting the link which appears.
As RacingPete has said in the main thread on this, the Google search of the site cannot include all posts - those in user only forums, for example aren't included. Google also takes time to update with new posts and when posts are moved.
I'm not saying the new search engine is perfect - for example I'd prefer it to default by date descending - but it's far more impressive that most.
Your particular example is a though one for any search engine. Anything with single characters is a challenge.
I think you've also missed that it's possible to select just a single forum (and deselect all others) by hovering over it and selecting the link which appears.
As RacingPete has said in the main thread on this, the Google search of the site cannot include all posts - those in user only forums, for example aren't included. Google also takes time to update with new posts and when posts are moved.
I'm not saying the new search engine is perfect - for example I'd prefer it to default by date descending - but it's far more impressive that most.
Your particular example is a though one for any search engine. Anything with single characters is a challenge.
I like being referred to as webmaster, makes me feel really young and back in the glory days of 2000 
TVR S Series search results are a challenge due to the single word, but not an insurmountable one. The power and money invested in Google to become the number one search engine has been great, but we can work on tuning the PH search to make it more relevant. Outside of this particular forum we have had great feedback on it, so we need to address the needs of this forum also to make it a success.
What would be really handy for us is to have some case examples (yes search terms that don't work are provided), but what I would like is the search term, and then a link to the result (or results) that you would expect to come up, or feel is most appropriate.
For example "TVR S Series bonnet catch" - would expect this threads (link to thread) to be the first result back.
From these examples we can then look at the logic, and help tune it so that it works better for the users of this forum too.
TVR S Series search results are a challenge due to the single word, but not an insurmountable one. The power and money invested in Google to become the number one search engine has been great, but we can work on tuning the PH search to make it more relevant. Outside of this particular forum we have had great feedback on it, so we need to address the needs of this forum also to make it a success.
What would be really handy for us is to have some case examples (yes search terms that don't work are provided), but what I would like is the search term, and then a link to the result (or results) that you would expect to come up, or feel is most appropriate.
For example "TVR S Series bonnet catch" - would expect this threads (link to thread) to be the first result back.
From these examples we can then look at the logic, and help tune it so that it works better for the users of this forum too.
Glad we could make you feel a little younger again
I think that trying to ensure PH continues to work well for us, plus my recent brush with Jeremy, have made me feel even older;)
Some considerable effort has been made, initiated by members before me, to use PH to maintain an archive of information regarding these cars, and to keep that archive updated and in a form where newer members can access the most up to date info as readily as possible.
To do that we have to encourage members to add to existing threads, or link to existing threads. If we cannot do that then we get a plethora of unlinked bits, efforts to reinvent the wheel, and confusing advice. Clearly we cannot expect members to add or link if they cannot readily find the threads concerned. It appears that most (and that includes respected and able members) cannot readily do so.
There is also an issue for some of us in that there are also owners on Facebook who are not on PH, or do not regularly use PH. Facebook is nothing like as good a forum for use as a reference source, yet questions do get asked every day on Facebook. Those questions are either 'answered' by people who do not know the depth of information on PH (which has often been bad, outdated or confusing advice), or one of the experienced PH members answers in detail which is an additional demand on their time, or one of us refers them to a link on PH. The problem now is to locate that link on PH. I regularly refer enguirers on Facebook to a PH thread which has the accumulated and updated information they want, but I have to try to find it via Google, I simply cannot find it quickly enough through the PH search engine
Thanks for the positive response. I cannot respond with examples just now but I will endeavour to give you the examples you need over the next few days. I assume I can continue to respond via this thread, is that Ok for you?
I think that trying to ensure PH continues to work well for us, plus my recent brush with Jeremy, have made me feel even older;)
Some considerable effort has been made, initiated by members before me, to use PH to maintain an archive of information regarding these cars, and to keep that archive updated and in a form where newer members can access the most up to date info as readily as possible.
To do that we have to encourage members to add to existing threads, or link to existing threads. If we cannot do that then we get a plethora of unlinked bits, efforts to reinvent the wheel, and confusing advice. Clearly we cannot expect members to add or link if they cannot readily find the threads concerned. It appears that most (and that includes respected and able members) cannot readily do so.
There is also an issue for some of us in that there are also owners on Facebook who are not on PH, or do not regularly use PH. Facebook is nothing like as good a forum for use as a reference source, yet questions do get asked every day on Facebook. Those questions are either 'answered' by people who do not know the depth of information on PH (which has often been bad, outdated or confusing advice), or one of the experienced PH members answers in detail which is an additional demand on their time, or one of us refers them to a link on PH. The problem now is to locate that link on PH. I regularly refer enguirers on Facebook to a PH thread which has the accumulated and updated information they want, but I have to try to find it via Google, I simply cannot find it quickly enough through the PH search engine
Thanks for the positive response. I cannot respond with examples just now but I will endeavour to give you the examples you need over the next few days. I assume I can continue to respond via this thread, is that Ok for you?
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