R420 build in Evo magazine
Discussion
Have Caterham shot themselves in the foot (again) here? The text in the "our fleet" section at the back of the mag talks about "woeful" instructions and a heap of missing parts.....
1852nd time lucky eh....
beggars belief.
On a separate note what's a sensible baseline for a mildly modified 1998 SLR
- 22k miles
- DVA 1.8K engine, 1227 cams, 222hp, 158lb ft
- R&R refreshed 6spd gearbox, AP suretrac LSD
- AP discs & calipers
- 1 way nitrons
- Caged SLR cage
- Anthracites with ZZRs plus split rim KN SLRs with ACB10s
- AIM MXL dash
The car has hardly done any miles in the last 3 years, and isn't getting used as much as I'd like. Not sure what to put it up for.
1852nd time lucky eh....
beggars belief.
On a separate note what's a sensible baseline for a mildly modified 1998 SLR
- 22k miles
- DVA 1.8K engine, 1227 cams, 222hp, 158lb ft
- R&R refreshed 6spd gearbox, AP suretrac LSD
- AP discs & calipers
- 1 way nitrons
- Caged SLR cage
- Anthracites with ZZRs plus split rim KN SLRs with ACB10s
- AIM MXL dash
The car has hardly done any miles in the last 3 years, and isn't getting used as much as I'd like. Not sure what to put it up for.
ForzaGilles said:
You don't mention what it's like cosmetically, Fergus, but I would've thought around 20k.
Cheers. I think "fair" is a sensible description. There are a few stone chips in places, etc. One of the rear wings has a small crack in it, etc. It's not a polishers car though! 
fergus said:
ForzaGilles said:
You don't mention what it's like cosmetically, Fergus, but I would've thought around 20k.
Cheers. I think "fair" is a sensible description. There are a few stone chips in places, etc. One of the rear wings has a small crack in it, etc. It's not a polishers car though! I'm currently in a dilemma about what to do with mine, as upgradeitis has taken hold. It's either a DVA engine, go the Duratec route, or sell the car and buy something else. 220bhp ish is the aim. Decisions, decisions...Having built an R400 this year, I wouldn't describe the manual as woeful, although it could be better.
Given that it is the same manual for most models, it's bound to be limited in detail but I would say I had 4 or 5 queries during the build, which were resolved quite quickly.
As for parts, I did have a few things missing, I was sent two left doors and no right. I also reported a few things missing that I later found.
Having built the car, I'd have no hesitation in recommending a build to anyone with reasonable mechanical knowledge and ability, and wouldn't mind doing another!
My only real issue is that I am on my third radiator, which again leaks slightly, though from a different place to the others. Whoever makes them for Caterham needs to up their game, welding properly isn't that hard. I'm going to have the second one repaired by a specialist and put it back in place of the third, there seems little point just changing it again.
Given that it is the same manual for most models, it's bound to be limited in detail but I would say I had 4 or 5 queries during the build, which were resolved quite quickly.
As for parts, I did have a few things missing, I was sent two left doors and no right. I also reported a few things missing that I later found.
Having built the car, I'd have no hesitation in recommending a build to anyone with reasonable mechanical knowledge and ability, and wouldn't mind doing another!
My only real issue is that I am on my third radiator, which again leaks slightly, though from a different place to the others. Whoever makes them for Caterham needs to up their game, welding properly isn't that hard. I'm going to have the second one repaired by a specialist and put it back in place of the third, there seems little point just changing it again.
REALIST123 said:
Having built an R400 this year, I wouldn't describe the manual as woeful, although it could be better.
Given that it is the same manual for most models, it's bound to be limited in detail but I would say I had 4 or 5 queries during the build, which were resolved quite quickly.
As for parts, I did have a few things missing, I was sent two left doors and no right. I also reported a few things missing that I later found.
Having built the car, I'd have no hesitation in recommending a build to anyone with reasonable mechanical knowledge and ability, and wouldn't mind doing another!
My only real issue is that I am on my third radiator, which again leaks slightly, though from a different place to the others. Whoever makes them for Caterham needs to up their game, welding properly isn't that hard. I'm going to have the second one repaired by a specialist and put it back in place of the third, there seems little point just changing it again.
My point related to the likely negative publicity this would have generated for potential owners currently unfamiliar with the brand but considering one of Caterham's current offerings as a CDK/home-build car. The sort of commentary in Evo would likely put a percentage of potential purchasers off IMHO, notwithstanding your actual experiences as highlighted above.Given that it is the same manual for most models, it's bound to be limited in detail but I would say I had 4 or 5 queries during the build, which were resolved quite quickly.
As for parts, I did have a few things missing, I was sent two left doors and no right. I also reported a few things missing that I later found.
Having built the car, I'd have no hesitation in recommending a build to anyone with reasonable mechanical knowledge and ability, and wouldn't mind doing another!
My only real issue is that I am on my third radiator, which again leaks slightly, though from a different place to the others. Whoever makes them for Caterham needs to up their game, welding properly isn't that hard. I'm going to have the second one repaired by a specialist and put it back in place of the third, there seems little point just changing it again.
fergus said:
REALIST123 said:
Having built an R400 this year, I wouldn't describe the manual as woeful, although it could be better.
Given that it is the same manual for most models, it's bound to be limited in detail but I would say I had 4 or 5 queries during the build, which were resolved quite quickly.
As for parts, I did have a few things missing, I was sent two left doors and no right. I also reported a few things missing that I later found.
Having built the car, I'd have no hesitation in recommending a build to anyone with reasonable mechanical knowledge and ability, and wouldn't mind doing another!
My only real issue is that I am on my third radiator, which again leaks slightly, though from a different place to the others. Whoever makes them for Caterham needs to up their game, welding properly isn't that hard. I'm going to have the second one repaired by a specialist and put it back in place of the third, there seems little point just changing it again.
My point related to the likely negative publicity this would have generated for potential owners currently unfamiliar with the brand but considering one of Caterham's current offerings as a CDK/home-build car. The sort of commentary in Evo would likely put a percentage of potential purchasers off IMHO, notwithstanding your actual experiences as highlighted above.Given that it is the same manual for most models, it's bound to be limited in detail but I would say I had 4 or 5 queries during the build, which were resolved quite quickly.
As for parts, I did have a few things missing, I was sent two left doors and no right. I also reported a few things missing that I later found.
Having built the car, I'd have no hesitation in recommending a build to anyone with reasonable mechanical knowledge and ability, and wouldn't mind doing another!
My only real issue is that I am on my third radiator, which again leaks slightly, though from a different place to the others. Whoever makes them for Caterham needs to up their game, welding properly isn't that hard. I'm going to have the second one repaired by a specialist and put it back in place of the third, there seems little point just changing it again.
REALIST123 said:
I wouldn't argue with that, but I was expressing my opinion that it doesn't seem a fair criticism. Unless the EVO staff aren't very competent?
Per their text, they managed to get several bits wrong and had to rely on the mission motorsport guys and the Caterham factory to get them past the finish line.... they maybe good at writing about and potentially driving cars, but their knowledge would appear to end there. I still maintain that given Evo's circulation/readership, they may well have put a few potential punters off a 7.
fergus said:
REALIST123 said:
I wouldn't argue with that, but I was expressing my opinion that it doesn't seem a fair criticism. Unless the EVO staff aren't very competent?
Per their text, they managed to get several bits wrong and had to rely on the mission motorsport guys and the Caterham factory to get them past the finish line.... they maybe good at writing about and potentially driving cars, but their knowledge would appear to end there. I still maintain that given Evo's circulation/readership, they may well have put a few potential punters off a 7.
Surely most people who build a 7 don't simply go to the showroom, say "I'll have that one", wait for the kit then start to construct it upon its arrival.... but read blogs, look at BlatChat, Pistonheads etc and consequently know that the manual is less than perfect, that Derek is a brick and invaluable, that there will be shortages etc.
What I got wrong was under-estimating the cost of extra bits - first fill kit, transport to/from the PBC etc. Ironically, the actual cost of the PBC was the only thing I had allowed too much for as I should've had more faith in my ability!
Whilst aspects could and should be improved by Caterham, ultimately, to me, it was almost a rite of passage and part of the experience (fun?) of building my own car.
What I got wrong was under-estimating the cost of extra bits - first fill kit, transport to/from the PBC etc. Ironically, the actual cost of the PBC was the only thing I had allowed too much for as I should've had more faith in my ability!
Whilst aspects could and should be improved by Caterham, ultimately, to me, it was almost a rite of passage and part of the experience (fun?) of building my own car.
BigCol said:
Surely most people who build a 7 don't simply go to the showroom, say "I'll have that one", wait for the kit then start to construct it upon its arrival.... but read blogs, look at BlatChat, Pistonheads etc and consequently know that the manual is less than perfect, that Derek is a brick and invaluable, that there will be shortages etc.
What I got wrong was under-estimating the cost of extra bits - first fill kit, transport to/from the PBC etc. Ironically, the actual cost of the PBC was the only thing I had allowed too much for as I should've had more faith in my ability!
Whilst aspects could and should be improved by Caterham, ultimately, to me, it was almost a rite of passage and part of the experience (fun?) of building my own car.
I wasn't aware that pistonheads / blat chat etc was around in 1957...or 1973 What I got wrong was under-estimating the cost of extra bits - first fill kit, transport to/from the PBC etc. Ironically, the actual cost of the PBC was the only thing I had allowed too much for as I should've had more faith in my ability!
Whilst aspects could and should be improved by Caterham, ultimately, to me, it was almost a rite of passage and part of the experience (fun?) of building my own car.
I built my first car in 1998 the manual was sufficient and had a couple of queries with the factory. The car sailed through the PBC and SVA I think that unlike the current generation some of us have had apprenticeships (old fashioned ones) and some mechanical sense as the 'old cars' from our generation did need home working. So a journalist or possibly the younger generation who have no mechanical back ground may struggle more.
It annoys me that people moan about the Caterham build instructions. I built a seven 4 years ago. I had a 200 page manual with all the torque settings for important fastenings, a wiring diagram and obviously I decided that it would be useful to have the Haynes manuals for the major donor parts (Focus Mk2 and Sierra).
I found a couple of things that didn't seem right and contacted the factory by e-mail, I received prompt and excellent clarification within a coupe of days.
The kit went together surprisingly easily, I didn't have to use a file to open up a bolt hole once.
20 years ago I built a Westfield and the manual was 12 sides of A4, no torque settings, all it did was make sure I got the major suspension parts in the correct places and suggested routes for brake pipes etc. It was assumed that as I was building a car from scratch that I would have some prior mechanical experience and bother to seek other sources of information readily available to find out about the donor parts. It took a lot longer the build the Westfield, mainly because I had to fabricate several brackets and even the entire throttle linkage.
People who complain about the Caterham build instructions want someone to give them a life times experience of working on cars, and a step by step guide to constructing a car that they can follow and finish it within a month. I think that is totally unreasonable, if you don't know how to change your brake pads or a clutch, should you really be building a car? And if you go wrong, is it really the fault of the bloke who wrote the manual?
I found a couple of things that didn't seem right and contacted the factory by e-mail, I received prompt and excellent clarification within a coupe of days.
The kit went together surprisingly easily, I didn't have to use a file to open up a bolt hole once.
20 years ago I built a Westfield and the manual was 12 sides of A4, no torque settings, all it did was make sure I got the major suspension parts in the correct places and suggested routes for brake pipes etc. It was assumed that as I was building a car from scratch that I would have some prior mechanical experience and bother to seek other sources of information readily available to find out about the donor parts. It took a lot longer the build the Westfield, mainly because I had to fabricate several brackets and even the entire throttle linkage.
People who complain about the Caterham build instructions want someone to give them a life times experience of working on cars, and a step by step guide to constructing a car that they can follow and finish it within a month. I think that is totally unreasonable, if you don't know how to change your brake pads or a clutch, should you really be building a car? And if you go wrong, is it really the fault of the bloke who wrote the manual?
I'm glad Caterham got it right sometimes since 2007!
The build "experience" for me was dire. NO manual, hugely incomplete kit and absolutely no interest or support from the factory (appart from in my money!).
It has left a bitter taste; I'd not want to deal with them again.
Thankfully the car makes up for it but glad there a good specialists around and I dont have to head south again.
The build "experience" for me was dire. NO manual, hugely incomplete kit and absolutely no interest or support from the factory (appart from in my money!).
It has left a bitter taste; I'd not want to deal with them again.
Thankfully the car makes up for it but glad there a good specialists around and I dont have to head south again.
I'm glad Caterham got it right sometimes since 2007!
The build "experience" for me was dire. NO manual, hugely incomplete kit and absolutely no interest or support from the factory (appart from in my money!).
It has left a bitter taste; I'd not want to deal with them again.
Thankfully the car makes up for it but glad there a good specialists around and I dont have to head south again.
The build "experience" for me was dire. NO manual, hugely incomplete kit and absolutely no interest or support from the factory (appart from in my money!).
It has left a bitter taste; I'd not want to deal with them again.
Thankfully the car makes up for it but glad there a good specialists around and I dont have to head south again.
downsman said:
It annoys me that people moan about the Caterham build instructions. I built a seven 4 years ago. I had a 200 page manual with all the torque settings for important fastenings, a wiring diagram and obviously I decided that it would be useful to have the Haynes manuals for the major donor parts (Focus Mk2 and Sierra).
I found a couple of things that didn't seem right and contacted the factory by e-mail, I received prompt and excellent clarification within a coupe of days.
The kit went together surprisingly easily, I didn't have to use a file to open up a bolt hole once.
20 years ago I built a Westfield and the manual was 12 sides of A4, no torque settings, all it did was make sure I got the major suspension parts in the correct places and suggested routes for brake pipes etc. It was assumed that as I was building a car from scratch that I would have some prior mechanical experience and bother to seek other sources of information readily available to find out about the donor parts. It took a lot longer the build the Westfield, mainly because I had to fabricate several brackets and even the entire throttle linkage.
People who complain about the Caterham build instructions want someone to give them a life times experience of working on cars, and a step by step guide to constructing a car that they can follow and finish it within a month. I think that is totally unreasonable, if you don't know how to change your brake pads or a clutch, should you really be building a car? And if you go wrong, is it really the fault of the bloke who wrote the manual?
My original point was rather that whatever state the instructions which were provided to Evo were in, then notwithstanding their perhaps lack of mechanical talent, they published text to the effect that the self-build process was not an easy/pleasant one to follow....I found a couple of things that didn't seem right and contacted the factory by e-mail, I received prompt and excellent clarification within a coupe of days.
The kit went together surprisingly easily, I didn't have to use a file to open up a bolt hole once.
20 years ago I built a Westfield and the manual was 12 sides of A4, no torque settings, all it did was make sure I got the major suspension parts in the correct places and suggested routes for brake pipes etc. It was assumed that as I was building a car from scratch that I would have some prior mechanical experience and bother to seek other sources of information readily available to find out about the donor parts. It took a lot longer the build the Westfield, mainly because I had to fabricate several brackets and even the entire throttle linkage.
People who complain about the Caterham build instructions want someone to give them a life times experience of working on cars, and a step by step guide to constructing a car that they can follow and finish it within a month. I think that is totally unreasonable, if you don't know how to change your brake pads or a clutch, should you really be building a car? And if you go wrong, is it really the fault of the bloke who wrote the manual?
Whether you found the instructions / build easy or not is kind of moot, as potential buyers of 7s in kit form, who may not all be well informed enough to do the sort of research alluded to on this thread, may be swayed by what they've read. It was almost a passing comment...
As you were.
PS would anyone expect warm 215 section ZZRs not to be able to hook up for over 100m pulling out of a junction?
It isn't just self build - I bought a new car from them in 2007 which I still have. Love the car but the service was terrible - total disinterest when I turned up from 150 miles away to collect, no guidance on stuff like the Stack which was new to me , no fuel in at all and a speedo which over-read by up to 500mph.....
Various bits fell off - eg door strap - within 2 days and the handbook was for a different engined car. Two trips of 300 miles needed to sort the malfunctioning speedo as they got it to under-read massively the first time they fixed it . No advice on spec when ordering - so I had to work out the lowered floor was essential for my height.General disinterest - apart from parting me from £30k + . Hope they have improved since then .
Various bits fell off - eg door strap - within 2 days and the handbook was for a different engined car. Two trips of 300 miles needed to sort the malfunctioning speedo as they got it to under-read massively the first time they fixed it . No advice on spec when ordering - so I had to work out the lowered floor was essential for my height.General disinterest - apart from parting me from £30k + . Hope they have improved since then .
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