To XJR or not to XJR

[Rubin215]

Hello Jaguar Folks, I'm new here (more a Biker Banter guy) so go easy with me...


I've long hankered after something luxury in my life, luxury but sporty/fastish/make me smiley...


My local garage (not a Jag dealer) have a car they are selling on behalf of a customer that has caught my eye:

'98 XJR, 2 owners before current, Jaguar service history, 65000 miles.
The car has had a new engine in 2003 (goodwill from Jag due to "cylinder head pitting") but was parked up in 2007 and left idle until last year when the decision was taken to finally sell it.
Local garage have put it back on the road and done a service on it which included new plugs, new brakes, new battery and 2 new tyres and possibly a new fuel pump (not sure what else).
There is one declared fault which is that the kick-down in the autobox doesn't work, but this has not been explored any further than just confirming that it doesn't work.
It has general age related marks on the body but no significant rust (tiny bit of bubbling below o/s rear lamp cluster), a saggy headlining and slightly shabby drivers seat leather (ivory interior).

Price is currently £3200, but I think there might be a little bit of movement in there.

What do you think folks; is this madness or much cheapness?

Heck of a lot of car for the cash, but...

[jamieduff1981]

Nice cars, but that sort of money would give you a choice of XJRs.

[guru_1071]

Rubin215 said:

Hello Jaguar Folks, I'm new here (more a Biker Banter guy) so go easy with me...


I've long hankered after something luxury in my life, luxury but sporty/fastish/make me smiley...


My local garage (not a Jag dealer) have a car they are selling on behalf of a customer that has caught my eye:

'98 XJR, 2 owners before current, Jaguar service history, 65000 miles.
The car has had a new engine in 2003 (goodwill from Jag due to "cylinder head pitting") but was parked up in 2007 and left idle until last year when the decision was taken to finally sell it.
Local garage have put it back on the road and done a service on it which included new plugs, new brakes, new battery and 2 new tyres and possibly a new fuel pump (not sure what else).
There is one declared fault which is that the kick-down in the autobox doesn't work, but this has not been explored any further than just confirming that it doesn't work.
It has general age related marks on the body but no significant rust (tiny bit of bubbling below o/s rear lamp cluster), a saggy headlining and slightly shabby drivers seat leather (ivory interior).

Price is currently £3200, but I think there might be a little bit of movement in there.

What do you think folks; is this madness or much cheapness?

Heck of a lot of car for the cash, but...

I would say that its overpriced, if its got visible rust bubbles and a poor interior plus the gearbox fault (which will probably be a swine to sort) its at the bottom end of the price range.

an xjr is certainly a car to have - they seem to be under the radar when compared to bmw's etc and this is reflected in the price - they have great performance and as long as you can cope with the mpg's are a great car.

ive had one for just over a year and still love it, they are a sharp looking car (as long as they have the penta wheels on them )


I honestly thing that the one you mentioned would be a sub £1500 car on ebay - they do like to rust underneath, and bubbeling under the back lights, back arches, the floor where it meets the outer sills, and the chassis behind the front shockers is all fairly involved to fix.

I was offered one the other week, it looked perfect, really tidy, but had a complete absence of inner sills........even the owner was shocked when i showed him how bad it was!

[Rubin215]

guru_1071 said:

I would say that its overpriced, if its got visible rust bubbles and a poor interior plus the gearbox fault (which will probably be a swine to sort) its at the bottom end of the price range.

an xjr is certainly a car to have - they seem to be under the radar when compared to bmw's etc and this is reflected in the price - they have great performance and as long as you can cope with the mpg's are a great car.

ive had one for just over a year and still love it, they are a sharp looking car (as long as they have the penta wheels on them )


I honestly thing that the one you mentioned would be a sub £1500 car on ebay - they do like to rust underneath, and bubbeling under the back lights, back arches, the floor where it meets the outer sills, and the chassis behind the front shockers is all fairly involved to fix.

I was offered one the other week, it looked perfect, really tidy, but had a complete absence of inner sills........even the owner was shocked when i showed him how bad it was!

I think I've maybe made it sound worse than it is.
The rust bubbling is definitely just surface rust, not rusting through from inside, back arches and floor are solid, strut tops and area around are sound, the interior is pretty good, it is just wear marks on the driver's seat from getting in/out.


Some quick snaps from my phone; the car has been sitting outside for a month so is quite dirty.

















What would be a fair price anyway?
I'm not up on car values at all, so it seems like a lot of car for the cash to me.

Edited by Rubin215 on Saturday 18th July 11:57

[guru_1071]

the gearbox is still a big worry

it may be a fault from it been stood which will get better once its been used, or it could be a more serious internal fault - you can change the oil in them (look on youtube - there are loads of videos of people doing it) which would maybe help.

i think i would want to use it for a couple of days, starting it from cold and letting it do its thing and using it as a manual to make sure that its changing smooth and not jerking at all (which is a sign of imminent box trouble) before i bought it.

don't be put off buying one, mine has been a fantastic car, with just a few faults to remind me that its a jaguar



edit - seen the photos

that looks nice, nice colour, the best wheels, the best colour wood for the dash. i hate cream seats, if it had black leather....it would be perfect

oh, and those wooden wheels are horrible, the first thing i did with mine was to remove it and fit a standard full black leather one (about £40 off ebay). the wooden ones are just horrible to grip and the change between the wood and the plastic is horrid when you are using it.

it does look as if it needs a good valet

Edited by guru_1071 on Saturday 18th July 12:11

[Jaguar steve]

Gearbox fault says walk or possibily run away.

JS X308 Buyers Guide.

OVERVIEW

To avoid XJ model confusion the 1997-2002 V8 engined XJ is referred to by its factory designation as the X308. The V8 engine in the 308 is available in a 3.2, 4.0 with VVT and a supercharged 4.0 and all versions are 5 speed auto only. £3000 should buy you a good example of a base 3.2, but the best low mileage cars or high spec ones are priced at up to double that. Engines were revised in late 1999 model year from AJ26 version to AJ27. A car fitted with the revised engine version can be identified by a VIN number ending in five, not six digits. AJ26 cars had weak water pumps, secondary timing chain tensioners, throttle bodies and a Nicasil coating applied directly on the aluminum block bore walls rather than using conventional liners pressed into the block.

ENGINE NICASIL
Some Nicasil coatings suffered from erosion due to a combination of high Sulphur content fuel and repeated short trips. Sulphur maximum allowable limits in petrol were lowered considerably in Jan 2000 so any pre 2000 Nicasil coated V8 engine that's still OK now should be fine forever. Several Nicasil lined engines were changed under warranty so you may find a pre 2000 car with a later steel lined engine fitted - identify this by the presence of a green tag on the head buried at the back of the RH bank and the engine change should also be recorded in the history. Symptoms of bore erosion and loss of compression are poor cold starting, a lumpy idle and heavy oil deposits in the breather system and air intake. Crankcase pressure will be high too – a quick check for this is to slightly lift the oil filler cap at hot idle. There should be little or no internal pressure or fumes escaping. Jaguar dealers can perform a blow by check to determine engine condition. A good condition engine will show less than 25 l/m, anything over 40 l/m will make a good Top Gear coffee table.

ENGINE COOLING
Impellors on AJ26 water pumps can disintegrate giving a loss of efficiency leading to overheating and potential head gasket failure. An early pump can be changed to the later version with a metal, not plastic impellor. The temperature gauge is software driven and is not always an accurate refection of actual coolant temperature.
For an indication of water pump efficiency, remove the coolant header tank cap when the engine is STONE COLD, start up and gently increase engine speed. If the water pump is healthy you should see a steady stream of coolant into the tank from the thin return pipe that runs back from the front of the engine.
You may be able to identify the later type of pump by the presence of a black plastic, not metal gasket, but the only certain way is to remove the pump and have a look. Spring type coolant hose clips can loose tension and allow pipes to blow off and some plastic parts on the hoses, unions and thermostat housing are delicate. It’s worth replacing all the sprung coolant clips with proper Jubilee ones. Check all over for evidence of coolant leaks, particularly around the thermostat/filler cap tower and coolant (valley) pipes underneath the inlet manifold. Occasional auxiliary heater pump failures can lead to no heat output in the cabin at low engine RPM. Cycle the whole climate and a/c system through all vent operations and temperature range. Two types of coolant available for the XJ - don’t mix the later orange long life one with the earlier type.

ENGINE THROTTLE BODIES
AJ26 throttle bodies ought to have been changed to the later design under a factory safety recall. Some of the early bodies suffered from failing actuating motors causing to the engine to cut out completely on the overrun. The later design should have been factory fitted to all cars from VIN 043775 onwards.

SECONDARY TIMING CHAIN TENSIONERS AND CHAINS
The only post AJ26 revision engine issue is the secondary timing chain tensioners. These were revised to a mk 2 version around the same time as the rest of the 1999 engine revisions but the mk 2 type still had a plastic body which can crack or break up leading to slipped or broken chains. Mk 1 tensioners are actuated by engine oil pressure and failure can often be identified by a sharp rattling noise similar to a bicycle chain dragging on the chain guard on a cold start. The mk2 type is permanently tensioned by an integral spring instead which means it’ll usually fail silently.
A permanent solution is to retro-fit the later mk3 version tensioner made with a metal, not plastic body from the later 4.2 incarnation of the V8 engine and the only way to be sure of which tensioners are fitted to an 308 is to either have a receipt with tensioner part numbers C2A1511 and C2A1512 which are the metal bodied type and the required 4 new bolts to fit them on it relating to that particular car or remove the RH cam cover - the LH is a PITA to get off - and have a look. A reddish/orange (mk1) or cream (mk2) plastic tensioner body is bad news, a grey aluminum metal one (mk3) is good.
The cam phasing on the V8 means the timing gear works hard and timing chains can stretch at high mileages or on neglected cars. If this is identified then a full chain and tensioner replacement is required costing up to £1000. If the chains/sprockets and guides are OK then it’s a wise precaution to fit the mk3 secondary tensioners which is a fairly easy DIY job. Tensioners cost around £75 a set plus a couple of quid for new bolts. Cam setting tools for this job and all other special tools needed for any work on a 308 can all be hired from the Jaguar Enthusiasts’ Club. Secondary tensioners can also be changed without any tools by removing the exhaust cam whilst preserving the timing with a tie wrap holding the chain on the ex cam sprocket and easing the tensioners out of location.
Exhaust cam chains slipping one tooth – usually on a cold start - will give a very rough running engine, more than one tooth slipped means exhaust valves will meet pistons.

A good general rule of thumb for engine condition is internal cleanliness. Bright shiny metal inside the oil filler cap and dipstick along with clean oil and no evidence of leaks is a good sign, as is clear coolant that does not smell or taste bitter or acrid.


GEARBOX/ DRIVELINE
All X308s have a “sealed for life” gearbox – ZF unit in the n/a cars and a Mercedes one in the supercharged cars. Loads have failed now - just look on ebay in the non runners or spares and repairs section. Any car that hesitates or engages Drive with a jerk or thump as the engine speed rises has a potential gearbox failure looming. Gear changes should be seamless and quiet and you should be able to play tunes with the throttle, Sport switch and J gate selector. Any car stuck in 4th or 5th is FUBAR’d.
A very faint gear whine may be heard in intermediate gears. Any gearbox issues or concerns are potentially fatal. An oil and filter change may be all that’s needed to cure a gearbox malfunction but that’s never guaranteed.
Ideally the gearbox oil and filter should be changed at 50k then at 25k intervals; it's not a simple drain and refill on the ZF box as the final fill has to be done quickly with the engine running and within a narrow temperature range. There is no conventional dipstick for checking oil level.
The ZF 5 speed box on the n/a cars requires Esso/Mobil longlife LT 71141 fluid also known as Lifeguard Fluid 5 and not conventional Dexron 3. The Mercedes gearbox in the supercharged version is also sealed for life but the same change requirement apply although you can use Dexron 3 in this box and once you have fitted a temporary dipstick it’s a much less complex job to do. Some transmission specialists offer a flush and change service done via the rather fragile oil cooler pipes in the radiator which also gets the oil otherwise retained in the torque converter out.

The same applies to the rear axle. Oil should be changed but there’s no drain plug. Old oil has to be vacuum extracted out of the filler plug. Refill with a API GL5 75 or 85/90 oil. Noisy diffs can be quieted down quite a bit with EP140 or 250 oil.

BODY, PAINT AND CORROSION
Substantially better than earlier cars but 308’s still rust. Look for corrosion round the rear wheel arches, round the front and rear screens especially underneath the screen rubbers in the bottom corners, bottom of the front wings, inner and outer sills and closing panels and most importantly behind the front shocks on both sides. There's a reinforcing plate where the engine sub frame V mount is bolted to the body rail and some cars have corroded badly here. Corrosion around the same area may also be visible in the engine compartment on the top of the body rail around the heads of the two bolts that retain the top of the V mounts. Corrosion here is an MOT fail and a big welding job. Another area to check is the joint between the rear of the front inner wings and the bulkhead. Body and paintwork is otherwise pretty good however some darker coloured cars suffer from peeling lacquer. Bumper corners are susceptible to damage and bumper mounting brackets can corrode.

Lacquer on the XJ8 is soft and easy to scratch with careless washing Providing you can’t actually feel scratches with a thumbnail and the paint colour underneath is OK it’s possible to restore the bodywork to a very good finish with a through clay, polish and wax. Stripe down body flanks if car has one is hand painted and not always completely straight.

INTERIOR
Always leather with different levels of trim and seat design. Wood trim clips on and is easy to change to different type. Driver’s seat back and steering wheels tend to suffer from wear. Head linings can sag. LWB version has more room in back.

SUSPENSION, TYRES AND BRAKES
X308s are hard on suspension and brakes, listen and feel very carefully for any clonking or knocking over bumps and make sure the car comes to a straight judder-free stop under both light and hard braking. A sharp rattle heard and felt through the steering over bumps combined with a little free play in the steering wheel may be a worn crush joint on the lower steering column.

A clattery rattle from the rear is likely to be failed shocks or shock bushes. X308s with weak rear A frame bushes or rear hub pivots will tend to self steer and wander about under hard acceleration.

Feel round the tyres for uneven wear patterns; any suspension wear or bush failure giving incorrect geometry will cause tyres to feather badly and heavy wear in the inside edges is a symptom of excess negative camber from wishbone bush or ball joint failure. Slight and even feathering is normal on the front tyres.

All Jaguar XJs are very sensitive to wheel and tyre imbalances or damage, typically you'll feel a steering wobble between 50-70MPH and possibly vibration through the seat if there are any tyre problems or buckled wheels. A Hunter Roadforce or in situ wheel balance is usually the solution. Incorrect tyre pressures, worn out or cheap budget tyres will severely affect handling and ride. Most X308s exhibit a faint exhaust harmonic around 50 and another one at 65MPH. You might possibly experience a hint of driveline vibration through the body too. Don't expect too much in the way of the legendary Jaguar ride quality either - it's pretty good on touring (black shocks) suspension and 16" wheels but sport suspension cars (green shocks) are stiffer and have a thicker front anti roll bar and one on the rear too which when combined with larger diameter wheels and lower profile tyres gives a hard crashy ride on poor roads. CATS suspension may be fitted as an option to any X308. CATS has electronically controlled valves in the shocks to vary the damping rates depending on driving style. Identify CATS by the presence of a plastic cover over the top of the front shock absorber with a lead going into it.

ELECTRICIAL/ OBD2 DIAGNOSTICS
Electrical systems are generally pretty robust. As with any old car you might have the odd problem so check absolutely everything works. Even the earliest X308 is OBD2 compliant and a £20 code reader plugged into the socket in the driver’s footwell will help diagnosis a lot. Electric aerials are vunerable, there are occasional O2 sensor, airflow meter and brake light switch failures.
XJ’s need a strong battery to avoid random error messages appearing on start up. If you get one – usually TRAC FAIL – the battery is on its way out or needs several days on a trickle charge to bring it back up to full capacity.

BUYING AND LIVING WITH AN XJ
Generally the 1997-2002 XJ8 is a strong car and capable of big mileages if maintained well and not abused or neglected. It's mostly easy enough to DIY and parts are reasonable and in good supply from several independents and the Jaguar Classic Parts scheme. Expect around 26/8 MPG on the motorway, 20/4 round town and mid teens or less if you nail it everywhere. Tyres are around £100/120 a corner in 16" diameter size. The 3.2 is quick enough (0-60 is 8s) the 4.0 is much rarer and does the same in 7.0.

Shortening intervals between servicing and using a genuine fully synthetic oil is worthwhile. It’ll help protect the timing chains and give improved fuel economy. A through rust proofing and full fluid change is a benefit too if you want to preserve the car. Official servicing is annual or 10000 miles. 70k service is the expensive one on n/a cars.

One last thing. A software fault means you should never start an XJ8 from cold and then switch off again straightaway and before allowing the temp gauge to move off the cold section of the scale. Chances are it’ll flood when you next start and wash all the oil of the bores and it’s a right PITA to get it running again.

[Rubin215]

Going to go and see it tomorrow, see if I can blag a test drive and see what it feels like.
Hopefully have more chance to poke around it too, maybe see if I can persuade them to stick it on a ramp for me (busy working garage y'see).

So what do the Jag-buffs of PH think I should be trying to get it for, if it all checks out ok?

[Speedracer329]

From reading the replies to your post the advice is to not buy at all, & I would agree.
They are wonderful cars but why take a chance on this one, the purchase price plus wanted it costs to sort out its issues would buy you a very very nice example with absolutely no issues at all.

[t400ble]

Walk away, better ones out there

[Rich1973]

I sold my pretty good condition 2000 W XJR for that price 3 years ago. Perfect body and kickdown worked.

[guru_1071]

I paid £1800 for mine, bit of bubble of the back arch and a scuff on the drivers seat

mine had a expensive stainless exhaust on it as well

[Rubin215]

Well, yesterday's test didn't go too well.

Battery was flatter than a flat thing so it needed jump started.

Then it was showing alternative traction control / abs faults.

First run it wouldn't rev above 2,500 and when I put the foot down hard it felt like it dropped a few cylinders. The garage hooked it up to the diagnostics and cleared a gearbox fault code (output speed?).

Second run it wouldn't rev beyond 4,500 and, in sport mode, wouldn't change up when pulling away.

Finally, on the way back to the garage, I got a gearbox fault warning on the display and it started smoking on the overrun.
By the time I got in, it was also smoking alarmingly from under the bonnet.

I think I'll just leave it...

[LordGrover]

Sounds like a lucky escape.

[deadslow]

There's loads to choose from and its a buyer's market.

[Rubin215]

Update:

I was back in the garage for something else today and asked about the XJR.
The oil leak was, apparently, gearbox oil leaking out when hot as it had been overfilled previously and, since its elderly owner only ever bimbled about in it, it had never been properly thrashed.
This oil was then dropping onto the hot exhaust on one side, hence the smoke (it was only from one side, I just assumed the exhaust was sided, not joined)
They have now flushed the gearbox several times, changed the filter and cleared any fault codes;I was encouraged to take it for a drive and see for myself.

It goes like stink! A proper full-fat old-school luxury hooligan.
All the revs are there, all the gears are smooth, sport mode, j gate, abs and traction control all present and correct.

The price has also become very negotiable as the owner now "just wants rid of it..."

With that in mind, what should I be aiming for...?

[YoungRestorer]

As has already been said, you probably shouldn't be buying this one. If the problems are all fixed, why would the garage owner be looking to get rid of it ASAP, with an extremely negotiable price?

On that basis, anything more than £2000 would seem a rip off, but the general consensus seems to be "Do not XJR with this one in particular".

[deadslow]

A lot of the problems could have been due to poor battery - they are very sensitive to this and can throw up a multitude of warnings/failsafe mode when, really, there's not too much wrong.

Given the previous horrendous test drive, you might as well try them at £1k. They can only say no.

[LordGrover]

You clearly want someone to say yes, so go for it.
If it bites you in the bum, ah well - we live and learn.
Knock them down as much as you can - start at £1,500 and get yourself a smashing car. Then cross your fingers.

[Rubin215]

YoungRestorer said:

As has already been said, you probably shouldn't be buying this one. If the problems are all fixed, why would the garage owner be looking to get rid of it ASAP, with an extremely negotiable price?

On that basis, anything more than £2000 would seem a rip off, but the general consensus seems to be "Do not XJR with this one in particular".

The car doesn't belong to the garage, it belongs to a customer who asked the garage to put it back on the road again and sell it for them.
The car was laid up in 2007 when the owner had his license removed by DVLA for general age/decrepitude issues.
Apparently he didn't sell it originally as he hoped he would get his license back eventually however his wife has finally persuaded him to get rid of it.

So far, the garage have done over £1000 of work to the car (fuel pumps, plugs, brakes all round, two tyres etc) and now with the gearbox issue the owner has had enough and just wants to cut their losses.

The garage have been paid for their work and are not getting a commission on the sale (I would be dealing with the owner directly) and they have also suggested a low offer to start but won't advise just how low to go.

Edited by Rubin215 on Monday 27th July 19:10

[YoungRestorer]

Rubin215 said:

The car doesn't belong to the garage, it belongs to a customer who asked the garage to put it back on the road again and sell it for them.
The car was laid up in 2007 when the owner had his license removed by DVLA for general age/decrepitude issues.
Apparently he didn't sell it originally as he hoped he would get his license back eventually however his wife has finally persuaded him to get rid of it.

So far, the garage have done over £1000 of work to the car (fuel pumps, plugs, brakes all round, two tyres etc) and now with the gearbox issue the owner has had enough and just wants to cut their losses.

The garage have been paid for their work and are not getting a commission on the sale (I would be dealing with the owner directly) and they have also suggested a low offer to start but won't advise just how low to go.

Edited by Rubin215 on Monday 27th July 19:10

It had been laid up for 8 years prior to this? Others will advise, but that suggests a high risk for borkage: Jaguar Steve will know he likelihood of this, but if you low ball at £1500 as others have suggested, it might be worth it. You can get a good one for £3000 I think, so my view would be why run the risk with this one? But then that's part of the fun isn't it

My apologies, I typed my thoughts too quickly, but the extra background will probably be helpful on further advice given