Our cat has just been killed by a dog
Discussion
ali_kat said:
That does not sound familiar to me.Is that the same for england?
toohangry, for your reference, this was the sarcastic post.
toohangry said:
You've paraphrased my post there:
ali_kat said:
Out of control
Your dog is considered dangerously out of control if it:
Do you think the upsetting scenario in this thread falls into either of those? Your dog is considered dangerously out of control if it:
- injures someone
- makes someone worried that it might injure them
james7 said:
ali_kat said:
That does not sound familiar to me.Is that the same for england?
Note that I left out the details from the NI re cats that are in the KC pdf
.gov doesn't go into as much detail https://www.gov.uk/control-dog-public/overview
https://www.thekennelclub.org.uk/media/8277/law.pd...
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/crime/11169...
http://blogs.rspca.org.uk/insights/2014/05/14/how-...
ali_kat said:
It’s against the law to let a dog be dangerously out of control anywhere, such as:
The law applies to all dogs.
Out of control
Your dog is considered dangerously out of control if it:
It isn't necessary for dogs to be leashed at all times. However, dogs must be kept on a lead in designated pedestrian zones and on land where livestock is present. Councils have bye-laws to indicate areas where leashing is required, such as in public parks.
Only 1 of the local 3 parks by me allows Dogs to be off lead, the amount of owners that ignore this by-law (and the ones about picking up after their dogs) is disgraceful!
This is actually rather worrying. My collie's a proper soppy sod and often just wants to say hello. Of course we keep him on the lead and if he looks to approach people (with his tail wagging furiously) we make sure we hold him back to prevent him saying hello too boisterously. However, despite us holding him back and not letting him near people who obviously don't want him near some still recoil even though the dog is nowhere near them, poses no threat as he's firmly on the lead and not aggressive in any way.- in a public place
- in a private place, eg a neighbour’s house or garden
- in the owner’s home
The law applies to all dogs.
Out of control
Your dog is considered dangerously out of control if it:
- injures someone
- makes someone worried that it might injure them
It isn't necessary for dogs to be leashed at all times. However, dogs must be kept on a lead in designated pedestrian zones and on land where livestock is present. Councils have bye-laws to indicate areas where leashing is required, such as in public parks.
Only 1 of the local 3 parks by me allows Dogs to be off lead, the amount of owners that ignore this by-law (and the ones about picking up after their dogs) is disgraceful!
Could those people still complain that they we worried that my dog might injure them and thus I be charged with having a dog dangerously out of control (when it's plainly obvious to the majority of the right thinking world that he isn't)?
Apologies for the thread hijack BTW, and belated condolences to the OP, can't imagine how difficult a time it must be to lose a pet like that.
- that's why I was looking for clarification for under control KFC said:
andyb28 said:
I am not directly having a go at you, but to play devil's advocate a tad here to prompt a sensible discussion about this.
Was your cat on a lead then?
Why would it be the dogs fault, just because it wasn't on a lead?
Its really quite simple if you're at either extreme.Was your cat on a lead then?
Why would it be the dogs fault, just because it wasn't on a lead?
If your cat goes into someone else's garden and gets attacked by a dog, its unfortunate but its 100% the cat owners fault.
If your dog goes into someone else's garden and attacks their cat, its unfortunate but its 100% the dog owners fault.
If it happens in some random neutral location then its going to be situation dependent on who's fault it was.
Mexican cuties said:
We have this all the time, ours is on a lead, dog off lead coming over, owner says oh he's fine with over dogs but ours isn't hence on the lead and then unless we can get him out the way it kicks off, have had dogs off lead jumping up to grab our little man in husbands arms, drives me nuts and don't enjoy walking him by myself
Some people shouldn't have dogs.ali_kat said:
The NI is the only one that I have found that defines 'under control' but if guess it would be a safe bet that it's how the English Courts would see it
Do you not think that it would be helpful when you quote laws at people to mention which country you are quoting the law from? I would think most people would normally assume we are talking about england unless mentioned otherwise.Earlier you had a go at someone else for giving out incorrect information. Now you are either lying or using laws from another country to make your point. How about playing fair and having a sensible discussion rather than one where you twist things to suit your own agenda (whatever that may be!)
You do realise that it's the same law for the whole of the UK? NI & Scotland just have some additional clarifications and slight amendments; as the KC link above clearly demonstrates
That's why I said it's a safe bet that's the clarification that England would follow.
I really don't know why people are entertaining any idea that anyone other than the dog owner is at fault, the dog wasn't under control and entered private property. That's against the law in the whole of the UK.
At the risk of being all 'Daily Mail' but actually just trying to put it over another way for the cat haters/dog lovers - Who would you say was at fault if it had been him that had been in the garden & the dog came in & bitten him?
Edited by ali_kat on Tuesday 28th July 07:42
AlexC1981 said:
toohangry, for your reference, this was the sarcastic post.
It was a genuine question. Ali_kat is saying the dog was 'dangerously out of control (and I'm not arguing that it wasn't 100% in the wrong here) and I gave the definition of that, which she then quoted back to me, so I asked whether she thought the dog's actions met either definition. Not at all sarcastic. toohangry said:
You've paraphrased my post there:
ali_kat said:
Out of control
Your dog is considered dangerously out of control if it:
Do you think the upsetting scenario in this thread falls into either of those? Your dog is considered dangerously out of control if it:
- injures someone
- makes someone worried that it might injure them
ali_kat said:
You do realise that it's the same law for the whole of the UK? NI & Scotland just have some additional clarifications and slight amendments; as the KC link above clearly demonstrates
That's why I said it's a safe bet that's the clarification that England would follow.
If you want to quote laws at least have the decency to use one from the country that is most likely to be relevant.
A safe bet is not the same as you stating it as law though. Rather than stating it as a law and a fact why not just say that its your opinion?
The problem is that some people are seeking advice and clarification on what the law is and you are misleading them, whilst trying to prove a point, for some reason.
ali_kat said:
I really don't know why people are entertaining any idea that anyone other than the dog owner is at fault
I don't see a single person doing that. 
Most seem to be trying to establish what the exact letter of the law is. Also, just to reiterate again, just because we might disagree with you, it doesn't mean we think the dog was in the right for goodness sake. ali_kat said:
the dog wasn't under control and entered private property. That's against the law in the whole of the UK.
100% false. It is not 'against the law' for a dog to enter private property, off the lead. You must be able to see why we're asking you to try and clarify what you mean when you make stuff up like this. james7 said:
The laws are different at least in part. eg in your link it says I need a license and can be fined without one. The dog license was abolished years ago in England.
If you want to quote laws at least have the decency to use one from the country that is most likely to be relevant.
A safe bet is not the same as you stating it as law though. Rather than stating it as a law and a fact why not just say that its your opinion?
The problem is that some people are seeking advice and clarification on what the law is and you are misleading them, whilst trying to prove a point, for some reason.
I didIf you want to quote laws at least have the decency to use one from the country that is most likely to be relevant.
A safe bet is not the same as you stating it as law though. Rather than stating it as a law and a fact why not just say that its your opinion?
The problem is that some people are seeking advice and clarification on what the law is and you are misleading them, whilst trying to prove a point, for some reason.
I then clarified it with the details from only part of the UK that has done so. It's a grey area for the rest of the UK, a Solicitor could & would use the NI clarification
I was trying to help by answering the question, not prove a point!
The only point I have is that the dog shouldn't have been in the garden. I haven't said the dog was dangerously out of control (despite what TooHangry tries to imply) just that it wasn't under control - it should have been leashed
ali_kat said:
I haven't said the dog was dangerously out of control (despite what TooHangry tries to imply) just that it wasn't under control
Woah, back the truck up and stop with the digs at me all the time. Here's what you said
ali_kat said:
toohangry said:
You've paraphrased my post there:
No, I copied & pasted it from Gov.UK, as applied to your post above, I left out the bit relevant to this attack AS IT IS REALLY fali_kat said:
Out of control
Your dog is considered dangerously out of control if it:
Do you think the upsetting scenario in this thread falls into either of those? Your dog is considered dangerously out of control if it:
- injures someone
- makes someone worried that it might injure them
kING OBVIOUS THAT AN OFF LEAD DOG SHOULD NOT BE IN SOMEONE ELSES GARDEN KILLING A CATBut here, let me quote the rest of it for you.
A court could also decide that your dog is dangerously out of control if either of the following apply:
it attacks someone’s animal
the owner of an animal thinks they could be injured if they tried to stop your dog attacking their animal
toohangry said:
You absolutely implied, by using the definitions the way you did, that the dog was dangerously out of control.
No, I quoted the English LAW, simple copy & paste.All I have stated about the case in hand is that the dog should not have been off the lead & in someone else's garden (private property) killing that person's cat.
ali_kat said:
No, I quoted the English LAW, simple copy & paste.
All I have stated about the case in hand is that the dog should not have been off the lead & in someone else's garden (private property) killing that person's cat.
You copy and pasted 'English LAW' (?!) about something you didn't think the dog was doing? You must see why I've pulled you up on this and what it absolutely implies!! All I have stated about the case in hand is that the dog should not have been off the lead & in someone else's garden (private property) killing that person's cat.
Not one single person is disagreeing with your second statement for Christ's sake! We're all on the same page here - we're trying to establish what the actual law is, emotions aside, and just saying things that aren't true or relevant is not helping one iota.
toohangry said:
You absolutely implied, by using the definitions the way you did, that the dog was dangerously out of control.
A dog which attacks something whilst off lead in a public place is quite likely to be deemed as "out of control". A dog which kills a cat in a public place is highly likely to be deemed out of control, whether on lead or not.
However, a dog off lead that does anything wrong, the general approach is that it is out of control. If it were in control it would not attack/do what it did.
I've not looked at this area of law for a while now, so my recollection may be out of date as to the application.
toohangry said:
You copy and pasted 'English LAW' (?!) about something you didn't think the dog was doing? You must see why I've pulled you up on this and what it absolutely implies!!
Well, actually I c&p the UK Law and then tried to clarify it for you (just after you ‘bowed out’) with the details from the NI. But seemingly that’s not good enough for James7 as apparently only the law that applies to JUST England, not the whole of UK is applicable here, never mind the fact that this is an international forum, which is why I specified English Law to you just (and you wonder why I get frustrated )toohangry said:
Not one single person is disagreeing with your second statement for Christ's sake!
toohangry said:
ali_kat said:
Out of control
Your dog is considered dangerously out of control if it:
Do you think the upsetting scenario in this thread falls into either of those? Your dog is considered dangerously out of control if it:
- injures someone
- makes someone worried that it might injure them
toohangry said:
we're trying to establish what the actual law is, emotions aside, and just saying things that aren't true or relevant is not helping one iota.
Yes, and I am just trying to help you with that, as the Law as it is written is ridiculous - grey & open to interpretation. As I said to another poster last night, it’s very wishy washy & full of holes. Just to remind you, you’d quoted Section 3 of the Dangerous Dogs Act 1991, so I cut & pasted the Laws of the UK, as the DD Act has been superseded slightly by the Law that came into force on 20/10/14.
There are particular parts of that law specifically for the NI that apply to cats, but as that isn’t applicable to the whole of the UK, I didn’t bother ‘muddying the waters’ with that to answer your question in regards to the cat in the park, as it would not be appliable in your scenario.
Yes, I get emotional – I am a blonde, female animal lover (all of them, not just the fluffy ones
) what do you expect? However, I haven’t said anything that isn’t true and what I have said is relevant. ali_kat said:
By 'lead free zone' I mean any such appropriate wording that the Government/Local Council/Other authoritive body deem appropriate to use for a desginated area or public place where dogs do not have to be ‘under control’ (for clarity - a dog is considered ‘under control’ if it is on a lead held by someone able to control the dog. For example, a large dog would not be under control if its lead was held by a child who would be unable to restrain the dog if it strained against the lead.
I don’t state that this was part of the Law, it was clearly put as a clarification. James7 asked for proof of that and I provided him with the link to the NI.Gov., which is the only place that gives any indication as to what ‘under control’ means.HTH – I’m off to do some work, talk later
Edited as I found a typo!
Edited by ali_kat on Tuesday 28th July 12:14
" But seemingly that’s not good enough for James7 as apparently only the law that applies to JUST England, not the whole of UK is applicable here, never mind the fact that this is an international forum, which is why I specified English Law to you just (and you wonder why I get frustrated laugh )"
Not the law that applies to "just" England but the law that applies to England as that is where the incident took place (Cheshire). If they are the same then thats fine however I suspect they are not or we would all need dog licences too amongst other things. If you cant find clarification of what "under control" means in England then maybe thats something we should be discussing/addressing.
"Yes, and I am just trying to help you with that, as the Law as it is written is ridiculous - grey & open to interpretation. As I said to another poster last night, it’s very wishy washy & full of holes. "
Speculating on what the law is is not helping though. Stating something as fact and as applying to England when, at least in part, it clearly does not apply.
"I don’t state that this was part of the Law, it was clearly put as a clarification. James7 asked for proof of that and I provided him with the link to the NI.Gov., which is the only place that gives any indication as to what ‘under control’ means."
Perhaps in English law there is no definition and it is open to each individual case to be decided upon. Perhaps not. But assuming that all the laws in differing countries apply to others is not a good move imo. eg look at the house buying laws in Scotland. Very different to England but still within the uk.
If we knew what the law actually was then we could discuss whether it needs altering or changing or if its good enough.
The rules in England may be much better than in NI, they may be worse, they may be the same. Who knows
Not the law that applies to "just" England but the law that applies to England as that is where the incident took place (Cheshire). If they are the same then thats fine however I suspect they are not or we would all need dog licences too amongst other things. If you cant find clarification of what "under control" means in England then maybe thats something we should be discussing/addressing.
"Yes, and I am just trying to help you with that, as the Law as it is written is ridiculous - grey & open to interpretation. As I said to another poster last night, it’s very wishy washy & full of holes. "
Speculating on what the law is is not helping though. Stating something as fact and as applying to England when, at least in part, it clearly does not apply.
"I don’t state that this was part of the Law, it was clearly put as a clarification. James7 asked for proof of that and I provided him with the link to the NI.Gov., which is the only place that gives any indication as to what ‘under control’ means."
Perhaps in English law there is no definition and it is open to each individual case to be decided upon. Perhaps not. But assuming that all the laws in differing countries apply to others is not a good move imo. eg look at the house buying laws in Scotland. Very different to England but still within the uk.
If we knew what the law actually was then we could discuss whether it needs altering or changing or if its good enough.
The rules in England may be much better than in NI, they may be worse, they may be the same. Who knows
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