Pistonheads vehicles you don't "get"
Discussion
FiF said:
Off topic. One thing I don't get is this apparent hate for large vehicles whatever you want to call them, SUV, 4*4 whatever. It's on this thread and a number of others.
Re the above argument on increased visibility. Drive regularly in areas with plentiful drystone walls or hedges or crops right up to the road verge and you'll soon see the point that the particular poster is trying to make.
Just let people get on with what they want to drive without all the venom. If, say, I want to drive a motor home based on a Unimog, as long as it's legal, driven with care and not tramping across your front garden then frankly it's none of anyone else's business.
Hate is a bit of a strong word, but it's easy to understand why so many PHers (me included), listed 4x4s/SUVs as cars they don't 'get'. I can understand why people want most cars: Micras, Phaetons, Mondeos, Mustangs, Elises, Boxsters, 911s, Espaces etc; but despite people's much appreciated efforts, I don't understand why most people would want a 4x4/SUV over an equivalent car. They're more than welcome to, but yes, I don't get it.Re the above argument on increased visibility. Drive regularly in areas with plentiful drystone walls or hedges or crops right up to the road verge and you'll soon see the point that the particular poster is trying to make.
Just let people get on with what they want to drive without all the venom. If, say, I want to drive a motor home based on a Unimog, as long as it's legal, driven with care and not tramping across your front garden then frankly it's none of anyone else's business.
If you need to tow a very heavy load, live in an area thick with snow for months each year, or need to drive properly off road regularly, then I can totally get it, but for people like me living in the midlands/south who don't tow more than 1.5 tonnes, I just fail to see it. An equivalent car (e.g. 5 series vs an X5 or F Type vs a Range Rover) is always going to cost less to run, handle better, go faster (cornering, acceleration and braking), have a more usable horizontal rather than vertical boot space, have suspension better tuned for the road, have tyres more suitable for the road (although they can be changed of course), have a more accessible roof rack, be easier to park, cheaper/easier to wash each week, cheaper to take on the Eurotunnel, have a better driving position etc. Thanks to the wonders of PH I can understand why people love all sorts of cars when I didn't understand the love before I joined PH, but the arguments for 4x4s I regularly read (and really try to understand!) just seem totally empty and I simply don't understand it. There's no hate there at all, particularly given that I do tow a fair weight and I do live in the countryside amongst roads that get covered in snow for a couple of weeks a year; I'd rather have a 4x4 than my 3 series for a few days and weeks of the year, but there are 52 weeks in the year, so on balance I'm better off with a car. For people living in urban or semi-urban settings who don't tow, I really don't understand it. I like not understanding things though, it's why I studied and worked in science for years
I will continue to try.FastRich said:
Hungrymc said:
What cars are you advocating then? I'll probably be able to come up with an equally crap way of explaining how your choice is selfish.
And a tip, follow at a safe distance and don't feel you have to follow anything so closely that your visibility compromises your safety.
And a tip, follow at a safe distance and don't feel you have to follow anything so closely that your visibility compromises your safety.
i'm just being needlessly provocative, no venom!
Maybe the new RR will come with a Samsung on the rear door?
RobM77 said:
Hate is a bit of a strong word, but it's easy to understand why so many PHers (me included), listed 4x4s/SUVs as cars they don't 'get'. I can understand why people want most cars: Micras, Phaetons, Mondeos, Mustangs, Elises, Boxsters, 911s, Espaces etc; but despite people's much appreciated efforts, I don't understand why most people would want a 4x4/SUV over an equivalent car. They're more than welcome to, but yes, I don't get it.
If you need to tow a very heavy load, live in an area thick with snow for months each year, or need to drive properly off road regularly, then I can totally get it, but for people like me living in the midlands/south who don't tow more than 1.5 tonnes, I just fail to see it. An equivalent car (e.g. 5 series vs an X5 or F Type vs a Range Rover) is always going to cost less to run, handle better, go faster (cornering, acceleration and braking), have a more usable horizontal rather than vertical boot space, have suspension better tuned for the road, have tyres more suitable for the road (although they can be changed of course), have a more accessible roof rack, be easier to park, cheaper/easier to wash each week, cheaper to take on the Eurotunnel, have a better driving position etc. Thanks to the wonders of PH I can understand why people love all sorts of cars when I didn't understand the love before I joined PH, but the arguments for 4x4s I regularly read (and really try to understand!) just seem totally empty and I simply don't understand it. There's no hate there at all, particularly given that I do tow a fair weight and I do live in the countryside amongst roads that get covered in snow for a couple of weeks a year; I'd rather have a 4x4 than my 3 series for a few days and weeks of the year, but there are 52 weeks in the year, so on balance I'm better off with a car. For people living in urban or semi-urban settings who don't tow, I really don't understand it. I like not understanding things though, it's why I studied and worked in science for years I will continue to try.
Funny thing is, I couldn't agree more with you and all your points here!! 4x4's are a mostly unnecesary "lifestyle choice" even though in most scenarios (as you point out) they don't really help "lifestyle" - big cumbersome things that they are.If you need to tow a very heavy load, live in an area thick with snow for months each year, or need to drive properly off road regularly, then I can totally get it, but for people like me living in the midlands/south who don't tow more than 1.5 tonnes, I just fail to see it. An equivalent car (e.g. 5 series vs an X5 or F Type vs a Range Rover) is always going to cost less to run, handle better, go faster (cornering, acceleration and braking), have a more usable horizontal rather than vertical boot space, have suspension better tuned for the road, have tyres more suitable for the road (although they can be changed of course), have a more accessible roof rack, be easier to park, cheaper/easier to wash each week, cheaper to take on the Eurotunnel, have a better driving position etc. Thanks to the wonders of PH I can understand why people love all sorts of cars when I didn't understand the love before I joined PH, but the arguments for 4x4s I regularly read (and really try to understand!) just seem totally empty and I simply don't understand it. There's no hate there at all, particularly given that I do tow a fair weight and I do live in the countryside amongst roads that get covered in snow for a couple of weeks a year; I'd rather have a 4x4 than my 3 series for a few days and weeks of the year, but there are 52 weeks in the year, so on balance I'm better off with a car. For people living in urban or semi-urban settings who don't tow, I really don't understand it. I like not understanding things though, it's why I studied and worked in science for years
I will continue to try.But, have you driven one and spent time in one? I recommend you don't try it - you'll be hooked and wonder why you spent so many years doing the things you do with the cars you do - it won't take you long to complete the man maths and be in front of a salesman with your chequebook!! You have been warned!!
funny thing is, the one car not listed in my garage is a 4x4. OK, it's a crossover Rav4 and not to be mentioned in the same breath as an RR or Cayenne. Not worth listing as it's not a PH car linking back to the thread title. But i do see the attraction, it's 'easy'. Crossovers have hard-ish suspension as they're trying to be cars, i wish mine had softer springs as i have other cars for driving pleasure. That's where an RR comes in, a gentlemen's cruiser in town or country. i can see the appeal.
Just a shame they released the previous Sport model to take it all Burberry.
Just a shame they released the previous Sport model to take it all Burberry.
FastRich said:
Funny thing is, I couldn't agree more with you and all your points here!! 4x4's are a mostly unnecesary "lifestyle choice" even though in most scenarios (as you point out) they don't really help "lifestyle" - big cumbersome things that they are.
But, have you driven one and spent time in one? I recommend you don't try it - you'll be hooked and wonder why you spent so many years doing the things you do with the cars you do - it won't take you long to complete the man maths and be in front of a salesman with your chequebook!! You have been warned!!
Yes, a number of years ago I bought an E46 330ci full of problems, and after two return visits to the dealer I bought it from, the manager lent me his specced up X5 for a couple of weeks whilst they sorted everything, so I got to use it in my daily commute, fun time etc. Coincidentally, that week I was also invited on an off roading thing where I got to try the BMW X range on an off road course with rivers, huge banks etc. I was very impressed in engineering terms by what they were all capable of, but no, I never really got it I'm afraid for road use. I do think they're marvellous if you go off road though - I was stunned at how capable they were off road whilst retaining an ok driving experience on road, but if I was driving 95% on the road? Nope - sorry, I just don't understand But, have you driven one and spent time in one? I recommend you don't try it - you'll be hooked and wonder why you spent so many years doing the things you do with the cars you do - it won't take you long to complete the man maths and be in front of a salesman with your chequebook!! You have been warned!!
I am going to get pages and pages of abuse here. But here goes...
Mark 1 Escorts and Capris. I remember these things from the 70s/80s and far from being 'cool' I thought they were damn oily, clapped out rust buckets that were more welded in patched up panels than cars, always had that mastic black coat over the bottom half as the doors were always rusted out and people were trying to stop the onslaught of rust. Had plates over their front shocks as they used to bang out and a bloody awful engine that pissed oil everywhere.
The Crapi as I remember it being nicknamed at the time had zero space in the rear and required you to drive around with a boot of bricks just to keep the bloody thing from spinning out.
Only thing I will say were good about them was the smooth gearbox.
Never had and never will find the fascination for these cars.
Reminds me too much of the "Chopper". People have misty views of them and now they have the money are trying to re-kindle their youth pushing prices way beyond their real value.
Mark 1 Escorts and Capris. I remember these things from the 70s/80s and far from being 'cool' I thought they were damn oily, clapped out rust buckets that were more welded in patched up panels than cars, always had that mastic black coat over the bottom half as the doors were always rusted out and people were trying to stop the onslaught of rust. Had plates over their front shocks as they used to bang out and a bloody awful engine that pissed oil everywhere.
The Crapi as I remember it being nicknamed at the time had zero space in the rear and required you to drive around with a boot of bricks just to keep the bloody thing from spinning out.
Only thing I will say were good about them was the smooth gearbox.
Never had and never will find the fascination for these cars.
Reminds me too much of the "Chopper". People have misty views of them and now they have the money are trying to re-kindle their youth pushing prices way beyond their real value.
The 997. A friend spent ages finding a perfect 997 C2 in manual with all the right options then spent a fortune having a specialist sort ever little niggle. I've driven it on road and track. To date its the only car that's prompted me to say "no thanks" when offered the keys for a second session on track. The whole experience of it brings to mind operating a particularly well made fax/photocopier/scanner. It was the dullest thing I've ever driven. Why people pay money for the things will remain an unfathomable mystery to me.
yonex said:
There are no w
es. Just a 6 year old who is being taught that a big petrol engine is the right choice and the NissoHondaVolVW miserable diesel option is for people who have made the worst possible choice.
Come the big call up I can't imagine the annoyance of having to wonder why I wasted my time driving a st car, I don't plan to wonder.
I guess we're all different.
What driving a miserable VAG diesel did for me was prompt me to buy a Clio 172 and start doing trackdays, couldn't live with the diesel on it's own.es. Just a 6 year old who is being taught that a big petrol engine is the right choice and the NissoHondaVolVW miserable diesel option is for people who have made the worst possible choice. Come the big call up I can't imagine the annoyance of having to wonder why I wasted my time driving a s
t car, I don't plan to wonder.I guess we're all different.
When it goes back in July it will be my first and last diesel car - never again.
jnoiles said:
The 997. A friend spent ages finding a perfect 997 C2 in manual with all the right options then spent a fortune having a specialist sort ever little niggle. I've driven it on road and track. To date its the only car that's prompted me to say "no thanks" when offered the keys for a second session on track. The whole experience of it brings to mind operating a particularly well made fax/photocopier/scanner. It was the dullest thing I've ever driven. Why people pay money for the things will remain an unfathomable mystery to me.
I must admit, I can see where you're coming from on that one. I spent ages saving for a Cayman S and have always loved Porsche. I have a 917 poster in my study, I have the Paul Freré book on 911s and I grew up in the Derek Bell 956 era. I love the styling and I love the sound of the Porsche flat six, both air and water cooled varieties. However, when my bank balance reached the right level and the time came to drive a Cayman S I was extremely disappointed. This ran so contrary to what people say about them that I booked in for another test drive in a different Cayman S a few weeks later but had exactly the same experience. The performance and handling were both there, the build quality too and the overal desirability in terms of styling etc, but the whole driving experience was just completely flat - almost Audi like if I dare say such a thing. I wasn't expecting Lotus levels of interaction, but I was expecting something somewhere on the sporty spectrum.RobM77 said:
I must admit, I can see where you're coming from on that one. I spent ages saving for a Cayman S and have always loved Porsche. I have a 917 poster in my study, I have the Paul Freré book on 911s and I grew up in the Derek Bell 956 era. I love the styling and I love the sound of the Porsche flat six, both air and water cooled varieties. However, when my bank balance reached the right level and the time came to drive a Cayman S I was extremely disappointed. This ran so contrary to what people say about them that I booked in for another test drive in a different Cayman S a few weeks later but had exactly the same experience. The performance and handling were both there, the build quality too and the overal desirability in terms of styling etc, but the whole driving experience was just completely flat - almost Audi like if I dare say such a thing. I wasn't expecting Lotus levels of interaction, but I was expecting something somewhere on the sporty spectrum.
As a fan of all-things contrary, I get quite disappointed with Pistonheads where any attempt to make a new sportscar is armchair reviewed against a Porsche and comes out inferior.Alfa 4C - inferior
F-Type - inferior
You name it, the PH massive starts whining on about Porsche's high quality plastic interior dominating over all and Porsche's all-fun-engineered-out dynamics dominating just as much.
People should learn to think for themselves, or at least recognise that if they prefer such sanitised driving, then they're probably a bit on the soft side for sports cars.
RobM77 said:
I spent ages saving for a Cayman S and have always loved Porsche.
Reminds me of my first Porsche - a Boxster S.Bought it when I lived in Central London, and it was perfectly fine in town. Really looked forward to taking it out of town onto some country roads, but discovered that actually although it was massively competent it wasn't really much fun. It had such a good chassis, such a lot of mechanical grip and relatively little power (250ish bhp IIRC) that there just wasn't much you could do with it other than go round corners quite fast but without drama.
Output Flange said:
RobM77 said:
I spent ages saving for a Cayman S and have always loved Porsche.
Reminds me of my first Porsche - a Boxster S.Bought it when I lived in Central London, and it was perfectly fine in town. Really looked forward to taking it out of town onto some country roads, but discovered that actually although it was massively competent it wasn't really much fun. It had such a good chassis, such a lot of mechanical grip and relatively little power (250ish bhp IIRC) that there just wasn't much you could do with it other than go round corners quite fast but without drama.
yonex said:
Nickbrapp said:
4 Doors more wes
There are no weses. Just a 6 year old who is being taught that a big petrol engine is the right choice and the NissoHondaVolVW miserable diesel option is for people who have made the worst possible choice. Come the big call up I can't imagine the annoyance of having to wonder why I wasted my time driving a s
t car, I don't plan to wonder.I guess we're all different.
Nickbrapp said:
yonex said:
Nickbrapp said:
4 Doors more wes
There are no weses. Just a 6 year old who is being taught that a big petrol engine is the right choice and the NissoHondaVolVW miserable diesel option is for people who have made the worst possible choice. Come the big call up I can't imagine the annoyance of having to wonder why I wasted my time driving a s
t car, I don't plan to wonder.I guess we're all different.
Nickbrapp said:
So does that make the golf boring or just a defered 911 untill im mortage free in 3.5 years and can afford to pull the trigger on a fantastic lease deal.
So you're saving money now and paying down secured debt at all time low rates on an appreciating asset and then want to take out an unsecured loan on a depreciating asset to buy a 911.Whatever your choice of car - this is financial madness!
You forgot the OTHER golden rule of PH.
Rule #1: don't buy a fancy car on the never-never.
I don't necessarily agree with that rule but when you have access to cheaper debt (which a mortgage undoubtedly is) then you shouldn't throw money away on unnecessary interest.
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