2 young guys killed in Austrian Alps racing. Came off a clif

2 young guys killed in Austrian Alps racing. Came off a clif

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Discussion

Monkeylegend

26,226 posts

230 months

Tuesday 28th July 2015
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Looking at some of thee pictures posted it looks like they went straight through the Armco without braking hard, so maybe arrived at the corner without time to do anything except fly off the road.

beanbag

7,346 posts

240 months

Tuesday 28th July 2015
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I know exactly where they came off. I've been up and down that road a fair number of times and even raced up it on a Buell XB12S.

The corners are very deceiving and start shallow and become very sharp. I was almost caught out myself, luckily just rolling into an inside corner into a shallow ditch, but had it been an outside corner, the outcome could have been very different. They can really catch you out without a moments notice.

My condolences to the families.

bockaaarck

393 posts

167 months

Tuesday 28th July 2015
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Interesting article from the Austrian news website salzburg.orf.at. Quoting former Austrian Olympic cyclist Peter Muckenhuber, who was cycling on the pass at the time

http://translate.google.co.uk/translate?hl=en&...

Hub

6,413 posts

197 months

Tuesday 28th July 2015
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Those timber barriers - just for show rather than any safety benefit. eek

The Don of Croy said:
Sad event. Seeing the Facebook account I clicked on the album and watched another blog apparently from Wednesday last week. The two chaps talk of their driving and not 'tagging the footage' so Mum won't see it...the video ends with them commenting 'racing, racing, racing...'.

Make of that what you will. Hard for their families though.
Yes, that's what I was talking about. Plus another where he speaks of having an incident about a day before, understeering into something and causing a bit of damage.


FurtiveFreddy

8,577 posts

236 months

Tuesday 28th July 2015
quotequote all
Another thought to ponder on...

I'd say most drivers are instinctively cautious when driving a downhill road, particularly one like this. There's always going to be a small nagging voice in the back of your head saying "What if your brakes fail? What if you brake a bit too late? What if you carry a bit too much speed into that hairpin? etc."

But uphill, that voice might say "You accelerate slower uphill, so give it some! You can brake a bit later! You've got more margin for error, so go for it!"

We know they had already passed that corner on the first run they did down the hill. Going the other way, they could have mis-judged it or just forgotten how blind/tight it was coming the other way.

There are plenty of theories being put forward and we don't yet know (and may never know) which it was, but looking at the layout and nature of the road and the relatively little protection the wooden barriers offered, I'm surprised this hasn't happened before there.

Petrol Only

1,592 posts

174 months

Tuesday 28th July 2015
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[redacted]

aeropilot

34,299 posts

226 months

Tuesday 28th July 2015
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Hub said:
Yes, that's what I was talking about. Plus another where he speaks of having an incident about a day before, understeering into something and causing a bit of damage.
Looking at the 7.40 photo of the whole in the barrier.....and the fact that from that Austrian article (translation issues not withstanding) it appears the Leon was 'chasing' the Porker, I'd venture to speculate, given his social media postings, he arrived at that corner waaaaay too quickly and just understeered straight through the barrier. Maybe he did more damage to the car than he thought the day before and something eventually broke as a result just at the wrong time....?
As said, maybe we'll never know for sure, but, unfortunately whichever way you look at it, their media posting history very much shows an 'accident waiting to happen'.
Awful for those they left behind, especially for the family of the guy the driver took with him.

LaurasOtherHalf

21,429 posts

195 months

Tuesday 28th July 2015
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From the testimony of the cyclist, it would appear the porsche driver was ahead on the road which would back up his claim of not knowing anything about the accident until putting 2 & 2 together when the seat didn't meet up later on and seeing the police helicopter.

The cyclist did however report a distance of only 20m between the cars though you'd imagine this was at a lower level than where the accident took place.

bockaaarck

393 posts

167 months

Tuesday 28th July 2015
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aeropilot said:
...Awful for those they left behind, especially for the family of the guy the driver took with him.
Indeed, a sad waste of young life

heebeegeetee

28,591 posts

247 months

Tuesday 28th July 2015
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LaurasOtherHalf said:
Why do forum threads always descend into some bunch of pricks segueing about the correct definition of a word or phrase? Truly bizarre behaviour.
Because it is highly objectionable to accuse somebody of doing something they are not, when that something that is highly illegal.

Possibly everybody has driven too fast at some point, and 3-points and a fine is commonplace.

But racing is another ball game altogether, and to participate in or indeed to organise an illegal race would/should see people in *very* serious trouble indeed. For myself I was once headed a local branch of a car club and attended meetings of the national committee of that car club, I helped organise car rallies (including competitive ones) and to accuse me of engaging in an illegal race would be a serious matter, would/should see me thrown off said committees and positions and could bring my club into serious disrepute. It's a serious matter.

As a car enthusiast I couldn't count how many times I've driven in company with other car enthusiasts at higher speeds. But we're NOT racing.

People on Pistonheads organise get-togethers, I've done so my self, we might go on a hoon, we might have a group of sporting cars driving really quite quickly. But are we racing? No we fking are not, and I would object very strongly indeed to any insinuation whatsover that we were.

Are we now seriously saying that we've never heard of two cars out for high speed run together? It's absolutely ridiculous to suggest that people are "racing". It's just thick, imo.

hornetrider

63,161 posts

204 months

Tuesday 28th July 2015
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LaurasOtherHalf said:
From the testimony of the cyclist, it would appear the porsche driver was ahead on the road which would back up his claim of not knowing anything about the accident until putting 2 & 2 together when the seat didn't meet up later on and seeing the police helicopter.

The cyclist did however report a distance of only 20m between the cars though you'd imagine this was at a lower level than where the accident took place.
Indeed, the testimony of the cyclist sheds further light.

Perhaps further up the mountain the porker had opened a gap and the Leon driver was pushing the limits in order to keep up. Would possibly explain why the porker driver knew nothing of the incident itself.

TTmonkey

20,911 posts

246 months

Tuesday 28th July 2015
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GOOGLE TRANSLATE options on words:

handlebars
Lenker, Lenkstange
driver
Treiber, Fahrer, Autofahrer, Führer, Kutscher, Lenker
steering gear
Lenker

TTmonkey

20,911 posts

246 months

Tuesday 28th July 2015
quotequote all
aeropilot said:
Hub said:
Yes, that's what I was talking about. Plus another where he speaks of having an incident about a day before, understeering into something and causing a bit of damage.
Looking at the 7.40 photo of the whole in the barrier.....and the fact that from that Austrian article (translation issues not withstanding) it appears the Leon was 'chasing' the Porker, I'd venture to speculate, given his social media postings, he arrived at that corner waaaaay too quickly and just understeered straight through the barrier. Maybe he did more damage to the car than he thought the day before and something eventually broke as a result just at the wrong time....?
As said, maybe we'll never know for sure, but, unfortunately whichever way you look at it, their media posting history very much shows an 'accident waiting to happen'.
Awful for those they left behind, especially for the family of the guy the driver took with him.
I think we do know now though don't we....? This isn't a brake failure. This is the driver not realising he's approaching a sharp left bend, trying to keep up with the Porsche.....

So the RWD/rear/mid engine sport car takes the fast left hander without falling off the mountain side....

but the highly modified over powered front engine/FWD family hatchback ploughs a straight line off the cliff....


Basic driving physics isn't it?

Slow in - fast out. OK.


DonkeyApple

54,923 posts

168 months

Tuesday 28th July 2015
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heebeegeetee said:
plenty said:
DonkeyApple said:
hornetrider said:
Does it? Or were they just going back up for another go?

I know when I've been over there on the bike I've gone back for a second crack at the hill. Just for another go like. Obviously the rides were spirited and judging by these guys their driving was spirited too. But it's not necessarily racing.
Racing doesn't need to involve another car. While we all do well to recognise that the DM is a sensationalist, dishonest, manipulative, low rent hate mag for the thick and angry the above poster is arguably correct.

Exceeding the speed limits is illegal and one can have a race with oneself. For example, if I am on a track day or the Ring etc I never race other cars but I am certainly racing against other metrics/benchmarks.
Sorry, that makes no sense at all. How do you define racing? Is every spirited drive a race? Is a drive where the speed limit is exceeded automatically considered a race? Or are you suggesting that the late driver and passenger were timing themselves against a benchmark?
I think we can now safely say that in today's dumbed down world, driving fast is now classified as 'racing'.

Dear god. rolleyes
You're certainly proving a point about dumbing down. biggrin

pork911

7,087 posts

182 months

Tuesday 28th July 2015
quotequote all
heebeegeetee said:
Because it is highly objectionable to accuse somebody of doing something they are not, when that something that is highly illegal.

Possibly everybody has driven too fast at some point, and 3-points and a fine is commonplace.

But racing is another ball game altogether, and to participate in or indeed to organise an illegal race would/should see people in *very* serious trouble indeed. For myself I was once headed a local branch of a car club and attended meetings of the national committee of that car club, I helped organise car rallies (including competitive ones) and to accuse me of engaging in an illegal race would be a serious matter, would/should see me thrown off said committees and positions and could bring my club into serious disrepute. It's a serious matter.

As a car enthusiast I couldn't count how many times I've driven in company with other car enthusiasts at higher speeds. But we're NOT racing.

People on Pistonheads organise get-togethers, I've done so my self, we might go on a hoon, we might have a group of sporting cars driving really quite quickly. But are we racing? No we fking are not, and I would object very strongly indeed to any insinuation whatsover that we were.

Are we now seriously saying that we've never heard of two cars out for high speed run together? It's absolutely ridiculous to suggest that people are "racing". It's just thick, imo.
what crucial element for racing do you think is missing in your examples?

TTmonkey

20,911 posts

246 months

Tuesday 28th July 2015
quotequote all
Its interesting from the panorama photo at 7.40 - only a very small section of the crash barrier is missing. I think this shows that the car went off nose first, not broadside. I'd expect more barrier to be damaged if the car had skidded or broadsided the barrier. But it looks like it went 'straight' over.

I understand from reports that there were no skid marks at all.....

I hit a crash barrier at approx. 70+mph on a modified FWD car with 330mm brembos. The car had ABS too. The tarmac surface showed broken skid marks into the barrier - looked like parallel dashes on the tarmac - from where I had stamped on the brakes. They were much much lighter than the skid marks you get from non ABS cars though - but they were there. I also managed to steer the car into the barrier slightly rather than taking it nose first. Fortunately it wasn't some sodden, rotten, wooden affair but proper Armco.

I wouldn't be surprised to hear that they hadn't actually braked much before the corner. I think he may have mistaken the corner for a much faster one, with the RWD Porshce taking it far faster than the Leon was capable of.

delta0

2,334 posts

105 months

Tuesday 28th July 2015
quotequote all
TTmonkey said:
I think we do know now though don't we....? This isn't a brake failure. This is the driver not realising he's approaching a sharp left bend, trying to keep up with the Porsche.....

So the RWD/rear/mid engine sport car takes the fast left hander without falling off the mountain side....

but the highly modified over powered front engine/FWD family hatchback ploughs a straight line off the cliff....


Basic driving physics isn't it?

Slow in - fast out. OK.
I doubt they were on the power going around the corner so probably more a case of carrying too much speed into the corner. It would have come down to tyres and aero at this point and if you are going too fast nothing will save you.

Edited by delta0 on Tuesday 28th July 12:32


Edited by delta0 on Tuesday 28th July 12:32

PapaJohns

1,064 posts

152 months

Tuesday 28th July 2015
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Racing racing racing!

https://www.facebook.com/joshrobinson.jr/videos/vo...

And there is/was more footage of them racing that they never got to upload. Racing or not though they were just a couple of youngs lads out having a good time ,fellow enthusiasts

Death by misadventure.

R.I.P

FurtiveFreddy

8,577 posts

236 months

Tuesday 28th July 2015
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One of the last photos they took. Porsche following...


JuniorD

8,616 posts

222 months

Tuesday 28th July 2015
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If those guys had already been up the road once previously, would they not have known that the bend was practically 90degrees and the drop precarious? Granted it might have been shrouded in low cloud.