Term time school holiday fines. Self employed exemption?

Term time school holiday fines. Self employed exemption?

Author
Discussion

scdan4

Original Poster:

1,299 posts

159 months

Saturday 25th July 2015
quotequote all
Some time ago, when these fines came in I looked into it in some depth (as it is very relevant to us) and I am sure that I discovered a suggested exemption in the guidelines along the line of...

If you employ people with children, who have to holiday in the school holiday times (to avoid the fines) then as the employer you had an exemption as you were unable to holiday in the school holidays, because you were covering your staffs holidays in the holidays.


But now I can't find hide nor hair of it on the internet and I am beginning to think I may have dreamt it. Nothing on the dot gov website (but can't find any guidance notes there at all) and most of my googling is a sea of media stories which are not relevant.

Can anyone shed any light?

Thanks

Dan

SystemParanoia

14,343 posts

197 months

Saturday 25th July 2015
quotequote all
just tell the school the kids were ill

scdan4

Original Poster:

1,299 posts

159 months

Saturday 25th July 2015
quotequote all
Would rather play it straight if we can.

We're a seasonal business at our busiest in the summer school hols. Most (not all) of our employees have school age kids and of course they have first dibs on holiday. Getting away in summer, easter or any of the associated half terms just won't be possible. Our daughter is just starting in school this sept, so we may have 14 years of this.

It is also a local school, a small community and my daughter has an exceedingly loud mouth. I suspect we would be rumbled very quickly!

SystemParanoia

14,343 posts

197 months

Saturday 25th July 2015
quotequote all
while they were sick, you took them away to make them feel better

its not "right" or "straight" but meh.. money in your pocket is better than money in UKPLC's

surveyor

17,768 posts

183 months

Saturday 25th July 2015
quotequote all
Our daughters school won't authorise school term holidays (they did for us, but only because we were getting married while there).

They do not however issue the fines. If they did I'd just view them as a worthwhile 'charge' rather than a fine.

951TSE

600 posts

156 months

Saturday 25th July 2015
quotequote all
Your profile suggests you're in Wiltshire. The place to look is the local authority website. this page:

http://www.wiltshire.gov.uk/schoolseducationandlea...

seems to give the guidelines. The only exemptions seem to be either a death in the family or

"service personnel and other employees who cannot take leave outside term time at any point in the academic year." Which may be what you were thinking of? I guess you'd have to plead your case to the LEA as to whether that clause applies to your particular circumstances.

scdan4

Original Poster:

1,299 posts

159 months

Saturday 25th July 2015
quotequote all
^ ^

Thats the badger, thank you. smile

I did't remember the service personnel bit though, but we definitely fit the unable to take "leave" part of the statement.

Hopefully it will sway our "case" though.

ClaphamGT3

11,269 posts

242 months

Saturday 25th July 2015
quotequote all
Why can't you holiday at Christmas or arrange cover at one of the other times of school holidays? Your posts state you have staff, so why can you not delegate for a week or two?

Sorry OP but, from your posts, the need doesn't sound compelling.

Sheepshanks

32,530 posts

118 months

Saturday 25th July 2015
quotequote all
scdan4 said:
I did't remember the service personnel bit though, but we definitely fit the unable to take "leave" part of the statement.
Service personnel have special status but I've never seen it suggested that self-employed people, or more "ordinary" employees, could get an exemption.

Schools are being forced to crack down on this as they're now getting penalised for it during Ofsted inspections. The bar is really high - from memory it's 96%. In some (most, I think, now) areas if they drop a grade the Head gets sacked.

coetzeeh

2,641 posts

235 months

Sunday 26th July 2015
quotequote all
Our eldest is 7, and on the few occasions we took him out of school for an early start to holidays we were upfront and notified the school. They refused to authorise the absence but never fined, taking a pretty pragmatic view.

brickwall

5,192 posts

209 months

Sunday 26th July 2015
quotequote all
Whilst I have full sympathy with the difficulties of seasonal businesses, I'm a bit surprised by the attitudes on here.

School is important. Really important.

Typically a child might be expected to miss 1-2% of lessons each year for unavoidable reasons (illness, other school commitments). If you take a week's holiday in term-time, that is immediately another ~2.8%. These kinds of numbers do have an impact on learning.

jonamv8

3,145 posts

165 months

Sunday 26th July 2015
quotequote all
brickwall said:
Whilst I have full sympathy with the difficulties of seasonal businesses, I'm a bit surprised by the attitudes on here.

School is important. Really important.

Typically a child might be expected to miss 1-2% of lessons each year for unavoidable reasons (illness, other school commitments). If you take a week's holiday in term-time, that is immediately another ~2.8%. These kinds of numbers do have an impact on learning.
Disagree completely.

I had loads of time off during term time when schools werent like concentration camps. Learnt far more in a week away with my parents than at school. New cultures, new languages, visiting historical places of importance and one and one time with parents explaining things as opposed to be one of 30 in a class getting the boring curriculum shoved down my throat.

Sheepshanks

32,530 posts

118 months

Sunday 26th July 2015
quotequote all
jonamv8 said:
Learnt far more in a week away with my parents than at school. New cultures, new languages, visiting historical places of importance and one and one time with parents explaining things as opposed to be one of 30 in a class getting the boring curriculum shoved down my throat.
This is the same argument that's repeated over and over again on the Disney forums to justify a term-time trip to WDW. Scary thing is that the parents think it's true.

brickwall

5,192 posts

209 months

Sunday 26th July 2015
quotequote all
jonamv8 said:
I had loads of time off during term time when schools werent like concentration camps. Learnt far more in a week away with my parents than at school. New cultures, new languages, visiting historical places of importance and one and one time with parents explaining things as opposed to be one of 30 in a class getting the boring curriculum shoved down my throat.
That's great for you. But:

a) I don't think that's the justification given by the OP. There is no 'educational' case - it's purely work/convenience driven.
a) Even if might be true for you and your lucky culture-vulture parents who took you to interesting places, it's not for most 'holidays'. I don't see much historical interest being peddled in this season's Thomas Cook brochure, and the beach/pool is often more top-of-mind.
c) Even where parents think the holiday is educational, it's often not, and it's even less likely to be as educational as a week in school. As Sheepshanks says, some parents genuinely believe the educational argument applies for DisneyWorld.

Lastly, education in the UK has changed enormously in the last 15 years. The world is more competitive. Standards are higher. Schools are, by-and-large, a lot better. As a result, the 'cost' of missing school is a lot higher.

Sheepshanks

32,530 posts

118 months

Sunday 26th July 2015
quotequote all
brickwall said:
Lastly, education in the UK has changed enormously in the last 15 years. The world is more competitive. Standards are higher. Schools are, by-and-large, a lot better. As a result, the 'cost' of missing school is a lot higher.
The other thing is that it's a nightmare for teachers - gone are the days of saying "hard luck - copy it off the person next to you" if kids miss something. You see 1 child - the teacher is dealing with 30 or so.

That said, schools sometimes do daft things - my daughter's school was in last Monday and Tuesday whereas most finished the previous Friday. Nothing much got done in those 2 days.

surveyor

17,768 posts

183 months

Sunday 26th July 2015
quotequote all
It's only in the recent 'Gove' years that this state control over our Holidays has really been laid out.

As a parent I'm not going to apologise for making my own judgement as to when to go on holiday. When we get to GCSE years etc. clearly they are important. Primary school kids are not going to be massively disadvantaged by a week off, depending on how much other time they have off etc....

Pickled

2,051 posts

142 months

Sunday 26th July 2015
quotequote all
brickwall said:
Whilst I have full sympathy with the difficulties of seasonal businesses, I'm a bit surprised by the attitudes on here.

School is important. Really important.

Typically a child might be expected to miss 1-2% of lessons each year for unavoidable reasons (illness, other school commitments). If you take a week's holiday in term-time, that is immediately another ~2.8%. These kinds of numbers do have an impact on learning.
Sorry I disagree, I went to a private school and on average had 6 weeks more holiday per year than the non private school, so that throws your percentages out straight away.

We've taken our daughter out for a week a couple of times and it hasn't effected her schooling at all, as most times it was either the first or last week of term when they don't tend to do much in the way of schooling. There is much more to education than being stuck in a classroom.

And I won't even go into the debate of inset days and strikes...

Hoofy

76,253 posts

281 months

Sunday 26th July 2015
quotequote all
SystemParanoia said:
just tell the school the kids were ill
"Yeah, the tan is from radiotherapy. The docs caught the cancer really early and dealt with it quickly. Aren't the NHS wonderful?" *nod while quickly backing out of the head's office*

Sheepshanks

32,530 posts

118 months

Sunday 26th July 2015
quotequote all
Pickled said:
Sorry I disagree, I went to a private school and on average had 6 weeks more holiday per year than the non private school, so that throws your percentages out straight away.
If they were directly comparable like that then hardly anyone would use private schools.

And the ones that we know absolutely forbid term-time holidays. Unless it's some massively expensive skiing trip that the school is organising, of course.

Edited by Sheepshanks on Sunday 26th July 16:14

brickwall

5,192 posts

209 months

Sunday 26th July 2015
quotequote all
Sheepshanks said:
That said, schools sometimes do daft things - my daughter's school was in last Monday and Tuesday whereas most finished the previous Friday. Nothing much got done in those 2 days.
Completely agree.

And don't get me started on INSET days and strikes.