Buses and red lights especially in London

[supermono]

First of all let's ignore cycles in this thread...

It seems bus drivers have a two second rule when it comes to red lights, as a motorcyclist, cyclist and pedestrian in London I can't rely on a red light stopping a bus, black cabs too to a lesser extent.

These things are riddled with cameras as far as I can tell, yet it happens so much they must be overlooked somehow -- I'm certain if I ran red lights as often I wouldn't last long with a clean licence (or my life!)

So what's they story? Anyone know how they get away with it??

[nitrodave]

They're huge and slow, so it looks to you as though they're jumping the lights.

Chances are they started moving when it was changing to red and by the time the whole vehicle is across the junction it would have been red for a few seconds making it look like they jumped the lights.

[jodypress]

That's one view but living in London the general standard of bus drivers is appalling.
They do go through red lights a lot and love to block junctions, especially the yellow box junctions. Mainly as there are no repercussions for them.
Who dishes out those fines??? Well TFL of course.

[marting]

I had thought the same thing myself, very poor standard of driving on the whole!

[BJG1]

They also have a habit of jumping them just before they change green. Strikes me as really dangerous if someone the other side decides to jump the light as it turns red.

[DonkeyApple]

marting said:

I had thought the same thing myself, very poor standard of driving on the whole!

I hadn't really noticed any increase in red light jumping but bus drivers have catagorically become far more aggressive in their driving.

But I don't blame them directly. The roads are far more busy, other road users more aggressive and far less civilised. When I was a child in London you would always let a bus away from a stop, it was just one of those given elements of civilised society. Today, most car drivers will try everything they can to stop a bus getting out. Playing chicken with oncoming traffic is perfectly common.

On top I that the average bus customer is also more of a fking idiot than ever before and with the lowest levels of manners and civility than ever before.

If I were a bus driver then in less than a day I would have rammed a dozen low rent, self important scrotes in their crapulous German utility boxes into walls and I would definitely have stopped the bus before the end of the day and taken an axe to every vegetable inside.

And so to my point: TFL should not ever employ people like me. Bus driving in London was simply better when they employed incredibly chilled West Indian Brits. The current trend of seemingly employing people who are either angry at a base level or believe that today is a good day to die is certainly not helping.

Driving a bus in London is very clearly best done by professional stoners.

[CaptainMorgan]

I've been down to London a few times on the bike recently, I noticed a few kamakazi bus drivers but I also notice a couple of nice polite ones, hand out the window as a thank you for slowing as they pull away etc. I suspect the drivers are no worse in London than anywhere else, just the sheer number of them in the capital means you're quickly going to find a knob.

As for the light jumping, I think thats already been answered, locally we have a few sets of lights that change quickly, a bus can pass before their light changes to amber and it they still be crawling over the junction when the next lot are turning green, it's in a built up area so never causes an issue thankfully.

[Billsnemesis]

I don't support the idea that bus drivers have that hard a time. They are under pressure to keep their runs to time and that does push them to test the limits of getting through the lights but in their defence hitting the brakes too sharply in a bus could end up with a pile of grannies crushed against the windscreen.

What I have seen and experienced from drivers is racial abuse directed at passengers, a refusal to move when someone jumps on at the rear doors without paying, or even confront the perpetrators to ask them to leave the bus, rude and aggressive attitudes to passengers and a direct threat from one of them to punch me.

On several occasions I have asked drivers for their badge numbers only to be refused, even though legally they are required to give their full badge number to anyone who asks for it. In one case a driver who accused me of theft had to confirm his number in front of the BTP who he had summoned because we got on the bus early. He had left the engine running and nipped off for a brew and it was entertaining watching the police ask him why he had left a bus vacant with the engine on. By the time he was due to start work the following day the bus company had my full complaint, including a direct quote of his appalling language and later told me that he did not turn up so they viewed that as a resignation.

A friend of my daughter suffered a broken leg when he was rammed off his bike by a bus driver who was prosecuted, although for a driving offence rather than assault with a deadly weapon as he would have been in the States.

It is not an easy job but a very small minority of the drivers are barely fit to be called humans let alone be responsible for the safe transport of fifty or sixty people at a time.

That does tarnish the reputation of others who I am sure just want to go to work, drive their routes and go home again. I feel sorry for them.

[DonkeyApple]

Eh? Good on those drivers who take freeloaders to task. Wish they all did.

[Adrian E]

I work in central London - you do tend to find a mix, as you'd expect with any sample. The majority drive in quite an aggressive way, as do most London drivers. They'll come hammering up to a pedestrian crossing and rather than being in a position to stop if necessary (ignoring the stupidity of pedestrians crossing when they shouldn't) they'll usually lean on the horn as they go hammering through the lights and luckily most of the time people manage to scuttle out of the way.

Blocking of junctions (particularly multiple buses trying to get away from large bus stops) is flaming annoying as it adds to the congestion and makes it difficult for bikes and pedestrians to get through.

There is a balance on the red light running - with large vehicles (I have an artic licence) you get to a decision point where you have to continue through the junction. With a bus that 'should' take account of the risk of your passengers getting thrown out of their seats, or sent flying like skittles if there's loads of standees. Whether drivers in London are particularly bad at making that decision early, or failing to anticipate the light changing to red, is a different matter.

[oyster]

DonkeyApple said:

When I was a child in London you would always let a bus away from a stop, it was just one of those given elements of civilised society. Today, most car drivers will try everything they can to stop a bus getting out. Playing chicken with oncoming traffic is perfectly common.

This is prevalent outside of London too.

It's not just discourteous though - it's in contravention of the highway code.

But never mind, so long as the car drivers got to their destination 4 seconds quicker, it's ok to take the risk.

[DonkeyApple]

oyster said:

DonkeyApple said:

When I was a child in London you would always let a bus away from a stop, it was just one of those given elements of civilised society. Today, most car drivers will try everything they can to stop a bus getting out. Playing chicken with oncoming traffic is perfectly common.

This is prevalent outside of London too.

It's not just discourteous though - it's in contravention of the highway code.

But never mind, so long as the car drivers got to their destination 4 seconds quicker, it's ok to take the risk.

It's probably because bus wkers aren't paying road tax?

From one perspective, I wonder if giving priority to buses would be better. Arguably they are transporting 50 employees or shoppers all supporting the economy as opposed to one chap in a car?

[Joeguard1990]

DonkeyApple said:

It's probably because bus wkers aren't paying road tax?

From one perspective, I wonder if giving priority to buses would be better. Arguably they are transporting 50 employees or shoppers all supporting the economy as opposed to one chap in a car?

You are supposed to give priority to buses, not wonder about it haha! If you see a bus indicating to upll out do the right thing and let it out.

[catman]

nitrodave said:

They're huge and slow, so it looks to you as though they're jumping the lights.

Chances are they started moving when it was changing to red and by the time the whole vehicle is across the junction it would have been red for a few seconds making it look like they jumped the lights.

I once saw 2 double-deckers (one behind the other) go through a red light. Before the first one went through, the lights had been red for possibly 5 seconds...

Tim

[someday]

Abellio, to just use one company as an example, get an agency to hire Romanian drivers. After the agency takes their cut the drivers are on minimum wage. Why would you worry about red lights when if you get the sack you can flip burgers for the same money?

The old drivers at my company with the old contracts who are pulling mid £30k's plus overtime, drive around like grannies cos if they get the sack they will never be able to get another job that pays as well.

Pay peanuts get monkeys.

[twister]

Billsnemesis said:

a refusal to move when someone jumps on at the rear doors without paying, or even confront the perpetrators to ask them to leave the bus

If these are TfL services you're referring to, then it'll be company policy that prevents them from doing anything beyond either ignoring the freeloaders or sitting there waiting patiently for them to work out that the only way they're going to get the bus to take them anywhere is to pay for it. Leaving the cab to confront a passenger is a definite no-no. I'd guess other areas have similar policies too.

[Tomo1971]

nitrodave said:

They're huge and slow, so it looks to you as though they're jumping the lights.

Chances are they started moving when it was changing to red and by the time the whole vehicle is across the junction it would have been red for a few seconds making it look like they jumped the lights.

Which should still incur a fine and points. If any of the vehicle goes past red light/white stop line its the same.

[Cliftonite]

Tomo1971 said:

Which should still incur a fine and points. If any of the vehicle goes past red light/white stop line its the same.

You are correct regarding the law. But you have clearly had no experience of driving long vehicles in traffic. It is just not possible to guarantee compliance (and keep passengers safe and comfortable - a PCV driver's prime objective) in the real world.

[flemke]

DonkeyApple said:

It's probably because bus wkers aren't paying road tax?

From one perspective, I wonder if giving priority to buses would be better. Arguably they are transporting 50 employees or shoppers all supporting the economy as opposed to one chap in a car?

Let's not forget trends that have, at least in London, contributed to private vehicle drivers' sometimes negative attitudes towards buses, such as:

- Growing numbers of red buses on the road, at least in part the result of privatisation and subsequent subsidies to bus operators.

- Growing numbers of bus lanes, shrinking the scarce space available for private vehicles.

- Congestion Charge for private vehicles.

- Increasing bureaucratic pressure on private vehicles' effects on the environment, whilst bus-and-taxi-only Oxford Street remains by some measures the most polluted street in the world.

- Buses are typically the noisiest vehicles in London. Ever try talking on your mobile when one of those leviathans is roaring past?

- As noted above, the portion of London bus drivers who are simply obnoxious louts.


I am not implying that these are easy problems to overcome, but it is not surprising that the tolerance of car drivers towards buses is perhaps not what it was years ago.

[goneape]

I imagine quite a bit of it is to do with passing the point of no return a lot sooner than you do in a car, due to the weight/mass and inability to brake hard to make a safe stop; but I also think there's a large element of "I'm big and red, so fk you" going on. As said above, sometime the infringement is so blatant it can't be anything but ignorance. Pulling away while a car is alongside completing an overtake seems to be a favourite as well; fair enough, in heavy traffic, otherwise they'd be waiting all day but I've seen a few people get caught out/stranded where the bus stop is within 50 yards of a central island/refuge. Not on, bus blokes.