Aircraft down at Blackbushe?
Discussion
Eye witness accounts indicate that he was over halfway down the length of the runway when he landed, and it is alleged travelling significantly faster than usual so might not have been close to stopping.
For various reasons have spent a lot of time looking at runway length at Blackbushe and received many explanations as to why aircraft that couldnt do commercial flights from there can go.
For various reasons have spent a lot of time looking at runway length at Blackbushe and received many explanations as to why aircraft that couldnt do commercial flights from there can go.
Oh it will fit on RW25 at Blackbushe at typical weights. But not with the various safety margins that apply to public transport flights which will typically require an extra 40 - 66% more Tarmac than actually required.
If you were selling tickets on that Phenom and you had two commercial pilots flying it then they couldn't use Blackbushe unless very light with a decent headwind.
Private flights are not subject to the same rules which is probably why they crash more frequently.
He ballsed that approach up and had plenty of time to bin it and try again. Sadly he did not. Some of those cars were important to people who had just bought them.
If you were selling tickets on that Phenom and you had two commercial pilots flying it then they couldn't use Blackbushe unless very light with a decent headwind.
Private flights are not subject to the same rules which is probably why they crash more frequently.
He ballsed that approach up and had plenty of time to bin it and try again. Sadly he did not. Some of those cars were important to people who had just bought them.
converted lurker said:
Yes it's not 'far off' the length required with suitable margin for safety that public transport regs demand. He was probably not far off coming to a halt when he came off the end either...
Plus he was hot and high on his approach and because he was operating single crew there was nobody else at the controls to tell him to go around. Private jet operations have grown rapidly since Mr Bin Ladens efforts in New York. Which has sucked in some questionable people and practices.
Where do you get all the data from about speed and height on the approach and who was sitting in the flight deck? We know the aircraft landed long but I haven't seen any other data about it.Plus he was hot and high on his approach and because he was operating single crew there was nobody else at the controls to tell him to go around. Private jet operations have grown rapidly since Mr Bin Ladens efforts in New York. Which has sucked in some questionable people and practices.
Simpo Two said:
converted lurker said:
Private jet operations have grown rapidly since Mr Bin Ladens efforts in New York. Which has sucked in some questionable people and practices.
Ironically I heard that one of the dead was connected with Al Quaeda.el stovey said:
converted lurker said:
Yes it's not 'far off' the length required with suitable margin for safety that public transport regs demand. He was probably not far off coming to a halt when he came off the end either...
Plus he was hot and high on his approach and because he was operating single crew there was nobody else at the controls to tell him to go around. Private jet operations have grown rapidly since Mr Bin Ladens efforts in New York. Which has sucked in some questionable people and practices.
Where do you get all the data from about speed and height on the approach and who was sitting in the flight deck? We know the aircraft landed long but I haven't seen any other data about it.Plus he was hot and high on his approach and because he was operating single crew there was nobody else at the controls to tell him to go around. Private jet operations have grown rapidly since Mr Bin Ladens efforts in New York. Which has sucked in some questionable people and practices.
It does make you wonder about what we read in the press on subjects that we have no knowledge about…
Fonz said:
Sorry to be a boring old fart but I’ll wait for the AAIB to tell me what actually happened in detail before I start posting any old crap about an aviation crash as from what I’ve read over the last 2 days about 3 incidents the media pick any opinion they can find and present it as fact.
It does make you wonder about what we read in the press on subjects that we have no knowledge about…
Yup, they just look at Twitter and and call it an unconfirmed report or look at pprune and call it expert comment. It does make you wonder about what we read in the press on subjects that we have no knowledge about…
Then the sky copter gets there to see if they can film anything sensational looking.
HoHoHo said:
Simpo Two said:
converted lurker said:
Private jet operations have grown rapidly since Mr Bin Ladens efforts in New York. Which has sucked in some questionable people and practices.
Ironically I heard that one of the dead was connected with Al Quaeda.Zulu 10 said:
Speed and height data is being discussed on a thread on Prune, because a member works for a Reading-based company who are collecting ADS-B broadcast data, mainly from LHR approach, but they happened to have captured the broadcasts from the ill-fated flight.
Thats what gave rise to the image shown on page 2 of this thread.
Discussions about crewing are, I believe, totally speculative.
Great so where was it high and fast and what were the speeds and heights. That picture posted on here doesn't really tell you anything. Thats what gave rise to the image shown on page 2 of this thread.
Discussions about crewing are, I believe, totally speculative.
Edited by Zulu 10 on Sunday 2nd August 19:19
Simpo Two said:
HoHoHo said:
Simpo Two said:
converted lurker said:
Private jet operations have grown rapidly since Mr Bin Ladens efforts in New York. Which has sucked in some questionable people and practices.
Ironically I heard that one of the dead was connected with Al Quaeda.What did they say/suggest/hear and pass on to the listening public?
Do by all means wait for the AAIB report. I certainly will. Then we can meet up back here and all agree that a single pilot Phenom made a poorly judged visual approach to a runway that was only just long enough and he touched down deep because he was a little high and fast.
The ADSB data is just as good as what the AAIB will pull of the FDR and the Phenom operating manual numbers are publicly available. It's a brave new information world folks.
Pilot error. Several in fact.
The ADSB data is just as good as what the AAIB will pull of the FDR and the Phenom operating manual numbers are publicly available. It's a brave new information world folks.
Pilot error. Several in fact.
converted lurker said:
Do by all means wait for the AAIB report. I certainly will. Then we can meet up back here and all agree that a single pilot Phenom made a poorly judged visual approach to a runway that was only just long enough and he touched down deep because he was a little high and fast.
The ADSB data is just as good as what the AAIB will pull of the FDR and the Phenom operating manual numbers are publicly available. It's a brave new information world folks.
Pilot error. Several in fact.
Great so give us this information showing how high and fast they were. Don't just keep saying the same thing without stating the actual speeds and heights and what they should be. The ADSB data is just as good as what the AAIB will pull of the FDR and the Phenom operating manual numbers are publicly available. It's a brave new information world folks.
Pilot error. Several in fact.
What ads-b data are you looking at? It can't be hard just to state some speeds and heights can it? How do you know there was just one pilot?
What are the several errors he/she/they made?
Edited by el stovey on Sunday 2nd August 20:15
Simpo Two said:
HoHoHo said:
Perhaps a clearer comment might have been helpful.
Perhaps you should stop assuming things.Personally I've not seen any press suggesting any connection with any terrorist organisations whatsoever however I've read lots of comments in the press linking the family to terrorists by name, all of which I'm sure you'll agree are probably doing so through ignorance.
That is of course unless the conversation you heard suggests otherwise?
I have seen however in the press the aircraft is owned by the Bin Laden family and four people lost their lives with a reason to be confirmed hopefully after a thorough investigation.
Edited to add I've searched for any Radio 4 comments suggesting a link and can't find any on the net at all.
Perhaps you misheard?
Edited by HoHoHo on Sunday 2nd August 21:31
Very little margin here, RWY 25, THR 324 ft, LDA 1059m, and the quoted landing distance for this aircraft is 799m at MLW, Sea Level, ISA.
Groundspeed over the threshold was 149 kts. IAS and ROD (both as of a couple of seconds previously) were 154 kts and approximately 1900 fpm (baro and inertial ROD readouts differ slightly). Height was roughly 400' AMSL (75' AAL) after correction for the QNH of 1017.
He climbed on base leg and the circuit was quite tight. Pilot was Jordanian in his late 50's. Poor circuit pattern, fast approach, high over the threshold, marginal runway selected, go around not flown. There were probably other mistakes, the lack o braking marks towards the end suggest he may have tempted to go around after touch down.
At least it was quick. Crap flying basically.
Groundspeed over the threshold was 149 kts. IAS and ROD (both as of a couple of seconds previously) were 154 kts and approximately 1900 fpm (baro and inertial ROD readouts differ slightly). Height was roughly 400' AMSL (75' AAL) after correction for the QNH of 1017.
He climbed on base leg and the circuit was quite tight. Pilot was Jordanian in his late 50's. Poor circuit pattern, fast approach, high over the threshold, marginal runway selected, go around not flown. There were probably other mistakes, the lack o braking marks towards the end suggest he may have tempted to go around after touch down.
At least it was quick. Crap flying basically.
converted lurker said:
Very little margin here, RWY 25, THR 324 ft, LDA 1059m, and the quoted landing distance for this aircraft is 799m at MLW, Sea Level, ISA.
Groundspeed over the threshold was 149 kts. IAS and ROD (both as of a couple of seconds previously) were 154 kts and approximately 1900 fpm (baro and inertial ROD readouts differ slightly). Height was roughly 400' AMSL (75' AAL) after correction for the QNH of 1017.
He climbed on base leg and the circuit was quite tight. Pilot was Jordanian in his late 50's. Poor circuit pattern, fast approach, high over the threshold, marginal runway selected, go around not flown. There were probably other mistakes, the lack o braking marks towards the end suggest he may have tempted to go around after touch down.
At least it was quick. Crap flying basically.
Cheers. 1900fpm near the ground, ouch. Groundspeed over the threshold was 149 kts. IAS and ROD (both as of a couple of seconds previously) were 154 kts and approximately 1900 fpm (baro and inertial ROD readouts differ slightly). Height was roughly 400' AMSL (75' AAL) after correction for the QNH of 1017.
He climbed on base leg and the circuit was quite tight. Pilot was Jordanian in his late 50's. Poor circuit pattern, fast approach, high over the threshold, marginal runway selected, go around not flown. There were probably other mistakes, the lack o braking marks towards the end suggest he may have tempted to go around after touch down.
At least it was quick. Crap flying basically.
converted lurker said:
Do by all means wait for the AAIB report. I certainly will. Then we can meet up back here and all agree that a single pilot Phenom made a poorly judged visual approach to a runway that was only just long enough and he touched down deep because he was a little high and fast.
The ADSB data is just as good as what the AAIB will pull of the FDR and the Phenom operating manual numbers are publicly available. It's a brave new information world folks.
Pilot error. Several in fact.
You should probably keep your views for PPRune it's a shame you stopped lurking and begun posting because all I've read from you this weekend is a one man crusade on Aviation and quite frankly it's boring. The ADSB data is just as good as what the AAIB will pull of the FDR and the Phenom operating manual numbers are publicly available. It's a brave new information world folks.
Pilot error. Several in fact.
I have expressed two opinions with reasons why I hold them. One is the Gnat accident was always likely with that aircraft and the level of risk was on the too-high side. Two is that the Phenom crash was gash flying to a too short runway.
I stand by both opinions and further suggest that this does not amount to a crusade against aviation.
In fact the interests of aviation would have been better served had my opinions been held by the regulator prior to this weekend...
If you're bored then other threads are available.
I stand by both opinions and further suggest that this does not amount to a crusade against aviation.
In fact the interests of aviation would have been better served had my opinions been held by the regulator prior to this weekend...
If you're bored then other threads are available.
out of interest only, does anyone know the operational status of Blackbushe? There seemd to be no traffic over the weekend, and flight aware shows the only planned arrival as the crashed aircraft.
This makes me think the runway is closed whilst they investigate/recover the debris. But I can't find any 'official' updates.
This makes me think the runway is closed whilst they investigate/recover the debris. But I can't find any 'official' updates.
converted lurker said:
I have expressed two opinions with reasons why I hold them. One is the Gnat accident was always likely with that aircraft and the level of risk was on the too-high side. Two is that the Phenom crash was gash flying to a too short runway.
A theory being considered on PPRUNE was that the pilot suffered a medical episode and, would ordinarily have gone around, but couldn't.Surprised that the runway was too short for the Phenom, I assumed it was based there due the close proximity of the victims home address?
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