Track Driving improvement/training/instruction?

[Undirection]

I’ve not done much of this but have a few questions:

The 'courses' all seem different so if I go to one it’s different from what I’ll learn on another, why?

Who trains the trainers? How do they get to be so good?

Some places have lots of trainers, are they all as good as each other? And (answering my own question potentially) is it simply that they are not but all are much better than the people they teach?

Do some trainers hire tracks/ track time to train people?

[Dixy]

Most track day instructors are wanabe racing drivers trying to earn some cash, as no driving is black and white what works for one may not for others, just soak up as much as you can. I always tended to ask for the oldest instructor there as they tend not to make it in to a pissing contest.

[StressedDave]

Were it my money I'd be spending, I'd look at something like the Mark Hales masterclass (absolutely no ego whatsoever) or, if you're more advanced, Rob Walker (a man who coaches F1 drivers). In my experience, it's about you learning to be the best you can rather than some failed race driver (well if they're no in F1 by that age, they've clearly failed ) making you into an inferior clone of him.

[SPR]

I guess the opposite ends of the spectrum are from the likes of Rob Walker through to the chap that sits in the passenger seat of a car all day long working for an experience company.

Work out what you want from it and go from there.

I have been racing and driver coaching for years. If you need any advice please feel free to PM me and I'll do my best to help!

Stuart Pearson

[RobM77]

I think you mean Rob Wilson? He and Mark Hales are both excellent. I've had instruction from Mark and get along with his style very well.

[james_gt3rs]

Don't get this instructor:

http://youtu.be/7TtTAf8b2sE

Not me driving, but I totally sympathise with the driver!

[Steve H]

Undirection said:

I’ve not done much of this but have a few questions:

The 'courses' all seem different so if I go to one it’s different from what I’ll learn on another, why?

They are aimed at different things. Experience days are about having having a brief opportunity to drive a special car on a track whilst acknowledging that the driver may have ideas about his driving abilities that are well beyond reality.

This is going to require a different approach to coaching an experienced trackday driver in his own car or a competitive racer trying to find the last few 10ths.

Undirection said:

Who trains the trainers? How do they get to be so good?

Do you mean good at driving or good at instructing?

Most instructors will have a motorsport background, usually racing but sometimes rally or trackday.

Learning how to instruct starts for most at one of the "race schools", these are the experience day venues that you can go and drive a supercar at. Schools will usually do some basic training on what is required for first time instructors but as with most things a lot of the real method is picked up with experience.

Undirection said:

Some places have lots of trainers, are they all as good as each other? And (answering my own question potentially) is it simply that they are not but all are much better than the people they teach?

Inevitably there will be differences, some will be good drivers but average at teaching it, some may be the other way round. If you are at places with lots of instructors then you are probably at the kind of event where it's luck of the draw as to who you get.

Undirection said:

Do some trainers hire tracks/ track time to train people?

Yep, as suggested in some of the posts above.

[Rick448]

Rob Wison ( though I've not driven with him I've seen him teaching a few times) or Don Palmer would be my recommendations. I recently did another day with Don at Bruntingthorpe and I think he is a great coach and bloody good driver.

[bearman68]

SPR said:

I guess the opposite ends of the spectrum are from the likes of Rob Walker through to the chap that sits in the passenger seat of a car all day long working for an experience company.

Work out what you want from it and go from there.

I have been racing and driver coaching for years. If you need any advice please feel free to PM me and I'll do my best to help!

Stuart Pearson

Stuart, would it be OK if I PM'd you. I'm looking to be a better driver in my MR2 - in particular,I wouldlike to understand the limit of grip.

Many Thanks,apologies for the thread hijack.

[hondansx]

My first instructor who i used for a number of years was Roberto Giordanelli. He has no ego and just the best temperament for coaching. He really taught me how to drive well, appreciate physics and how to stay safe! I'd recommend him for sure.

http://www.roberto-giordanelli.com/

Otherwise, chat to a few instructors at circuits on trackdays and you'll be surprised at the size of some of their CVs. They have the added advantage of circuit knowledge too.

[RobM77]

Undirection said:

I’ve not done much of this but have a few questions:

The 'courses' all seem different so if I go to one it’s different from what I’ll learn on another, why?

Who trains the trainers? How do they get to be so good?

Some places have lots of trainers, are they all as good as each other? And (answering my own question potentially) is it simply that they are not but all are much better than the people they teach?

Do some trainers hire tracks/ track time to train people?

Firstly, we should differentiate between being good at racing and good at instructing. As with most other sports, a coach needn't be better than the person they're teaching, in fact they often aren't. I can swim faster than my swimming coach, but that's never even registered with me; why would it? She's a fantastic coach with a huge knowledge of technique and a host of adaptable ways of teaching. She's booked up almost a year in advance! As with any sport, most racing coaches do have a background in racing, usually successful, but as with any sport they primarily need to have good teaching skills and a deep understanding of the theory behind driving fast.

In motor racing one also needs to be very careful how one analyses success and ability - I know of one instructor for instance who is regularly faster than a famous F1 driver when sharing the same car, and has won many championships by a huge margin of points, but in some racing championships that same guy has often been mid-field because he may not get a seat in the fastest car or have the fastest setup - that's just racing I'm afraid. I speak from bitter experience - I've personally won plenty of races and set many fastest laps over the years, but on the occasion that I've driven an uncompetitive car (always through budget limitations) I've been utterly slated on PH as 'crap' by people who ignore success and focus on the bad/middling results that I've had. I'm fairly sure that I've lost business coaching on this, which is why I mention it. The coach I've just mentioned had this experience too, and sadly no longer posts on here (and to be honest I stopped a week ago, returning merely to respond to this thread).

Anyway, back to the question: I've found that the quality of teaching in motor racing varies enormously. The majority of driving coaches that I've seen are just looking for work to supplement their income and help with their racing. I disagree with the "wannabee racing driver" comments above referring to these sorts of instructors, because almost all drivers privately fund their progression through the sport to some degree and it's only the select few at the very top level who will actually earn a livable wage just for driving. You'll probably find many top level GT, F3 or GP2 drivers coaching to earn money and help pay their way, and maybe even at the lower levels of F1. What's more, the people that make the very top of the sport and start earning money generally make it through opportunity, money and luck as much as raw talent. Anyway, I digress - many instructors in this position that I've worked with and had instruction from are nice people, but aren't actually very good at teaching and to be honest they don't really coach racers anyway, they just supervise Red Letter day guests and corporate guests on 'drive a Ferrari' days and similar. I've been through the sausage machine with these guys at an ARDS school and they get next to no training on how to teach, or even checking of their racing knowledge, and there are good business reasons for that - it's unnecessary for most of what they do in shagged out rev limited tin tops. Conversely, the names mentioned above (Rob Wilson, Mark Hales etc), along with many others, are dedicated driving coaches who spend their time training racing drivers and it is those coaches that I'd stick with. That's not saying there are ARDS instructors at race schools out there who aren't good teachers (I know of two in particular who are great), it's just that there's a lot of chaff for the wheat and the names mentioned above are sure bets.

Much of your choice of driving coach will depend on who you get on with best - try You Tube or Google to read and watch some of their output and you'll get a fair idea. Rob Wilson for example does a lot with Peter Wilson's F1 channel on You Tube; that'll give you a taster of his huge knowledge of the sport. Personally I'd recommend Mark Hales, who is a lovely guy, devoid of ego, extremely articulate and very knowledgeable, plus his charges are very reasonable. I think he's done some track based work in the advanced driving community too, as opposed to purely competitive motorsport.

Edited by RobM77 on Wednesday 7th October 11:59

[Mrs Muttleysnoop]

OP check out Colin Hoad at CAT Driver Training. I have done a few courses with him including at the 'Ring. He is based at Millbrook Proving Ground.

Or go to Lotus, drive their cars on their test track. Martin Donnelly is their chief instructor.

With both people you will learn so much.

[watchnut]

Interesting topic, I took my MX5 on a track day last year to see how it handles in a more controlled environment than the open road, and having the freedom to not getting caught speeding.

It is a similar car to your MR2. It is a great day out, you will learn much about your lack of ability, and the limits you are happy with the car......to a point, I paid to have some instruction. The instruction I paid for was not great for the money I paid. Yes he helped a little, but I felt I my money was not used to it's best. I did not ask around for the "best" instructor, and just wrongly assumed they would all be good for the money they were charging.

The advice above has been good, and when I next go on one I shall ask more questions first, and ask others there about the quality of instruction.

The experience has made me better on the roads...., and safer, and made me want to do more (funds permitting)

[BertBert]

Bit late to this thread. I've had quite a bit over the years (still crap though) and unless you go for personal recommendations it's a bit hit and miss. I've had superb coaching from opposite ends of the spectrum - from one of the many really good instructors who is a clubbie driver and works for JP and some manufacturers - also from a previous winner of LeMans. Both superb.

I've had terrible instruction from one of the mid-ranking ARDS/JP guys and some instruction from a very well known driver and coach that I really didn't get on with (I get on with him really well, he's a really nice chap).

So they have to be good at coaching and good at getting me to do different things to be good!

Bert
PS I should mention Ryan Hooker who has helped me and Miss Bert a lot over the years. I rate him very highly and he's a very nice person too!